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Old 11-15-2012, 04:59 PM   #176
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Default Re: Skyfall vs. TDKR

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Ooor, it's because Miranda Tate was an underdeveloped character and her reveal cheapened Bane? I'm really tired of hearing the excuse that fans didn't like Talia just because they knew it was coming. Maybe a very small minority does, but for most of us it's a problem with the film itself.
It's not just Talia but Blake too, and the back injury, and the fake death. Pretty much anything meant to resonate or elicit a strong reaction. You can't tell me those things wouldn't have a stronger impact if you weren't sitting around waiting for it to happen.

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Old 11-15-2012, 06:29 PM   #177
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Default Re: Skyfall vs. TDKR

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Bane's plan would not succeed without her, nor would he ever have been involved with LOS without her. She's on the inside, sabotaging multiple attempts to undermine their plan. People seem to forget how important she was to the story, but its incredibly evident with multiple viewings. Sure, it could've just been Bane, but I don't think that's stronger and it doesn't take advantage of a classic Batman story point.
It's got nothing to do with her importance, it's about the execution of the character. Does knowing Talia was doing wicked things off screen make her any less a dull, under used, under developed character? No, it doesn't.

Bane's plan couldn't have happened without Dr. Pavel either, but that didn't make me care about his character any more than I did for Tate/Talia.

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Old 11-15-2012, 10:25 PM   #178
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I'm not going to get into it too deeply, but you cannot write off Silva as "another Bond villain."
I certainly didn't, and I don't know that anyone here has either.

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The whole conceit is that he is their first serious post-9/11 baddie. The "non-state actor." M even has a big speech about it in the second half of the movie before Parliament...which is cut like TDK when the Joker is coming for Harvey Dent, Silva is coming for her. And why is that in-vogue right now? Because Nolan did that with the Joker and Bane in his last two Batman movies.
Wouldn't both LeChiffre and Green be considered both serious post-911 baddies and "non-state actors"?

Why would the idea of a killer coming for someone we're supposed to care about be in vogue? Because the revenge/assassination story, period, is one of the most popular plots in history/film/literature.

What do you mean it's cut like TDK? In montage?

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They even introduce a fatherly figure who helped raise Bond after his parents died in his depressing home manor which is attacked. It is very heavily influenced by what Nolan did. To deny that is simply denial.
To say that this character is heavily inspired by Nolan's take on Alfred is reaching. It's essentially the same old cliche "caretaker with a gun" we've seen a dozen times before in other films. He doesn't seem to have any story impact on James in a moral sense, he functions as an exposition device, and as someone to interact with M. The manor home being burned down, that's a bit more obvious. That, yeah, that was probably inspired in some fashion, or at least shares some serious similarities to what Nolan did. It'd be difficult to write that scene and not recognize that a recent blockbuster has used this basic idea in a key sequence. But even then...we've seen the "someone returns to sad abandoned mansion filled with sheet-covered items" in plenty of other films. That element alone isn't neccessarily some brilliant concept Chris Nolan invented. Its a staple of certain types of literature.

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Sorry, I took the "remake" language as hyperbole. That aside, I think you are downplaying the similarities and parallels a bit much as if they were simply coincidental.
No, I'm not saying they're all coincidental or I would have said that. I don't think they're all coincidental anymore than I think every single plot element is something that Mendes and the writers culled from Batman or Nolan's ideas.

The concepts of orphans, orphans going home, surrogate parents, villains setting traps for the authorities,...these existed long before The Dark Knight, Nolan's Batman series, and Batman and Bond in general. Suggesting that because Batman has some of these elements that Mendes and the writers must have taken these ideas from the recent Batman franchise...I can't agree with that. All that can be said is that basic similarities exist...which happens in film, literature, and art in general.

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The point that the director has explicitly stated TDK's influence on Skyfall aside, the parallels accumulate into an overall pervasive influence.
I think "pervasive" is a bit much. The elements that are similar to anything Nolan has done are limited to a few key sequences, and quite limited in their scope. Mendes does something entirely different with almost every basic element that the films have in common. The rest of the film doesn't really directly resemble Nolan's approach/ideas so much.

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If you critique them only one by one on a surface level, as you did, then of course each might be dismissed, but together they form a strong connection between the films that is really quite plain, I think.
I wasn't critiquing them on a surface level...more the opposite...I was discussing the details of them in order to point out that only in their basic similarities do they have much in common with The Dark Knight/Batman/Nolan connections.

Here's what Mendes said about Nolan's influence:

"In terms of what [Nolan] achieved, specifically ‘The Dark Knight,’ the second movie, what it achieved, which is something exceptional. It was a game changer for everybody," he explained about how it influenced his approach.

"We’re now in an industry where movies are very small or very big and there’s almost nothing in the middle," he continued. "And it would be a tragedy if all the serious movies were very small and all the popcorn movies were very big and have nothing to say. And what Nolan proved was that you can make a huge movie that is thrilling and entertaining and has a lot to say about the world we live in, even if, in the case with ‘The Dark Knight,’ it’s not even set in our world. If felt like a movie that was about our world post-9/11 and played on our fears and discussed our fears and why they existed and I thought that was incredibly brave and interesting. That did help give me the confidence to take this movie in directions that, without ‘The Dark Knight,’ might not have been possible. Because also, people go, ‘Wow, that’s pretty dark,’ but then you can point to ‘Dark Knight’ and go ‘Look at that – that’s a darker movie, and it took in a gazillion dollars!’ That’s very helpful. There’s also that thing – it’s clearly possible to make a dark movie that people want to see."


He's talking about the approach to making a blockbuster/action film that can be thrilling, entertaining and still serious, relevant and dark, not just about the story points he liked from The Dark Knight. He never mentions what Nolan does with the Joker, or the story itself. He's talking about Chris Nolan's use of subtext, themes and subject matter in a blockbuster movie. I think people are taking the "influence" idea a bit too far based on some vague story similarities that, in large part, Bond and Batman have always had.

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Old 11-15-2012, 11:27 PM   #179
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Like a boss, Guard

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Old 11-16-2012, 03:11 AM   #180
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Default Re: Skyfall vs. TDKR

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Bane's plan would not succeed without her, nor would he ever have been involved with LOS without her. She's on the inside, sabotaging multiple attempts to undermine their plan. People seem to forget how important she was to the story, but its incredibly evident with multiple viewings.
Yes it would have. Wanna know how? Because the writer can make it succeed. Nothing about what Bane accomplished seemed far fetched before the Talia reveal, nor did his connection with the League of Shadows. In fact an excommunicated extremist taking over a defeated LoS after their leader has been killed and using them to fulfill his own means while simultaneously saying he's there to fulfill that leader's destiny, makes a lot more sense and is a lot more intriguing than: "I hated my father. Until you killed him."

I mean, seriously.

What?

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Sure, it could've just been Bane, but I don't think that's stronger and it doesn't take advantage of a classic Batman story point.
What classic Batman story point? In the comics Talia was truly in love with Bruce and often helped him despite her father's wishes. In TDKR she's just out for vengeance.

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Old 11-16-2012, 07:40 AM   #181
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Default Re: Skyfall vs. TDKR

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Yes it would have. Wanna know how? Because the writer can make it succeed. Nothing about what Bane accomplished seemed far fetched before the Talia reveal, nor did his connection with the League of Shadows. In fact an excommunicated extremist taking over a defeated LoS after their leader has been killed and using them to fulfill his own means while simultaneously saying he's there to fulfill that leader's destiny, makes a lot more sense and is a lot more intriguing than: "I hated my father. Until you killed him."

I mean, seriously.

What?


What classic Batman story point? In the comics Talia was truly in love with Bruce and often helped him despite her father's wishes. In TDKR she's just out for vengeance.
Quoted for truth.

Talia was one of the dud characters in the flick. Bane could have been just fine and a better villain without her.

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Old 11-16-2012, 12:48 PM   #182
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Default Re: Skyfall vs. TDKR

Yeah probably could've cut her character out completely and it wouldn't have hurt the movie.

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Old 11-16-2012, 01:16 PM   #183
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Default Re: Skyfall vs. TDKR

I think the same way with Foley.

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Old 11-16-2012, 01:56 PM   #184
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Yeah probably could've cut her character out completely and it wouldn't have hurt the movie.
And yet, people would've been pissed that Nolan did this entire trilogy, actually used Ra's, but didn't use Talia.

No win situation for Nolan. The expectation was always there to use Talia the moment we found out Ra's was the villain in Begins. That was 7 years ago.

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Old 11-16-2012, 01:56 PM   #185
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Default Re: Skyfall vs. TDKR

Ideally the LOS shouldn't have been used again at all. Bane is a strong enough villain to not need to be tied to their apron strings.

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Old 11-16-2012, 01:57 PM   #186
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Default Re: Skyfall vs. TDKR

Not to mention the uproar if Bane had actually been Ra's' son.

I think the LOS helped it feel all connected and wisely avoided that "villain of the month" feel that shouldn't be there for the final chapter.

Plus, you get that really cool favored son vs. cast out son angle between Bruce and Bane which gives it that dose of epic in their rivalry.


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Old 11-16-2012, 02:03 PM   #187
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Default Re: Skyfall vs. TDKR

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I think the LOS helped it feel all connected and wisely avoided that "villain of the month" feel that shouldn't be there for the final chapter.
That's ridiculous. A new villain who was not affiliated with previous villains wouldn't have had a villain of the month feel. Especially if they were given a good story that had relevance to Bruce's journey. Joker never felt like a villain of the month. He felt like a natural extension to what happened in Begins and the foreboding of escalation.

The LOS were most certainly NOT needed to make it all feel connected. On the contrary their return after 8 years during a peace time in the city made it all feel very unnecessary and contrived.

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Old 11-16-2012, 02:14 PM   #188
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Default Re: Skyfall vs. TDKR

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Yeah probably could've cut her character out completely and it wouldn't have hurt the movie.
Deffo. She was a dullard in it anyway. Miranda was boring and Talia was too brief to even make an impression, not counting that crappy death scene hahaha.

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I think the same way with Foley.
Another waste of space.

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And yet, people would've been pissed that Nolan did this entire trilogy, actually used Ra's, but didn't use Talia.

No win situation for Nolan. The expectation was always there to use Talia the moment we found out Ra's was the villain in Begins. That was 7 years ago.
Nobody gave a damn there was no Talia in Begins. Nobody would have cared if the LOS never came back again.

I reckon Nolan only dug up the LOS again is because Joker was out of the picture because Heath is dead.

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Ideally the LOS shouldn't have been used again at all. Bane is a strong enough villain to not need to be tied to their apron strings.
Quoted for truth. He looked like Talia's pet.

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Old 11-16-2012, 02:15 PM   #189
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Default Re: Skyfall vs. TDKR

But Joker was a threat from within Gotham reacting to Batman.

If we can all at least agree that going back with an international threat was the best way to make this film the biggest without feeling like a retread of Joker, then why not the LOS? Why a new organization when you have a great character in Bane who has established history with a character and organization you've already established?

It was all there for the taking. Nolan's quote about not infinitely blowing up the balloon made a lot of sense to me when I finally saw the film.

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Old 11-16-2012, 02:17 PM   #190
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But Joker was a threat from within Gotham reacting to Batman.

If we can all at least agree that going back with an international threat was the best way to make this film the biggest without feeling like a retread of Joker, then why not the LOS? Why a new organization when you have a great character in Bane who has established history with a character and organization you've already established?

It was all there for the taking. Nolan's quote about not infinitely blowing up the balloon made a lot of sense to me when I finally saw the film.
Why did it have to be an organization at all? Why did we have to have another evil device that can destroy the city and another Al Ghul character pretending they are someone they are not?

Holy repetitive plot lines Batman.

Bane didn't need any of that Begins repetitiveness to be an aces villain. Following Ra's work just cos Talia wanted him to felt weak as hell.

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Old 11-16-2012, 02:27 PM   #191
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Default Re: Skyfall vs. TDKR

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That's ridiculous. A new villain who was not affiliated with previous villains wouldn't have had a villain of the month feel. Especially if they were given a good story that had relevance to Bruce's journey. Joker never felt like a villain of the month. He felt like a natural extension to what happened in Begins and the foreboding of escalation.

The LOS were most certainly NOT needed to make it all feel connected. On the contrary their return after 8 years during a peace time in the city made it all feel very unnecessary and contrived.
Not NEEDED, but it was the strongest way to tie it back to the central themes of Bruce's story in these films. Feel free to disagree with the execution, but for most people who've studied writing and films, this is pretty non-negotiable. I also think your understanding of Gotham and the way the LOS viewed it is still incredibly misplaced. Nolan repeatedly alludes to the city rotting from the inside despite there being less street crime.

Once again this kind of 'problem' with the movie comes down to it not doing what you wanted it to, not it being an actual fault. The execution of it, on the other hand, is completely subjective, and if it didn't work for you, fair enough. Worked for many people, however, so it's unfair to blanket it as a universal issue.

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Old 11-16-2012, 02:32 PM   #192
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I feel that I understand the LoS being used simply in tying back to Batman's origins that involved Ra's al Ghul and the League.

Imo, The Dark Knight was the wild card of the bunch, but BB and TDKR felt like the bookends of the trilogy with tying things together, such as the LoS being used. Would I have made Bane being a member of the LoS? No, but I understand why Nolan would want to use them again.

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Another waste of space.
Not just another waste of space, but the biggest. Talia could at least be viewed as making sense of why she's in TDKR, but Deputy Commissioner Foley does not. The character was a bore, was useless and the title of Deputy Commissioner makes no sense when such a position/title was no where to be seen in the past two films.

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Old 11-16-2012, 02:33 PM   #193
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Not NEEDED, but it was the strongest way to tie it back to the central themes of Bruce's story in these films. Feel free to disagree with the execution, but for most people who've studied writing and films, this is pretty non-negotiable. I also think your understanding of Gotham and the way the LOS viewed it is still incredibly misplaced. Nolan repeatedly alludes to the city rotting from the inside despite there being less street crime.

Once again this kind of 'problem' with the movie comes down to it not doing what you wanted it to, not it being an actual fault. The execution of it, on the other hand, is completely subjective, and if it didn't work for you, fair enough. Worked for many people, however, so it's unfair to blanket it as a universal issue.
The central theme could have been done without using LOS. Don't go throwing your I studied writing so I know it was the best decision crap around. Ya remind me of that Alexei thing that got banned recently for always telling people to watch more movies cos he studied and taught film.

The problem was with the movie cos it made a lazy ass choice of going back over something we already saw in the first flick. A really good creative movie doesn't need to dredge up old stuff to make a good story. Creativity means creating not rehashing.

All we got was a newbie villain playing Ra's Al Ghul 2.0

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Old 11-16-2012, 02:34 PM   #194
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Default Re: Skyfall vs. TDKR

People have argued that Bane should have had his own army. So that'd still be an organization.

Nolan wanted to make more of a war film this time. He chose to use an already existing group of militant extremists to accomplish that.

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Old 11-16-2012, 02:36 PM   #195
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The League is about restoring balance to the world. Just because Gotham's streets were cleaned up, doesn't mean the rest of the state, country, and world were doing great. Everywhere else didn't have the Dent Act. Just the idea of a Gotham businessman like Daggett using mercenaries to topple governments for natural resources is a very evil idea and a real world allegory. People knew about Daggett's deed, yet no one brought charges against him.

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Old 11-16-2012, 02:42 PM   #196
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Default Re: Skyfall vs. TDKR

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But Joker was a threat from within Gotham reacting to Batman.
Yes so?

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If we can all at least agree that going back with an international threat was the best way to make this film the biggest without feeling like a retread of Joker, then why not the LOS? Why a new organization when you have a great character in Bane who has established history with a character and organization you've already established?
Because bringing them back when they were not even needed, and behaving completely differently to the the LOS of Begins made it all utterly pointless.

Bane is a villain who can turn Gotham City in chaos without needing the LOS to siege the city. His so called hatred of Batman only came from his fixation with Talia. She's the one who had the real problem with Batman not Bane. Ra's didn't even like Bane. He kicked him out. All of this "You betrayed us" stuff sounded so phony coming from Bane.

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Why did it have to be an organization at all? Why did we have to have another evil device that can destroy the city and another Al Ghul character pretending they are someone they are not?

Holy repetitive plot lines Batman.

Bane didn't need any of that Begins repetitiveness to be an aces villain. Following Ra's work just cos Talia wanted him to felt weak as hell.
Exactly

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Not NEEDED, but it was the strongest way to tie it back to the central themes of Bruce's story in these films.
How did it do that? How did using the LOS again enhance the central theme of Bruce's story? They were the people who trained him. They came back to destroy the city again and get revenge on him for stopping them before. How on earth did that tie back to the themes of Bruce?

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Feel free to disagree with the execution, but for most people who've studied writing and films, this is pretty non-negotiable.
I've studied writing and films. I'm negotiating this.

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I also think your understanding of Gotham and the way the LOS viewed it is still incredibly misplaced. Nolan repeatedly alludes to the city rotting from the inside despite there being less street crime.
What a shame Nolan's movie never showed any inside rot in the city. Oh wait, there was one corrupt CEO, Daggett, who wanted to get his foot in the door of Wayne Enterprises.

What a rot that was to the city.

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Once again this kind of 'problem' with the movie comes down to it not doing what you wanted it to, not it being an actual fault.
No, it's an actual flaw of the movie. It's a contradiction of the characters established in the first movie.

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The execution of it, on the other hand, is completely subjective, and if it didn't work for you, fair enough. Worked for many people, however, so it's unfair to blanket it as a universal issue.
Nobody labelled it as a universal issue. A very common issue yes.

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Old 11-16-2012, 02:43 PM   #197
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Default Re: Skyfall vs. TDKR

The LOS is so critical because it has the same ultimate goal as Bruce with regards to his city, but with completely opposite methods. No other group would have been a stronger connection to Bruce from both personal and thematic purposes, with a slight twist due to new leadership. This gives you the best of both worlds - the strength of an already established entity in the world with a rich connection to Bruce, and two new villains that are great foils for our protagonist in varying but similar ways.

As for the city, the entire first act sets up an aura of discontent amongst those in need, contrasted with the opulence of the wealthy ("The rich don't even go broke the same." "You'll wonder how you lived so large and left none for the rest of us." etc.) This stuff permeates the film, maybe you'll catch it when it comes out. Bane mentions it plenty, including his line about Gotham having lived on 'borrowed time.' This is coming directly from the villains mouth, the reason the LOS still has Gotham in its sights.

IMO, your posts point to you blatantly missing clues from Nolan. Not that your points are without merit (because I can see why you feel the way you do), but that you seem to refuse to admit to any of the good things from any point (or I have never seen you do so), and you strictly focus on any negatives there might be in comparison to some theoretical film you imagine. Guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree, haha, hope you enjoy it more when you get more viewings in.

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Old 11-16-2012, 02:44 PM   #198
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People have argued that Bane should have had his own army. So that'd still be an organization.
Bane didn't need no army or organization in Knightfall. He came and he conquered. He didn't inherit the army of an old villain and then completely screw up his motives.

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The League is about restoring balance to the world. Just because Gotham's streets were cleaned up, doesn't mean the rest of the state, country, and world were doing great. Everywhere else didn't have the Dent Act. Just the idea of a Gotham businessman like Daggett using mercenaries to topple governments for natural resources is a very evil idea and a real world allegory. People knew about Daggett's deed, yet no one brought charges against him.
Yup so why weren't the LOS off sorting out the rest of the state, country or world when Gotham was doing fine?

Nobody had a clue what Daggett was up to except his little side kick and the LOS.

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Old 11-16-2012, 02:57 PM   #199
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Not to mention the uproar if Bane had actually been Ra's' son.

I think the LOS helped it feel all connected and wisely avoided that "villain of the month" feel that shouldn't be there for the final chapter.

Plus, you get that really cool favored son vs. cast out son angle between Bruce and Bane which gives it that dose of epic in their rivalry.
Absolutely this. Plus, just because Ra's went down in Begins, do we really think the League was completely destroyed? Considering the size of the operation that we saw in the first act of Begins, I say absolutely not.

Their reemergence feels completely organic to the story Nolan's telling, even if he did have a completely different idea about how the third film should play out before Ledger's death...

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Old 11-16-2012, 03:01 PM   #200
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Default Re: Skyfall vs. TDKR

Smuggling in the League using Daggert's corporation also makes since in the context of what Bane and Talia wanted to achieve when it comes to the complete and utter destruction of Bruce Wayne.

Yeah, the League could've gone all "Red Dawn" and just dropped in on Gotham and started their conquest but that's not the point of the elaborate plan they conceive.

This film, frame to frame, moment to moment, is one giant character piece. THEY. WANT. TO. BREAK. HIM. PERIOD. Totally and completely.

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