Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfect?

[rickfox]

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

One of the worst parts about TDKR is the underdeveloped relationship between Bruce and Selina (but also Bruce and Miranda as well). It works fine for most of it, and I could buy that after more time they would fall in love and maybe even end up together. But as it stands it doesn't make sense to me that Bruce and Selina live happily ever after in Italy together.

it make perfect sense to me--every line of their conversation,every secne inovlve their presence is leading the relationship to that moment.

there is a time gap between the bomb explosion and the secne of that cafe( on the bank of Arno river near Florence)

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by Mindreaper21

I've seen all 3 films and I stand by what I say. TDK changed everything. That fact that Bruce was trying find a way to stop being Batman all for Rachel's affection made her the center of the story. He believed that if he had her, his pain would end. Everything else revolved around that. Bruce didn't seem to have a worry in the world about the thing that is supposed to haunt him most, which is the death of his parents. Nearly every decision Bruce made had something to do with Rachel. After TDK he gave up, because after losing Rachel, bringing her killer to justice, and failing to save a man that she cared for as well as deeming him to be his successor, he felt he had nothing left to fight for. Instead of fighting for justice like he swore by, he became selfish...Yes, I did say Rachel never really wanted to be with Bruce, because she always had an excuse and constantly told him that she couldn't be with him unless he changed certain things about himself. She led him astray and was cold to him up until her death.

Even in TDKR, Bruce lashed out at Alfred over Rachel and Alfred didn't come back until Bruce's "funeral". So, Alfred's and Harvey's loss had something to do with Rachel. Like I said though, TDKR is a poor attempt to connect to entirely different stories. Like it or not, Rachel became the core of Bruce's pain, and not his parents. Even Alfred was trying to get Bruce to get over Rachel and find love the whole time. You can look at the Trilogy on the surface with all the villains, Batman fighting for his city, and all the pain he hold's in. Though, if Rachel lived to be in TDKR, I guarantee she would be at the center again. Eventually in the end, he got over Rachel and found a successor, but it took the entire trilogy to get to that point.

Originally Posted by Mindreaper21

Yes, Bruce was under the assumption that once Gotham didn't need Batman that he and Rachel could be together, because she told him that. So Bruce went out looking for someone to take his place so that it could happen. This became his motivation. Then, The Joker just so happen to get in the way of his plan and cleverly twisted Bruce's life. When Bruce was put in a situation where he had to save either Harvey or Rachel, he chose her. When He realized that Harvey was in the room with the bomb, you could tell that Bruce didn't really want to save him, but he wasn't going to just let him die. After Rachel died, he felt responsible for Harvey for two reasons. Harvey was going to take his place to save the city as well as because he knew that Rachel cared for Harvey. Then Harvey died and he felt that he failed Rachel as well as Gotham. In TDKR, Bruce's motive to be Batman once again had changed. Though you could clearly tell he was still in pain after losing her and he still searched for a successor. I agree that the entire film wasn't about getting over Rachel and, just as you said, it was a big part of the film. Rachel, even after her death, was a huge part of the entire trilogy and it wasn't until it was near the end that he finally started to get over her.

Quoted for truth.

Love these posts. Some smart cookies in here today.

Originally Posted by Shikamaru

No, you are not the only one that feels this way. I am an avid fan of the Nolan films and of Batman in general. I loved The Dark Knight. It is my favorite comic book movie to date and is in my opinion one of the greatest movies ever made period (in the top 10, if not, then definitely in the top 20 and in the top 5 movies of the 2000's). I loved Batman Begins as well. It is in my opinion the best superhero origin movie to date as well as one of the best movies ever made (somewhere in the top 50) and in my top 5 favorite comic book movies to date.

On the other hand, I absolutely hated TDKR. It was a mess from start to finish and it shocks me that it was directed by Christopher Nolan. I can write a whole essay on the stupidity behind this movie. In fact, I can write multiple essays. However, I've been arguing and discussing the movie for months now and at this point, I'm sick and tired of repeating myself over and over again.

In a nutshell, TDKR fails for the following reasons:

1. As a stand-alone movie in general, it fails because a lot of scenes contradict other scenes in the movie, there are many plot holes, and a lot of the character motivations make no sense and are underdeveloped.

2. As a sequel to BB and TDK, it fails because it ignores/contradicts many themes, plot points, ideas, character arcs and development that were established in the first two movies. It ignores and contradicts many things from both movies but it specifically contradicts TDK - almost everything in it. I would almost go as far as to say that you shouldn't watch TDKR at all if you watched TDK and loved it and you don't want it ruined for you.

3. As a Batman movie, it fails because many characters do not act like how they're supposed to. Bruce/Batman himself is horribly out of character throughout the movie and a lot of the main messages in the movie are very anti-Batman.

Basically, TDKR is to BB and TDK what The Phantom Menace was to the original SW trilogy but to a much lesser extent (as in TDKR doesn't bastardize BB and TDK as much as TPM bastardized the original film trilogy and Star Wars in general).

Since I don't feel like repeating myself over and over again like I did for the whole past summer, I'll leave you off with this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbtxrM5TBAc

It is a podcast a couple of friends of mine did discussing all the issues with the movie and expanding on the basic flaws the movie has that I already mentioned above. I wasn't in the video but we discussed a lot of the stuff they brought up in the podcast before they started recording so they basically speak for me.

Also check out this review:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS65Xv6jqlA
It is a commentary on the movie. The guy analyzes the movie piece by piece starting with the opening scene up until the ending and exposes all the problems it has and more specifically, all the problems each individual part has. Great commentary IMO.

Feel free to let me know what you think. And although I said I'm sick of listing the flaws the movie has, I am willing to discuss the movie if anyone addresses any specific point my friends talked about in their vid (or any point the guy in the commentary talked about).

Originally Posted by Shikamaru

Thank you. I'm surprised though that someone actually watched the one-hour long video. lol



I share the exact opposite opinion. The first time I saw TDKR in theatres, I thought it was a good movie on its own even though I still held the opinion that it wasn't a good Batman movie or a good sequel. I went to see it a second time hoping my opinion would change but I turned out disliking it even more the second time.

The thing about TDKR is that it addresses a lot of great ideas and themes in each individual scene but the whole movie falls apart when you put those scenes together and when you take them in the context of the film. An easy example would be the scene where Batman first returns and the senior cop in the police car tells the rookie cop "We're in for a show tonight, kid." At first, a fan's reaction to that scene would be something among the lines of "OMG This is a great scene! They took that great scene from Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns and adapted it in this movie! Good job Nolan!" But when you sit down and think about it, that scene makes no sense in the context of the film. In TDK Returns, everyone knew Batman served as Gotham's hero for years so when that senior cop sees his return, it makes sense that he would slow down the car, get relieved, and tells his rookie partner he is in for a show. In TDK Rises, every cop other than Gordon thinks Batman is a murderer and not a hero so it makes no sense at all for that cop to have the same reaction as the cop in TDK Returns thus that specific moment of the scene falls apart. This is just a small easy example. There are many more examples throughout the film including more major ones.

One good thing I have to say about TDKR is that it is the closest we got to seeing Batman's detective and strategy skills from the comics in a movie. It is also the closest we got to seeing a Goddamn Batman in live-action and what I mean by that is that we almost got a Batman that can do almost anything possible simply because "He's the Goddamn Batman". Too bad that the "Goddamn" aspects of Batman in this movie were very poorly executed (at least in my opinion).

Also, there is another problem that I have with the movie from an adaptation point of view that wasn't brought up in the videos I linked (or at least I don't remember them being brought up). You do not try to make the Batman character in your movie like the retired Batman in The Dark Knight Returns if your movie is a sequel to 2 movies that were all about Batman in his early career as a crimefighter still trying to fully figure out how to operate. It just doesn't make much sense to me.

It's a really darn shame the movie turned out the way it turned out IMO. It had SO much potential with the concepts they used (Bane, Knightfall elements, No Man's Land elements, etc.).

Oh man the awesome posts are just filling this thread.

Awesomeness. Epic posts. Ya nailed why TDKR fails. Gonna listen to your vids later. That hour long one is a doozie I bet. It would take an hour to talk about all of the flaws in Rises.

Originally Posted by Doc Samson

That being said, I do think TDKR stands out from the trilogy in a number of ways, most of them negatively in comparison to the other films, at least to me. Had it been a bit better, I would say this trilogy could've challenged those of other genres as one of the best of all time.

Yup. Rises lets down the side compared to Begins and Knight.

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

One of the worst parts about TDKR is the underdeveloped relationship between Bruce and Selina (but also Bruce and Miranda as well). It works fine for most of it, and I could buy that after more time they would fall in love and maybe even end up together. But as it stands it doesn't make sense to me that Bruce and Selina live happily ever after in Italy together.

Miranda's was crap and a crap character in general. She has like two quick scenes with Bruce then they have sex. Yeah right, Nolan. Selina was an aces character but yup the development was really lacking and it was too unbelievable to think Bruce faked his death and upped sticks to spend his life with a cat burglar.

[Brain Damage]

Originally Posted by rickfox

it make perfect sense to me--every line of their conversation,every secne inovlve their presence is leading the relationship to that moment.

Actually, Selina spends the first third of the movie screwing Bruce over, is hardly in the second third, and then helps him with a few things in the third. Now, admittedly those few things are very important, but other than killing Bane/chasing the truck, Selina had her own interests in mind - the clean slate and getting out of Gotham. So because she risks her life to help him/Gotham, Bruce decides to drop everything and run away with her?
I don't buy it. Especially not after he shared such a strong emotional connection with Rachel in the last two movies, comparatively, Selina seems little more than a school-boy crush.

there is a time gap between the bomb explosion and the secne of that cafe( on the bank of Arno river near Florence)

And that's where their romance develops? In the time gap? I'm sorry but I watch the movie that's on the screen.

[batfreakforever]

The dark knight trilogy is perfect. Why you say? Because I said so. Better than star wars,yes. Lotr, yes. Indy, yes. Do have to prove it. No I don't. Not one bit.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

I don't buy it. Especially not after he shared such a strong emotional connection with Rachel in the last two movies, comparatively, Selina seems little more than a school-boy crush.

They had the hots for each other and clearly had a mutual respect. There was definitely the potential for love to blossom there, they just needed to get out of Gotham. It's not like Bruce in these films is any sort of expert on love or feelings. His feelings for Rachel were very immature too and based in chidhood. With Selina at least she was accepting of Bruce as Batman. She wasn't scared of that part of him like Rachel was. She wanted to skip town with him and live happily ever. Considering Bruce already has his retirement plan mapped out at that point, why wouldn't he want a lovely lady by his side when there are feelings there on both sides?

I liked the way that they played Bruce and Selina's romance in a subtle way. The whole "we're both scarred and damaged" aspect is there somewhat implicitly, but it didn't need to be re-hashed since it was done so well and memorably in Batman Returns. The thing that spoke volumes to me is immediately after she kicks down his cane and backflips out the window, the very next shot is of Bruce standing right up. Rising. Very symbolic. She's the first thing that awakens some sign of life in Bruce in the film.

[The Guard]

I'm going to review those videos here in a bit, but can I just point out that nowhere in the film does it ever state that Bruce and Selina are going to live happily ever after? What matters is that at the end of the film, Bruce is happy, and that he is with Selina. There's nothing inherent there to suggest that it will last, or that they'll marry or be together forever, or any of that. He's on a date/spending time with a woman he likes and that he has some things in common with. He's making an attempt to live a normal life, and he's moving on from his previous obsessions, and they're both starting over in a sense, and doing it together, and that's what matters in the final scene. Not whether Selina and Bruce are soulmates, or whether she's The One, or any of that.

[BatLobsterRises]

Exactly. They're trying to live normal lives which is a huge step for both of them.

[The Guard]

I just think people are getting a bit hung up on who Bruce had the deeper connection with. It's kind of a moot point. He's not choosing Selina over Rachel because he has a deeper connection with her or anything like that (their relationship is fairly thinly developed, as was his relationship with Rachel) but because he's now at a place in his life where he can move on...and because Rachel is no longer an option...being dead and all.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

I'm hoping this does happen for you Joker, cause I respect your opinion and I know we'll probably never see 100% eye to eye on the film but I'm hoping that you and others who were highly disappointed will at least be able to make your peace with it and appreciate the good that's there rather than getting too tripped up on the negatives.

Thanks for the nice words. You're a rare breed on here. A fan who can defend the movie, recognize an opposing opinion, and not just label it as "fanboy whining" or something equally juvenile.

There does seem to be a misconception that I hate or even dislike this movie. I don't. Far from it. I enjoyed it a lot. I think it was a good movie. Very much looking forward to getting it on blu-ray. However I do think it's quite flawed, and does not live up to the standards Nolan set in the previous two movies. I loved both Batman Begins and The Dark Knight on a first viewing, and subsequent viewings just made me love them even more.

There's every chance another viewing of it may quell my disappointment and make me appreciate it more. As I said it's happened to me before with other movies. I don't see it getting worse in my eyes. That rarely happens for me.

But there is plenty for me to enjoy in the movie even if my opinion doesn't change. I love everything with Selina Kyle. She's one of my top 5 characters in the trilogy and what I think is Catwoman finally done well on screen in terms of being like the comic book counterpart. I love Bane breaking Batman. Pure Knightfall. I love the fall out between Bruce and Alfred over Rachel. I love Batman's big comeback, the epic Cop chase. I love how Harvey Dent is so revered by Gotham (my only disappointment is not seeing the horrified reactions to him being exposed as a fraud). I love Gordon carrying a massive guilt over Dent. I love the No Man's Land elements to Bane's siege. I love Bane's Blackgate speech. I love Bruce's scenes in the pit. I love the final scene with Gordon and Selina before Batman takes the bomb away. I love that he got a happy ending with Selina. If ever Bruce was going to end up with someone I think it would be Selina. I've always been pro Selina as Bruce's most defining love interest. I was so glad Nolan went that route.

There's enough in there for me to love that I can enjoy this movie and feel it is a good movie. Maybe I'll like it more when I see it again. Maybe I won't. I hope I do.

Originally Posted by Shikamaru

Thank you. I'm surprised though that someone actually watched the one-hour long video. lol

It wasn't a visual aided video, so it helps I could leave it playing in the background listening to it while doing other things

I share the exact opposite opinion. The first time I saw TDKR in theatres, I thought it was a good movie on its own even though I still held the opinion that it wasn't a good Batman movie or a good sequel. I went to see it a second time hoping my opinion would change but I turned out disliking it even more the second time.

The thing about TDKR is that it addresses a lot of great ideas and themes in each individual scene but the whole movie falls apart when you put those scenes together and when you take them in the context of the film. An easy example would be the scene where Batman first returns and the senior cop in the police car tells the rookie cop "We're in for a show tonight, kid." At first, a fan's reaction to that scene would be something among the lines of "OMG This is a great scene! They took that great scene from Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns and adapted it in this movie! Good job Nolan!" But when you sit down and think about it, that scene makes no sense in the context of the film. In TDK Returns, everyone knew Batman served as Gotham's hero for years so when that senior cop sees his return, it makes sense that he would slow down the car, get relieved, and tells his rookie partner he is in for a show. In TDK Rises, every cop other than Gordon thinks Batman is a murderer and not a hero so it makes no sense at all for that cop to have the same reaction as the cop in TDK Returns thus that specific moment of the scene falls apart. This is just a small easy example. There are many more examples throughout the film including more major ones.

I'd never even considered that. I was too caught up in the idea that it was a cool nod to The Dark Knight Returns. But as others have said it could have been a subtle way of saying that not all the Cops think Batman murdered Dent. But then again it could just be Nolan sacrificing logic for a comic book nod.

I'd be curious to hear some of your other little examples like these.

One good thing I have to say about TDKR is that it is the closest we got to seeing Batman's detective and strategy skills from the comics in a movie. It is also the closest we got to seeing a Goddamn Batman in live-action and what I mean by that is that we almost got a Batman that can do almost anything possible simply because "He's the Goddamn Batman". Too bad that the "Goddamn" aspects of Batman in this movie were very poorly executed (at least in my opinion).

Personally I think his detective skills were shown best in TDK with;

- Using the marked bills to track the mob's money in the banks
- Getting the fingerprint off the shattered bullet
- Constructing the sonar machine to track down the Joker
- Cross referencing the names in the database with addresses in the vicinity of Loeb's funeral to get Melvin White's address

Also, there is another problem that I have with the movie from an adaptation point of view that wasn't brought up in the videos I linked (or at least I don't remember them being brought up). You do not try to make the Batman character in your movie like the retired Batman in The Dark Knight Returns if your movie is a sequel to 2 movies that were all about Batman in his early career as a crimefighter still trying to fully figure out how to operate. It just doesn't make much sense to me.

Yes, I do agree that seems very off for any adaption of Batman. If there had been a larger time gap between Begins and TDK then it might not seem so daunting. But then that wouldn't have worked for the story of TDK, where Batman was still a rookie, unprepared for criminals like the Joker, not prepared for the big can of worms his presence in Gotham would open with the copycats, the Joker, the escalation etc.

It's a really darn shame the movie turned out the way it turned out IMO. It had SO much potential with the concepts they used (Bane, Knightfall elements, No Man's Land elements, etc.).

There was a lot of wasted potential I agree, though I don't feel there was quite as much of it as you do which is a shame. Maybe if you view it again your opinion may change for the better. Has that ever happened to you before with a movie?

Originally Posted by Alex Logan

I don't see what you're seeing here. Where are you getting this idea from? The only cop that thought Batman was a murderer is Foley. I never got that feeling from anyone but him, the rest just seemed to be following orders.

Well considering there was only three Cop characters in the movie; Gordon, Blake, and Foley, there really is nobody else to get any impression from regarding Batman and his guilt or lack thereof.

[747]

You're definitely not the only one, but I'm not one of you! Infact, I think BB is what is keeping the trilogy from being closer to perfect.

[Anno_Domini]

Reading your sig, it feels as though Batman Begins was perfect enough, though.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by The Joker

There's enough in there for me to love that I can enjoy this movie and feel it is a good movie. Maybe I'll like it more when I see it again. Maybe I won't. I hope I do.

Great attitude to have.

I also very much appreciate not being labeled an "apologist" or a "Nolanite" for defending the film, so it works both ways.

I'm starting to get fired up for the Blu-ray myself. This movie is gonna look great on my brand new 47 inch LED

[Anno_Domini]

HATE the term 'Nolanite'.

And I hate it even more when people assume the term's for everyone who loved Nolan's work since Following when the word was only created because of Nolan's Batfilms.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Great attitude to have.

I also very much appreciate not being labeled an "apologist" or a "Nolanite" for defending the film, so it works both ways.

It's because you're not anything like that. You can at least recognize an opposing point of view, even if you don't share it, and you don't dismiss it as whining or anything silly like that.

As I said you're a rare breed.

I'm starting to get fired up for the Blu-ray myself. This movie is gonna look great on my brand new 47 inch LED

Have you got BB and TDK on blu-ray?

[rickfox]

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

Actually, Selina spends the first third of the movie screwing Bruce over, is hardly in the second third, and then helps him with a few things in the third. Now, admittedly those few things are very important, but other than killing Bane/chasing the truck, Selina had her own interests in mind - the clean slate and getting out of Gotham. So because she risks her life to help him/Gotham, Bruce decides to drop everything and run away with her?
I don't buy it. Especially not after he shared such a strong emotional connection with Rachel in the last two movies, comparatively, Selina seems little more than a school-boy crush.



And that's where their romance develops? In the time gap? I'm sorry but I watch the movie that's on the screen.

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=393763

http://forums.superherohype.com/show...=389401&page=3

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=390219

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=391823

[Brain Damage]

Originally Posted by rickfox

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=393763

http://forums.superherohype.com/show...=389401&page=3

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=390219

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=391823

Which posts exactly are you referring to?

[rickfox]

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

Which posts exactly are you referring to?

better read them all--(those discussions related to B.w&Rachel,B.W&S)

[747]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Reading your sig, it feels as though Batman Begins was perfect enough, though.

True. And perfect isn't the word I would throw around personally, just wanted to address the topic title. I love the trilogy as a whole but just loves TDK and TDKR a little bit more than BB, which doesn't mean I don't love BB too.

[Brain Damage]

Originally Posted by rickfox

better read them all--(those discussions related to B.w&Rachel,B.W&S)

No thanks.
Again, if you want to bring up specific posts/points, I'll be happy to discuss them with you.
But I'm not gonna go searching through old threads for an argument.

[rickfox]

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

No thanks.
Again, if you want to bring up specific posts/points, I'll be happy to discuss them with you.
But I'm not gonna go searching through old threads for an argument.

because you missed or ignored it from the begin

same as ---after more than 3 months to this very moment someone still say that B.W is dead

[Brain Damage]

Originally Posted by rickfox

because you missed or ignored it from the begin

same as ---after more than 3 months to this very moment someone still say that B.W is dead

Um. What?

I made a point.
You responded to it.
I responded to that.
You responded with links to some threads.
I said I wouldn't go searching through them and you can bring up any arguments or points you want to make into this thread.

What exactly did I miss or ignore from the begin?

[redhawk23]

I would agree with you if Begins and The Dark Knight hadn't already accomplished that task.

[Quasimod0]

No trilogy is perfect

[Deserana]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Yes, I do agree that seems very off for any adaption of Batman. If there had been a larger time gap between Begins and TDK then it might not seem so daunting. But then that wouldn't have worked for the story of TDK, where Batman was still a rookie, unprepared for criminals like the Joker, not prepared for the big can of worms his presence in Gotham would open with the copycats, the Joker, the escalation etc.

See from the first two I never got the feeling that this was a Bruce determined to take on being Batman forever. I always thought once he done his job he'd try and move on in TDK he was more than ready to give up the cowl because of Dent. And even at the end of TDK he was willing to give up being Batman for the good of the city of course Rachel's death and Harvey's downfall complicated things to the point where he only believed he had Batman left yet he stopped being Batman as he simply thought he wasn't needed. If Bruce was determined to make this his life work in Begins I don't think he would have given up.

So this makes the time gap easier to swallow as I just saw at Bruce thinking it was the time Batman needed to return.

[RustyCage]

Yeah. I mean, there are improvements here and there (like the combat scenes), but overall it's a mess to the point that I'm even sort of embarrassed and frustrated as a fan and think some of it is downright silly, so regardless of the nice little upgrade here and there, it breaks the solidity of the trilogy.

It's going to feel strange seeing it on my shelf next to the Begins and TDK boxes.