Skyfall vs. TDKR

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Yes so?



Because bringing them back when they were not even needed, and behaving completely differently to the the LOS of Begins made it all utterly pointless.

Bane is a villain who can turn Gotham City in chaos without needing the LOS to siege the city. His so called hatred of Batman only came from his fixation with Talia. She's the one who had the real problem with Batman not Bane. Ra's didn't even like Bane. He kicked him out. All of this "You betrayed us" stuff sounded so phony coming from Bane.



Exactly



How did it do that? How did using the LOS again enhance the central theme of Bruce's story? They were the people who trained him. They came back to destroy the city again and get revenge on him for stopping them before. How on earth did that tie back to the themes of Bruce?



I've studied writing and films. I'm negotiating this.



What a shame Nolan's movie never showed any inside rot in the city. Oh wait, there was one corrupt CEO, Daggett, who wanted to get his foot in the door of Wayne Enterprises.

What a rot that was to the city.



No, it's an actual flaw of the movie. It's a contradiction of the characters established in the first movie.



Nobody labelled it as a universal issue. A very common issue yes.

Quoted for truth.

[rickfox]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Ra's didn't even like Bane. He kicked him out. All of this "You betrayed us" stuff sounded so phony coming from Bane.

without Ra and LOS,Bane could still sit at bottom of pit and waiting death.

so no gratitude?

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by rickfox

without Ra and LOS,Bane could still sit at bottom of pit and waiting death.

so no gratitude?

Nope. Bane was kicked out because Ra's hated him for being a reminder of that pit and what missus Al Ghul went through.

He was doing it for Talia cos he loved her.

[rickfox]

Originally Posted by The Joker

What a rot that was to the city.

Proceeds go to the big fat spread. It's not about charity, it's about feeding the ego of whichever society hag laid this on

[J.Howlett]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Nope. Bane was kicked out because Ra's hated him for being a reminder of that pit and what missus Al Ghul went through.

He was doing it for Talia cos he loved her.

So? Got something against Bane being in love with Talia?

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by J.Howlett

So? Got something against Bane being in love with Talia?

Yep. It made him look weak. Bane was her lapdog willing to make himself toast just for her. Pale imitation of the hardcore Bane of the comic who comes to Gotham like a boss, takes it over, and breaks the Bat cos he wants it. Not for any woman.

[rickfox]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Nope. Bane was kicked out because Ra's hated him for being a reminder of that pit and what missus Al Ghul went through.

He was doing it for Talia cos he loved her.

so someone SAVED HIM FROM HIS miserable life / a chance of new life ,AND he has no gratitude at all?

common sense

[J.Howlett]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Yep. It made him look weak. Bane was her lapdog willing to make himself toast just for her. Pale imitation of the hardcore Bane of the comic who comes to Gotham like a boss, takes it over, and breaks the Bat cos he wants it. Not for any woman.

Just because this Bane was in love doesn't diminish the fact that he, indeed, comes to Gotham like a boss and executes the plan with utter brutality and no regard for human life, even within his own men.

He's a ****ing monster in this film. The striking opposite image of Bruce Wayne and what he might have become if he'd follow Ra's all the way.

What goddamn film were you watching?

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by rickfox

without Ra and LOS,Bane could still sit at bottom of pit and waiting death.

so no gratitude?

He only did that because Talia went and got her father and sent him back. It's Tallia he has to thank for that, just as she has him to thank for surviving the pit. But once Bane was taken in Ra's resented him and eventually excommunicated him.

[J.Howlett]

Originally Posted by The Joker

He only did that because Talia went and got her father and sent him back. It's Tallia he has to thank for that, just as she has him to thank for surviving the pit. But once Bane was taken in Ra's resented him and eventually excommunicated him.

Just because Talia's the one he needs to show gratitude towards doesn't mean he didn't believe in the philosophies of the League and Ra's.

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by J.Howlett

Just because this Bane was in love doesn't diminish the fact that he, indeed, comes to Gotham like a boss and executes the plan with utter brutality and no regard for human life, even within his own men.

Talia's plan, Talia's vendetta cos it was her pappy who was killed, and his organization.

Talia was the one waffling on about the slow knife and all of that. She was obviously the brain behind this. Bane was just the errand boy carrying it out.

He's a ****ing monster in this film. The striking opposite image of Bruce Wayne and what he might have become if he'd follow Ra's all the way.

Ehhh no cos he wasn't following the methods of Ra's. Ra's didn't nuke cities in peace time.

What goddamn film were you watching?

A really poor one called The Dark Knight Rises.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by J.Howlett

Just because Talia's the one he needs to show gratitude towards doesn't mean he didn't believe in the philosophies of the League and Ra's.

Talia's the one who got him into the LOS. Talia's the one who wants to honor her father by completing his work. Talia's the one who wants to punish Bruce for killing her father. Talia was the one who had a personal stake in this. Not Bane. He was only in this by association to Talia.

Where do you get the impression in all of this that Bane is the one driving this vendetta?

[J.Howlett]

Gotham wasn't fixed. That's the point. Begins even points this out when Rachel goes underground and shows Bruce that the city is rotting.

Just because organized crime has been stopped doesn't mean Gotham's fixed. Society can rot from the top. We see moments of this in our own world everyday...

[J.Howlett]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Talia's the one who got him into the LOS. Talia's the one who wants to honor her father by completing his work. Talia's the one who wants to punish Bruce for killing her father.

Where do you get the impression in all of this that Bane is the one driving this vendetta?

Didn't say he was driving the vendetta but that doesn't mean he doesn't believe either. We're talking about two different things.

[rickfox]

Originally Posted by The Joker

He only did that because Talia went and got her father and sent him back. It's Tallia he has to thank for that, just as she has him to thank for surviving the pit. But once Bane was taken in Ra's resented him and eventually excommunicated him.

who was the one lead LOS?--little girl or Ra?

Ra did not have the option not to do exactly as she said? he must obey?

excommunicated him----any level near the deed that save him from his doomed life in pit?

where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this prison is the worst hell on earth... Hope. Every man who has ventured here over the centuries has looked up to the light and imagined climbing to freedom. So easy... So simple... And like shipwrecked men turning to sea water from uncontrollable thirst, many have died trying. I learned here that there can be no true despair without hope.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by J.Howlett

Gotham wasn't fixed. That's the point. Begins even points this out when Rachel goes underground and shows Bruce that the city is rotting.

Begins points it out when the city was at it's worst. Full of crime and corruption.

In TDKR, crime stats were so low that Jim Gordon was going to be retired by the Mayor. Blake makes a joking remark that the Police will soon be left to do nothing but collect overdue library books.

Just because organized crime has been stopped doesn't mean Gotham's fixed. Society can rot from the top. We see moments of this in our own world everyday...

What other problems did the city have that was so bad it needed to be destroyed? Some nonsense about the rich being greedy?

[J.Howlett]

Do you believe corruption only comes from organized crime? Dagget's a prime example. The congressman's another. Gordon's another example.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by rickfox

who was the one lead LOS?--little girl or Ra?

Ra did not have the option not to do exactly as she said? he must obey?

excommunicated him----any level near the deed that save him from his doomed life in pit?

Obviously he didn't HAVE to obey, the point is he did it because Talia sent him there. She says that in her monologue.

Hence why Bane owes his survival to Talia. She sent her father back to save him.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by J.Howlett

Do you believe corruption only comes from organized crime? Dagget's a prime example. The congressman's another. Gordon's another example.

Daggett was working for the LOS. Every single city in the world has a Daggett. Someone who can be bribed to do dirty deeds. Does that mean every city in the world needs to be bombed and is hopelessly corrupt and rotten because there's some dishonest individuals like that in it?

What did the congressman do that was so wrong?

Yeah, what Gordon did was wrong. But he did it at Batman's suggestion, and for the good of the city.

[BatLobsterRises]

They both owe each other their survival, that's why I see their relationship on a more equal footing. They have a strong reverence for one another.

And as I've said, Gotham is the world's greatest city. The point is precisely that every city has Daggetts. But Gotham has the greatest symbolic value. Ra's knew that.

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

They both owe each other their survival, that's why I see their relationship on a more equal footing. They have a strong reverence for one another.

Bane loved Talia. She said so. Ra's hated that, too.

And as I've said, Gotham is the world's greatest city. The point is precisely that every city has a Daggett. But Gotham has the greatest symbolic value. Ra's knew that.

Yup and Ra's wanted to kill it when it was in a rotten hopeless kinda state.

[J.Howlett]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

They both owe each other their survival, that's why I see their relationship on a more equal footing. They have a strong reverence for one another.

And as I've said, Gotham is the world's greatest city. The point is precisely that every city has Daggetts. But Gotham has the greatest symbolic value. Ra's knew that.

Thank you....

[J.Howlett]

Yup and Ra's wanted to kill it when it was in a rotten hopeless kinda state.

It still is, from a different point of view. Why do you think Alfred kept pushing Bruce to find another way to help the city? The problems of the city need some one like Bruce Wayne, just as the city needed Thomas Wayne and what he did for the city back then.

He didn't crime fight. He built a cheap, public transportation system. That's a way to help the city, even if it's small.

Why do you think Wayne donates his home as a home for orphans? It's a call back to the philanthropic ways of his father.

Organize crime was not the only problems in Gotham. The whole trilogy, especially aspects of Begins and the first act of Rises, drive this point home.

[BatLobsterRises]

Plus, from the LOS' POV, the state Gotham is in has nothing to do with how the world would supposedly rebuild itself in the wake of its destruction. That's where the craziness of Ra's comes into play.

And I never said Bane didn't love Talia. But he idolized her before that. Hence reverence.

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by rickfox

who was the one lead LOS?--little girl or Ra?

Ra did not have the option not to do exactly as she said? he must obey?

excommunicated him----any level near the deed that save him from his doomed life in pit?

Do ya really think Ra's would have gone near that pit or even saved Bane's bacon if his widdle girl went and told him about it and asked him to go and rescue the guy who saved her?

Yeah don't think so. Talia is the one who saved Bane's ass.