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Old 11-09-2012, 08:06 PM   #126
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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Originally Posted by Brain Damage View Post
Um. What?

I made a point.
You responded to it.
I responded to that.
You responded with links to some threads.
I said I wouldn't go searching through them and you can bring up any arguments or points you want to make into this thread.

What exactly did I miss or ignore from the begin?
Take it from one who knows, mate. Spare yourself a lot of frustration and stop replying to rickfox. It will go on forever.

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Originally Posted by Deserana View Post
See from the first two I never got the feeling that this was a Bruce determined to take on being Batman forever. I always thought once he done his job he'd try and move on in TDK he was more than ready to give up the cowl because of Dent. And even at the end of TDK he was willing to give up being Batman for the good of the city of course Rachel's death and Harvey's downfall complicated things to the point where he only believed he had Batman left yet he stopped being Batman as he simply thought he wasn't needed. If Bruce was determined to make this his life work in Begins I don't think he would have given up.

So this makes the time gap easier to swallow as I just saw at Bruce thinking it was the time Batman needed to return.
I'd agree with that if Batman Begins and The Dark Knight didn't send the message that Bruce was in for a much longer journey as Batman than that. It was never going to be as easy as he made it out to be by just taking out the mob and setting an example.

Instance 1; Bruce gravely under estimated the threat to Gotham in Begins. It wasn't Falcone that was the the major threat, it was the LOS

Instance 2; He didn't expect to cause bad inspiration to Gotham via the copycats and the Joker

Instance 3; Rachel left Bruce because she felt he was always going to need Batman

Instance 4; The Joker said he and Batman were destined to do battle forever

Instance 5; Alfred said Bruce can endure as Batman because he can take it

Instance 6; Gordon said they were going to hunt Batman because he can take it

We were basically being given the message Batman was going to be around for a long time. Now if Batman quits, he's not enduring and he's certainly not being hunted. It's not hard to sit at home while the Police aimlessly search for someone they don't even know or doesn't even exist any more. I don't think anyone was thinking when they saw Batman speed off on the Bat-Pod and get labelled a Dark Knight at the end of TDK that he was heading home to quit. I certainly never expected Dent's legacy to have such a dramatic effect so quickly that he was never needed as Batman again after that night, even though the Joker was captured. I believe this why some people feel TDKR contradicted some of the themes and messages the other two movies had.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyCage View Post
Yeah. I mean, there are improvements here and there (like the combat scenes), but overall it's a mess to the point that I'm even sort of embarrassed and frustrated as a fan and think some of it is downright silly, so regardless of the nice little upgrade here and there, it breaks the solidity of the trilogy.

It's going to feel strange seeing it on my shelf next to the Begins and TDK boxes.
Comparing it to Begins and TDK is the thing that really makes it fall short to me because I see the big step down in quality it is. I'm trying not to do that and am hoping a re-viewing of it will make it look better.

Every time I visit the TASM forum people are saying it's got better in their eyes since they bought it on DVD/blu-ray.

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Last edited by The Joker; 11-09-2012 at 10:42 PM.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:06 PM   #127
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Have you got BB and TDK on blu-ray?
Actually, no. I just moved, but my previous roommate had the Blu-ray player, along with BB & TDK, so I've watched them plenty on Blu-ray. I just got a new TV and Blu-ray player, so I'm probably going to wait for the Deluxe Trilogy box set next year. I'm going to have to double dip for TDKR though, because I know won't be able to wait that long to own it.

I just really hope they fix the transfers for BB and TDK when they do the new set. And TDKR too, if they do a bad job with it.

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Old 11-09-2012, 10:17 PM   #128
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

I'd still say the word I'd describe TDKR is jarring. I mean TDK was pretty big but both BB and TDK were still very concise stories they were far more character films.

I've always been shockd at the amount of people who want Nolan for Justice League. He is by far and away my favourite Director but with TDKR and Inception he proved that big ensemble casts with big stories aren't really his areas (though I still enjoy them both immensly).

TDKR went for scale and it just didn't seem right its like BB and TDK were the fuse and TDKR was the huge explosion. Looks great but really clashes with the previous films. I think this is a film that will certainly get better the more I watch it.

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Old 11-09-2012, 10:33 PM   #129
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brain Damage View Post
Um. What?

I made a point.
You responded to it.
I responded to that.
You responded with links to some threads.
I said I wouldn't go searching through them and you can bring up any arguments or points you want to make into this thread.

What exactly did I miss or ignore from the begin?
until this moment,

did you respond to BatLobsterRises( 10:57 AM)-- who did bring up ...posts/points

no? then that is why I provide those links

--------------------------

miss or ignore it--- I refer to those previous discussions which been brought up ever since july 20th


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Old 11-09-2012, 10:42 PM   #130
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Take it from one who knows, mate. Spare yourself a lot of frustration and stop replying to rickfox.
oh, here comes the one keep saying it is Very basic math,yet just can't show everyone how Vote numbers + weight of vote = score average---by put real figure into your formula to set an example----52 votes-- 8.8(380991) ---slip to 8.6(380939)

http://forums.superherohype.com/show...=393295&page=9

of course it is frustration, I understand that

PS: over 160 posts I wrote in this forum,how many IDs(people) I have been discuss with/response with?

and you and ID Fudgie fit into this frustration category(come up with conjectures rather than facts in the first place)


Last edited by rickfox; 11-09-2012 at 11:50 PM.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:43 PM   #131
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

For the record, I want to say that I am very impressed with the level of civil and calm communication in this thread. It's one of the only TDKR threads on the internet that seems to be this way at the moment. Everywhere else I went (though I admit I didn't check most of the TDKR section in fear it would be the same as everywhere else), the threads would be full of Nolanites and fanboys in general. I'm very surprised by this thread and I hope it stays that way. And if I sounded a bit too angry in my first post here (things like "I can write multiple essays on the stupidity of this film!" may have been me going too far), it is because I was expecting a more "Nolanite thread" than this thread actually was so I apologize for that.


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Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
I loved both Batman Begins and The Dark Knight on a first viewing, and subsequent viewings just made me love them even more.

There's every chance another viewing of it may quell my disappointment and make me appreciate it more. As I said it's happened to me before with other movies. I don't see it getting worse in my eyes. That rarely happens for me.

There was a lot of wasted potential I agree, though I don't feel there was quite as much of it as you do which is a shame. Maybe if you view it again your opinion may change for the better. Has that ever happened to you before with a movie?
Agreed on BB and TDK. Those movies do get better with with subsequent viewings. Every time I watch them, I find or get something that I haven't picked up before and drive deeper into the themes and certain character arcs. On the other hand, like I said before, I was dissapointed with TDKR even more the second time I saw it. The reason for that was probably because, like I said earlier, I believe TDKR gets worse the more you overanalyze it while I always felt that BB and TDK got better and better the more you overanalyzed them.

Some people have told me that I shouldn't overanalyze TDKR at all but seeing as how it is a sequel to 2 films that were overanalyzed to death throughout the years and still currently hold up as great comic book movies and great movies in general (with TDK specifically being one of the most overanalyzed movies of all time and still holding up), I don't buy that excuse at all.

I personally have a theory to why TDKR turned out so bad IMO. Nolan originally had a plan for 3 Batman movies. He completed 2/3 of his plans in BB and TDK but then Heath Ledger died and since the Joker was in Nolan's plan for the third movie but Nolan wanted to honor Ledger by not recasting the Joker, so he had to cancel all his plans and come up with a plan completely new from scratch - not even a backup plan btw. I'm also assuming that Nolan was given a limited amount of time by WB to come up with a new idea for the third movie or else they would've replaced him as the director, and that Nolan didn't have time to fully plan out everything but didn't want someone else to take over his franchise and mess it up at the same time. So he rushed into production with TDKR. On top of that, I also feel that Nolan's heart wasn't in this movie and I think that may be due to Ledger's death. We know part of the reason why Ledger was suffering from stress (or whatever mental condition he was suffering from) was due to all the physical, mental, and emotional work he put into portraying the Joker, so it wouldn't surprise me if Nolan feels a bit guilty & responsible for what happened to him. I am not saying Nolan is in any way guilty or responsible for Ledger's death. Just that it wouldn't be that unrealistic or unlikely if he himself felt that way. So with those 2 factors in mind, those could be the reasons why TDKR turned out the way it is.


Quote:
But there is plenty for me to enjoy in the movie even if my opinion doesn't change. I love everything with Selina Kyle. She's one of my top 5 characters in the trilogy and what I think is Catwoman finally done well on screen in terms of being like the comic book counterpart. I love Bane breaking Batman. Pure Knightfall. I love the fall out between Bruce and Alfred over Rachel. I love Batman's big comeback, the epic Cop chase. I love how Harvey Dent is so revered by Gotham (my only disappointment is not seeing the horrified reactions to him being exposed as a fraud). I love Gordon carrying a massive guilt over Dent. I love the No Man's Land elements to Bane's siege. I love Bane's Blackgate speech. I love Bruce's scenes in the pit. I love the final scene with Gordon and Selina before Batman takes the bomb away. I love that he got a happy ending with Selina. If ever Bruce was going to end up with someone I think it would be Selina. I've always been pro Selina as Bruce's most defining love interest. I was so glad Nolan went that route.
There's enough in there for me to love that I can enjoy this movie and feel it is a good movie. Maybe I'll like it more when I see it again. Maybe I won't. I hope I do.
I partly agree with all the good points you brought up about the film. The reason I say partly is because although those are all good points and good things to look forward to in a Batman film, I would argue about half of them either don't work in the context of the movie or are not executed that well. It goes back to what I said earlier about the movie having a lot of great ideas in it but they all fall apart when looking at the movie as a whole.


Quote:
It wasn't a visual aided video, so it helps I could leave it playing in the background listening to it while doing other things
I do this all the time .


Quote:
I'd never even considered that. I was too caught up in the idea that it was a cool nod to The Dark Knight Returns. But as others have said it could have been a subtle way of saying that not all the Cops think Batman murdered Dent. But then again it could just be Nolan sacrificing logic for a comic book nod.
That could be a possibility that I admit I didn't consider but seeing as how it's almost the same scene as the scene in The Dark Knight Returns (with the only differences being the people they're chasing, the number of police cars chasing them, and Batman following the cars from the rooftops as opposed to the Batpod), I'm assuming it was most likely a comic book nod.


Quote:
I'd be curious to hear some of your other little examples like these.
I haven't debated or discussed the movie in months so I'm going to have to go back to take a look at other posts I made in the past and refresh my memory . The example I brought up was the example that sticks with me the most because it is the best example of a comic book nod that doesn't work in the context of the film (or at least we can assume it's most likely a comic book nod).

I can name some other examples that are not comic book nods but have the same problem. A good example would be the football scene. Great scene. If I was to show just that scene to someone that didn't see the movie, they would love it. But in the context of the film, it makes no sense. I still don't get what Bane is talking about in that scene. Something about someone in the crowd holding the detonator to the bomb? But they never address that. Bane just says that line and then the rest of the movie pretends like he never said that. Who exactly was the guy in the crowd that held the detonator to the bomb?

Then later in the movie, you get that great speech with Bane about how he wants to give Gotham hope. Then later on, you get that great speech with Bane about how he wants to destroy Gotham because it's still the same old corrupt city on the inside. But as you could see, both speeches contradict each other.

Quote:
Personally I think his detective skills were shown best in TDK with;

- Using the marked bills to track the mob's money in the banks
- Getting the fingerprint off the shattered bullet
- Constructing the sonar machine to track down the Joker
- Cross referencing the names in the database with addresses in the vicinity of Loeb's funeral to get Melvin White's address
Great points. You might be just right. I'll have to rewatch both movies and reconsider that.

I never understood why people said Nolan's Batman was not a detective. He definitely has detective and strategic skills; just not on the same level that the world's greatest detective would have. It makes sense too, at least in BB and TDK. Both movies take place in Bruce's very early career as a crimefighter so it's understandable why he wouldn't be on the same level as the Batman from the comics. In all honesty, Batman in BB and TDK is not that different from the Batman in Year One and Long Halloween in terms of abilities, both stories taking place in Batman's very early career. I don't get why the realism is a big problem either since Batman's world started out very grounded in reality and then escalated more and more with every story. BB and TDK are just as realistic as Year One and Long Halloween are respectively. Heck, BB is in fact a bit less realistic than Year One is.

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Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
I'd agree with that if Batman Begins and The Dark Knight didn't send the message that Bruce was in for a much longer journey as Batman than that. It was never going to be as easy as he made it out to be by just taking out the mob and setting an example.

Instance 1; Bruce gravely under estimated the threat to Gotham in Begins. It wasn't Falcone that was the the major threat, it was the LOS

Instance 2; He didn't expect to cause bad inspiration to Gotham via the copycats and the Joker

Instance 3; Rachel left Bruce because she felt he was always going to need Batman

Instance 4; The Joker said he and Batman were destined to do battle forever

Instance 5; Alfred said Bruce can endure as Batman because he can take it

Instance 6; Gordon said they were going to hunt Batman because he can take it



We were basically being given the message Batman was going to be around for a long time. Now if Batman quits, he's not enduring and he's certainly not being hunted. It's not hard to sit at home while the Police aimlessly search for someone they don't even know or doesn't even exist any more. I don't think anyone was thinking when they saw Batman speed off on the Bat-Pod and get labelled a Dark Knight at the end of TDK that he was heading home to quit. I certainly never expected Dent's legacy to have such a dramatic effect so quickly that he was never needed as Batman again after that night, even though the Joker was captured. I believe this why some people feel TDKR contradicted some of the themes and messages the other two movies had.
Agreed .


Last edited by Shikamaru; 11-09-2012 at 11:03 PM.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:43 PM   #132
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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Originally Posted by Deserana View Post
I'd still say the word I'd describe TDKR is jarring. I mean TDK was pretty big but both BB and TDK were still very concise stories they were far more character films.

I've always been shockd at the amount of people who want Nolan for Justice League. He is by far and away my favourite Director but with TDKR and Inception he proved that big ensemble casts with big stories aren't really his areas (though I still enjoy them both immensly).

TDKR went for scale and it just didn't seem right its like BB and TDK were the fuse and TDKR was the huge explosion. Looks great but really clashes with the previous films. I think this is a film that will certainly get better the more I watch it.
Interesting. Perhaps that's why I loved the hell out of the first act. It really had that kinetic energy/tone of TDK. Everything just built, and built upon Bruce coming back as Batman. And IMO - it payed off.

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Old 11-09-2012, 11:02 PM   #133
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Another major problem I have with TDKR is that we never get to see Batman kicking a corrupt hot dog vendor repeatedly in the balls.



Let's see if anyone gets the reference.


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Old 11-09-2012, 11:05 PM   #134
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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Originally Posted by Shikamaru View Post

I never understood why people said Nolan's Batman was not a detective. He definitely has detective and strategic skills; just not on the same level that the world's greatest detective would have. It makes sense too, at least in BB and TDK. Both movies take place in Bruce's very early career as a crimefighter so it's understandable why he wouldn't be on the same level as the Batman from the comics. In all honesty, Batman in BB and TDK is not that different from the Batman in Year One and Long Halloween in terms of abilities, both stories taking place in Batman's very early career. I don't get why the realism is a big problem either since Batman's world started out very grounded in reality and then escalated more and more with every story. BB and TDK are just as realistic as Year One and Long Halloween are respectively. Heck, BB is in fact a bit less realistic than Year One is.
Oh God, I hate the complaints about Nolan's Bruce/Batman not doing enough detective work. He did plenty. Heck, even in TDKR. Upon initially meeting Selina, Bruce goes right back into that "Batman" mode and figures out exactly what she was doing - dusting for fingerprints. Bruce scurries off into the cave and runs up an ID check on her. Not to mention tracking her down with the pearls because they had a tracking device on them! That is so Batman.

I always loved how in TDK Lucius tells Bruce of his suspicions of Lau dealing in illegal activity, and Bruce just smirks and tells him "OK. Cancel the deal". Then Lucius immediately recognizes that he already knew, and Bruce just smiles.

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Old 11-09-2012, 11:13 PM   #135
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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Originally Posted by rickfox View Post
oh, here comes the one keep saying it is Very basic math,yet just can't show everyone how Vote numbers + weight of vote = score average---by put real figure into your formula to set an example----52 votes-- 8.8(380991) ---slip to 8.6(380939)

http://forums.superherohype.com/show...=393295&page=9

of course it is frustration, I understand that

PS: over 160 posts I wrote in this forum,how many IDs(people) I have been discuss with/response with?
I rest my case. Take a look in that link, Brain Damage. That's exactly the kind of "discussion" you're letting yourself in for if you keep replying to him. Do yourself and this thread a favor and let that sleeping dog lie.

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Originally Posted by Shikamaru View Post
For the record, I want to say that I am very impressed with the level of civil and calm communication in this thread. It's one of the only TDKR threads on the internet that seems to be this way at the moment. Everywhere else I went (though I admit I didn't check most of the TDKR section in fear it would be the same as everywhere else), the threads would be full of Nolanites and fanboys in general. I'm very surprised by this thread and I hope it stays that way. And if I sounded a bit too angry in my first post here (things like "I can write multiple essays on the stupidity of this film!" may have been me going too far), it is because I was expecting a more "Nolanite thread" than this thread actually was so I apologize for that.
I want to say all the threads have been like that, but they haven't. It's actually been pretty bad this week in particular, but this thread has for the most part been kept civil. Mainly because the more mature people have been posting in here.

Quote:
Agreed on BB and TDK. Those movies do get better with with subsequent viewings. Every time I watch them, I find or get something that I haven't picked up before and drive deeper into the themes and certain character arcs. On the other hand, like I said before, I was dissapointed with TDKR even more the second time I saw it. The reason for that was probably because, like I said earlier, I believe TDKR gets worse the more you overanalyze it while I always felt that BB and TDK got better and better the more you overanalyzed them.

Some people have told me that I shouldn't overanalyze TDKR at all but seeing as how it is a sequel to 2 films that were overanalyzed to death throughout the years and still currently hold up as great comic book movies and great movies in general (with TDK specifically being one of the most overanalyzed movies of all time and still holding up), I don't buy that excuse at all.
Exactly. If BB and TDK can stand up to such close scrutiny then Rises shouldn't be an exception. As a big fan of TDK yourself have you ever read this;

The Symbology of Batman

The final monologue that Commissioner Gordon brings the themes from Batman Begins to their logical conclusion: Namely, that as a man, Bruce Wayne’s powers to evil crime are rather limited. As a man, he can be corrupted, he can be killed, and ultimately, he can be defeated. As a symbol he can become far more, and at the end of The Dark Knight, he becomes, to society, an uncontainable force in very much the same way the Joker was. He becomes hunted, making people believe that he cannot be controlled, that he has lost all respect for societal norms and the rule of law. As Gordon realizes he needs to blame the murders on Batman, he acknowledges not only the need for society to push their fears onto something, but their hopes as well (which he allows them to do by preserving Dent’s good name).

In order to keep from tearing itself to shreds, society needs to believe in the incorruptibility of good and the relative remoteness of evil. The Dark Knight points us to ways in which we cope with this need.

Simultaneously, it’s also made clear that, in fact, Batman never succumbs to his own dark, inner urges. In the movie, Bruce Wayne says the line, “I’ve seen what I have to become to fight men like him,” and he rejects the path he has to take to stop Joker, a man who has no rules whatsoever. In one of the more memorable scenes from the film, the two have a showdown in Gotham’s city streets, the Joker manically screaming “Hit me!” as Batman is propelled towards him in the bat pod. As much as Batman wants to annihilate the Joker, he knows he can’t violate his own moral code, and almost sacrifices himself to prevent this from happening (albeit as part of a broader ruse to capture him). Still, Batman doesn’t seek to kill evildoers, but to bring them to justice. The dichotomy that the film sets up between Joker and Batman is one of chaos vs. order. The dichotomy between Joker and Dent is one of good vs. evil…


The Triumph of Evil Over Good

“You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.”

These words, spoken by Harvey Dent in the film and its trailers, portend the inevitable corruptibility of heroes in the Batman universe. At the beginning of the film, Dent represents absolute good, a goodness that’s so pure, that has so much potential to change Gotham, that even Batman is thinking of hanging up his spurs.

Dent is referred to frequently as Gotham’s “White Knight,” a term used throughout the course of the film. I was speaking with a friend about this movie today and he pointed out that when he went to see the movie he did not anticipate “The Dark Knight” could actually also refer to Dent, a clever yet profound subtext to the film (and that’s not even mentioning the night/knight pun, which I will choose never mention again after this sentence). Indeed, Dent’s journey from light to darkness is handled plausibly and adeptly in the film, which makes his story arc monstrously tragic.

Many people have remarked on how depressing the film is and I would say that I mostly agree: The Joker’s ability to destroy that which Dent loves and turn him to the evil that he becomes is sad in a way that can only be experienced by seeing the film. But the apparent relative ease with which Joker does this is what makes the Dent storyline strike so close to home: The film makes us realize that we, as humans are limited, and that our capacity to be good is subject to the vagaries of fate and whatever the hell else decides to destroy what we love. Dent is not just a proxy for hope, he’s a proxy for us as well, reminding us of the duality that lies within each of us.


The Thin Line Between Anarchy and Order

As Nolan has stated in interviews, this movie was not meant to explore the Joker’s backstory because it’s really not that important to the film. Simply put, the Joker represents anarchy and chaos, a constant and near-unstoppable force whose origins are inexplicable (something which is made clear rather explicitly when the Joker delivers two creepily different monologues as to his scars’ origins). Many people compare Joker to other film and comic book villains but the one that I think he can be most closely associated with is Anton Chigurh from No Country for Old Men, who is a force of nature. His origins are unclear but his actions are strongly felt by those around him (to put it mildly).

The Joker is unpredictable and can’t be reasoned with, nor does he have any broader goals except to create chaos and destruction. When I saw the movie Funny Games and watched an interview Michael Haneke, I was struck by something he said: To paraphrase, he said that we as individuals have personal spaces that go unsaid but are accepted by almost everyone. When people violate this personal space, the results can be terrifying. In a similar fashion, the Joker upends the genre conventions of a villain in that he has no inhibitions and refuses to hew even to the ultra-basic moral code of criminals (see: the opening scene). When a character has no values that you as a viewer can relate to and hold on to, the results are extremely disorienting. This unmoors our basic assumptions of the person’s capabilities.

All of this comes to a head in the hospital scene, when Joker gives Harvey Dent the “It’s all part of the plan” monologue, a speech that’s chilling not just for its content and delivery, but also because of its incisive commentary for us as Americans. I will not make any overtly political statements here, except to say that the complacency with which we as Americans have accepted atrocities and miscarriages of justice committed around the world as well as right here at home may have consequences beyond what we can imagine. The Joker’s monologue points to our baffling perceptions and reactions to the events that disrupt our lives. In our society, what exactly constitutes cause for alarm? And how much sense do those standards really make?


The Terrible Logic of Human Nature

What do people do when they are put in the worst of situations? What would you do if you were given the ultimate power over someone else? The movie touches upon these questions of human nature, but they are perhaps its least developed.

We see this theme pop up several times, most notably in two separate instances. Firstly, it’s evident when Batman breaks into Wayne enterprises and gives Lucius Fox fee reign of the cell phone hackery he has perpetrated upon all of Gotham. Fox demurs, believing that one person should not have this power. People are so easily corrupted that even an initial desire to do good can ultimately lead to evil, the film seems to be saying. This is further confirmed as the entire video interface comes to a fiery end, in a spectacular Batman-programmed self-destruction.

We also see it at the very end, when two separate sets of people are given the ability to destroy each other. Given the lead-up to the film’s climactic action scene, it’s a little bit strange that the boat-bomb storyline ends in the way that it does: With both criminals and everyday citizens concluding that they won’t take another’s life just to preserve their own. Throughout the whole movie, Nolan seems to be trying to tell us we are all easily subject to the temptations of the dark side, but the rest of the movie is already so relentlessly dark that perhaps this ending was more palatable to general audiences.

Humans can’t handle power responsibly. But maybe, in our shared humanity, there is still hope for compassion.

***

At its best, The Dark Knight holds a mirror up to us as viewers and asks us to look closely, to examine ourselves as humans and as citizens. It doesn’t always do this gracefully, but it tries far more than any comic book movie in recent memory has ever done. The fact that it succeeds most of the time is a testament to Nolan’s script and artistry.

http://www.slashfilm.com/assessing-t...e-dark-knight/

Really great analysis of TDK's themes.

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I personally have a theory to why TDKR turned out so bad IMO. Nolan originally had a plan for 3 Batman movies. He completed 2/3 of his plans in BB and TDK but then Heath Ledger died and since the Joker was in Nolan's plan for the third movie but Nolan wanted to honor Ledger by not recasting the Joker, so he had to cancel all his plans and come up with a plan completely new from scratch - not even a backup plan btw. I'm also assuming that Nolan was given a limited amount of time by WB to come up with a new idea for the third movie or else they would've replaced him as the director, and that Nolan didn't have time to fully plan out everything but didn't want someone else to take over his franchise and mess it up at the same time. So he rushed into production with TDKR.
I agree. I've always felt that the Joker was going to be in the sequel. How large a role he would have had is anyone's guess, but I definitely believe he would have been in there. Apart from the immense popularity of the character, the Joker's work was not done. Batman and Gordon covered up his ace in the hole by hiding the truth about Dent's downfall, thus denying the Joker the battle for Gotham's soul which he had won by proving he could tear down someone as good as Dent.

I think it would have been Joker, not Bane who revealed the truth about Dent. I daresay it would have been handled a lot better than it was in TDKR, too.

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On top of that, I also feel that Nolan's heart wasn't in this movie and I think that may be due to Ledger's death. We know part of the reason why Ledger was suffering from stress (or whatever mental condition he was suffering from) was due to all the physical, mental, and emotional work he put into portraying the Joker, so it wouldn't surprise me if Nolan feels a bit guilty & responsible for what happened to him. I am not saying Nolan is in any way guilty or responsible for Ledger's death. Just that it wouldn't be that unrealistic or unlikely if he himself felt that way. So with those 2 factors in mind, those could be the reasons why TDKR turned out the way it is.
Well I don't know about that, but I know Nolan felt so strongly about Ledger's passing that he felt even a mere mention of the Joker in the movie would be disrespectful or hurt Heath's memory in some way. It was Nolan's call. His movie and all. But personally I don't see how referencing the Joker would have hurt Heath's memory in any way.

I mean the consequences of Joker's actions was heavily felt in TDKR. I don't see why one step further and mentioning him by name would have mattered. It's not as though people didn't notice Joker wasn't mentioned, or were not comparing Bane to Joker etc. He was on people's minds regardless of whether he was mentioned or not. You look at all the references to the tragic ends to Rachel and Harvey in TDKR and you know who was responsible for that.

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I partly agree with all the good points you brought up about the film. The reason I say partly is because although those are all good points and good things to look forward to in a Batman film, I would argue about half of them either don't work in the context of the movie or are not executed that well. It goes back to what I said earlier about the movie having a lot of great ideas in it but they all fall apart when looking at the movie as a whole.
Fair enough. I understand where you're coming from, even though we don't see eye to eye on the execution. It's all subjective. What works for one person doesn't for another.

It reminds me of a discussion we were having over the last week regarding the lack of a "Gotham voice" in TDKR. Specifically how Begins and especially TDK went to lengths to show the people of Gotham, their thoughts and reactions to the major goings on in Gotham. The rich people at the hotel dinner talking about Batman, the Cops in Police HQ talking about Batman, the Dent press conference, the ferries etc.

Whereas in TDKR we never got anything like that, and it was a movie about a revolution of the people in Gotham and they were practically ignored. Some people felt the simple image of deserted streets was enough to give their feeling on it, but many of us don't agree. We wanted to see Gotham's reaction to the return of Batman, the reveal of the Dent cover up, Bane's revolution etc.

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That could be a possibility that I admit I didn't consider but seeing as how it's almost the same scene as the scene in The Dark Knight Returns (with the only differences being the people they're chasing, the number of police cars chasing them, and Batman following the cars from the rooftops as opposed to the Batpod), I'm assuming it was most likely a comic book nod.
I'm inclined to agree. It was such a carbon copy of the scene that I think it could only be that. Aside from Blake we never saw any other Cop express doubt about Batman's guilt, and we all know the ridiculously contrived unbelievable way they had Blake have his doubts.

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I haven't debated or discussed the movie in months so I'm going to have to go back to take a look at other posts I made in the past and refresh my memory . The example I brought up was the example that sticks with me the most because it is the best example of a comic book nod that doesn't work in the context of the film (or at least we can assume it's most likely a comic book nod).

I can name some other examples that are not comic book nods but have the same problem. A good example would be the football scene. Great scene. If I was to show just that scene to someone that didn't see the movie, they would love it. But in the context of the film, it makes no sense. I still don't get what Bane is talking about in that scene. Something about someone in the crowd holding the detonator to the bomb? But they never address that. Bane just says that line and then the rest of the movie pretends like he never said that. Who exactly was the guy in the crowd that held the detonator to the bomb?
The football scene was Bane bluffing by saying he gave the detonator of the bomb to some random unknown citizen. If the authorities attempt to enter Gotham, or if anyone tries to leave, this unknown citizen will detonate the bomb.

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Then later in the movie, you get that great speech with Bane about how he wants to give Gotham hope. Then later on, you get that great speech with Bane about how he wants to destroy Gotham because it's still the same old corrupt city on the inside. But as you could see, both speeches contradict each other.
This was Bane's idea of feeding Gotham hope to poison their souls. But I ask how can Gotham have hope poison their souls when they are completely oblivious to the fact they are going to be blown up?

There's also the problem of Bane's rationale that he is completing Ra's Al Ghul's work, because Ra's only wanted to destroy Gotham when it was full of crime and corruption and beyond saving. Even in the Ra's Al Ghul dream Bruce has Ra's says "You yourself fought the decadence of Gotham, and all you managed to achieve was based on a lie. You see now why Gotham is beyond saving and must be allowed to die". That is the real logic of the LOS. They would want to destroy Gotham after learning the peace time is all based on lies.

It would make sense if Bane knew about the Dent lie BEFORE coming to Gotham to destroy it. But he didn't. He discovered it by accident when his plan was well under way. So why was Gotham to be destroyed when it was in peace time with crime statistics so low that Gordon was going to be retired by the Mayor?

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Great points. You might be just right. I'll have to rewatch both movies and reconsider that.

I never understood why people said Nolan's Batman was not a detective. He definitely has detective and strategic skills; just not on the same level that the world's greatest detective would have. It makes sense too, at least in BB and TDK. Both movies take place in Bruce's very early career as a crimefighter so it's understandable why he wouldn't be on the same level as the Batman from the comics. In all honesty, Batman in BB and TDK is not that different from the Batman in Year One and Long Halloween in terms of abilities, both stories taking place in Batman's very early career. I don't get why the realism is a big problem either since Batman's world started out very grounded in reality and then escalated more and more with every story. BB and TDK are just as realistic as Year One and Long Halloween are respectively. Heck, BB is in fact a bit less realistic than Year One is.
Exactly. Considering the time constraints within the story, with so many characters and themes to juggle, I think they showed off plenty of his detective skills.

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Old 11-09-2012, 11:31 PM   #136
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I can name some other examples that are not comic book nods but have the same problem. A good example would be the football scene. Great scene. If I was to show just that scene to someone that didn't see the movie, they would love it. But in the context of the film, it makes no sense. I still don't get what Bane is talking about in that scene. Something about someone in the crowd holding the detonator to the bomb? But they never address that. Bane just says that line and then the rest of the movie pretends like he never said that. Who exactly was the guy in the crowd that held the detonator to the bomb?

Then later in the movie, you get that great speech with Bane about how he wants to give Gotham hope. Then later on, you get that great speech with Bane about how he wants to destroy Gotham because it's still the same old corrupt city on the inside. But as you could see, both speeches contradict each other.
This is a cool discussion we have going on here. Pretty cool that of all places on the internet, it's the Bat-boards here that you're finding the most chill. Guess the Bat-section isn't as bad as people say, eh?

Now, onto your points. I listened to that audio blow by blow criticism you posted. He said the same thing about the football scene. I really think it's pretty simple.

Bane is in possession of a nuclear device, and he's just killed the only person who could disarm it. Him saying that he doesn't have the detonator is his bluff (sorta), his way of telling the US government "oh, you think you'll send in some Navy seals to assassinate me? Guess what, I've already got a revolution brewing here and I've radicalized a Gothamite who is now ready to blow this thing if you try and stop me. It could be anyone."

Now that I think about it, this serves a dark mirror of the "a hero can be anyone" theme. ("This UNSUNG HERO!") And Bane, as we know, is a dark mirror of Bruce.

It's just crazy how opinions can differ so drastically. The more I analyze TDKR, the more I come to appreciate it. I think it really says something about Nolan as a filmmaker that different people can see such drastically different things in the same film. Whether it says something good or bad about him...well, that's up to the each individual

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Old 11-09-2012, 11:50 PM   #137
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I rest my case. Take a look in that link, Brain Damage. That's exactly the kind of "discussion" you're letting yourself in for if you keep replying to him. Do yourself and this thread a favor and let that sleeping dog lie.
someone come up with conjectures rather than facts---yeh,that is good help to thread discussion for sure

and if people try to present some facts to counterview those conjectures during discussions, then you just need to throw that big word "frustration"

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Old 11-10-2012, 12:15 AM   #138
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Interesting. Perhaps that's why I loved the hell out of the first act. It really had that kinetic energy/tone of TDK. Everything just built, and built upon Bruce coming back as Batman. And IMO - it payed off.
I do in some way believe that. I adore the first hour of Rises immensely because of its slow approach. But I still feel the scope was maybe too big when compared to the other two. That doesn't mean I didn't enjoy the action. I did. A lot. But when I compare it, it jars for me. Look at the beginning of BB a small scene introducing Bruce as a kid then a small fight in a prison. Then TDK with the bank heist. Ok, bigger but still quite natural and limited, it displayed The Joker and just how ruthless he is. Then you have TDKR where its a mid-flight highjack of sorts that end up with the plane upside down and dangling with a blood transplant. The scale is so much bigger in-comparison.

The main action scene to many in TDK is a scene with the BatPod and Truck. Double that and you have the first Batman scene in TDKR its all just bigger. That would normally be fine but in the other two the fights were more contained. Then you have the final battle scene. In TDK its just in a building with a small subplot with ferries and Batman trying to stop The Joker. In TDKR its a big street-wide brawl with multiple storylines climaxing at once. The city surviving, army/cops, Selina and whether she'll come back, Gordon on the truck, Blake and the orphans, Talia reveal, stopping Talia that's HUGE. And you may call it city-wide in BB but it the bulk is still between Ra's and Batman.

I love the action scenes but I sometimes felt the scale was almost too big. It probably would have worked well if there was more time and it all felt woven in but sometimes it didn't. Time constraints was thee number 1 issue TDKR was facing. Even before it came out both myself and many others were going through the tv spots, trailers and what we know and we were all wondering the hell Nolan would fit this all in.

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It would make sense if Bane knew about the Dent lie BEFORE coming to Gotham to destroy it. But he didn't. He discovered it by accident when his plan was well under way. So why was Gotham to be destroyed when it was in peace time with crime statistics so low that Gordon was going to be retired by the Mayor?.
This thought never occured to me but I have always been under the assumption that Talia was just insane in the end. Growing up in that pit and her father throwing out Bane must have all had an effect. To me she only respected her father after he died and became so obsessed trying to fullfill his plans that no matter what state it was in she deemed it unfit to live in. Bane just followed her into it, the Dent act just gave them leverage. They bith just seemed crazy. That's how I've always read it and I understand perfectly if others didn't.

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Old 11-10-2012, 12:23 AM   #139
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This thought never occured to me but I have always been under the assumption that Talia was just insane in the end. Growing up in that pit and her father throwing out Bane must have all had an effect. To me she only respected her father after he died and became so obsessed trying to fullfill his plans that no matter what state it was in she deemed it unfit to live in. Bane just followed her into it, the Dent act just gave them leverage. They bith just seemed crazy. That's how I've always read it and I understand perfectly if others didn't.
I've nothing against an insane villain (look at my username lol), but I have to be able to buy into their insanity in that even though it's crazy it makes sense to them.

Ra's believed the only way to solve the problems of the world was to destroy them and let them rebuild. Now that is obviously an insane solution to a problem, but you can at least see why someone like Ra's would think such extremes are the only answer.

The Joker believed that people are just as bad as he is deep down when push came to shove. He set out to prove that. Crazy but you can understand why he believed in what he believed. It made sense to him and he followed a logic to that which was crazy, but still a logic. Although he was vindicated when he managed to bring Dent down to his level.

Nothing about Bane and Talia's plan makes sense in any kind of crazy logical way. She said she couldn't forgive her father until Batman killed him. I can understand that. But trying to kill a city that was the antithesis of what the LOS targeted didn't make any sense, not in a rational way or a crazy way.

Just saying she was crazy and Bane was following her wishes are not very good reasons for their motives, IMO. Especially when the previous main villains had such great motives for their goals.

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Old 11-10-2012, 12:48 AM   #140
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I've nothing against an insane villain (look at my username lol), but I have to be able to buy into their insanity in that even though it's crazy it makes sense to them.

Ra's believed the only way to solve the problems of the world was to destroy them and let them rebuild. Now that is obviously an insane solution to a problem, but you can at least see why someone like Ra's would think such extremes are the only answer.

The Joker believed that people are just as bad as he is deep down when push came to shove. He set out to prove that. Crazy but you can understand why he believed in what he believed. It made sense to him and he followed a logic to that which was crazy, but still a logic. Although he was vindicated when he managed to bring Dent down to his level.

Nothing about Bane and Talia's plan makes sense in any kind of crazy logical way. She said she couldn't forgive her father until Batman killed him. I can understand that. But trying to kill a city that was the antithesis of what the LOS targeted didn't make any sense, not in a rational way or a crazy way.

Just saying she was crazy and Bane was following her wishes are not very good reasons for their motives, IMO. Especially when the previous main villains had such great motives for their goals.
Yeah I get your point. Bane for me is my favourite villain but also the most flawed aswell (makes no sense I know). I still see no reason for Talia to even be the main villain simply because this Bane was strong enough on his own. Talia only appeared to be there for the twist however I'm not disappointed she has gone. The links with Bane and the LOS were enough for me with tie-backs to BB. Infact Bane just as a mercanary would have been fine but I do like the BB link. I think had it just been Bane and he was destroying Gotham to prove to Ra's he was worthy could have worked out fine.

Sometimes when I think about Talia/Bane I can make sense of it sometimes I'm just like "why?".

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Old 11-10-2012, 12:50 AM   #141
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I guess they still wanted Gotham destroyed. It was already targeted as a city "beyond saving" since the beginning, no matter what improvement it would show. It was the mission Ra's couldn't do, so they just mixed it up with the revenge against Bruce. Also it was somewhat as a suicidal mission, you can add that too.

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Old 11-10-2012, 01:10 AM   #142
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I rest my case. Take a look in that link, Brain Damage. That's exactly the kind of "discussion" you're letting yourself in for if you keep replying to him. Do yourself and this thread a favor and let that sleeping dog lie.
I just did, and yeah, no kidding. I appreciate the heads up

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It reminds me of a discussion we were having over the last week regarding the lack of a "Gotham voice" in TDKR. Specifically how Begins and especially TDK went to lengths to show the people of Gotham, their thoughts and reactions to the major goings on in Gotham. The rich people at the hotel dinner talking about Batman, the Cops in Police HQ talking about Batman, the Dent press conference, the ferries etc.

Whereas in TDKR we never got anything like that, and it was a movie about a revolution of the people in Gotham and they were practically ignored. Some people felt the simple image of deserted streets was enough to give their feeling on it, but many of us don't agree. We wanted to see Gotham's reaction to the return of Batman, the reveal of the Dent cover up, Bane's revolution etc.
Yup. Exactly. This movie took TDK's concept of "the battle for Gotham's soul" to the next level, but when all we see are a few brief clips of Gotham's citizens, the impact of that battle is lost.

Perhaps they intended Selina to be the voice of Gotham's people, but this doesn't work, as she is far from ordinary, and as we can tell by her brief scene with Holly (or whatever her name was) she doesn't feel the same way about Bane's revolution as the majority does.

Perhaps it was Foley, but he wasn't enough. Unlike a lot of people, I actually enjoyed his character quite a bit. But the only time he ever seems to represent the voice of Gotham's people is in the last twenty minutes of the film (when Gordon comes to his door, when he looks up at the burning bat symbol).

Both Foley and Selina do help represent the voice of Gotham's people, but it's simply not enough. Considering how well this was done in the past two movies, and how the decisions made by all the characters in this film directly affect them, it's disappointing how little we actually saw of the people's reaction to Bane's revolution.

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There's also the problem of Bane's rationale that he is completing Ra's Al Ghul's work, because Ra's only wanted to destroy Gotham when it was full of crime and corruption and beyond saving. Even in the Ra's Al Ghul dream Bruce has Ra's says "You yourself fought the decadence of Gotham, and all you managed to achieve was based on a lie. You see now why Gotham is beyond saving and must be allowed to die". That is the real logic of the LOS. They would want to destroy Gotham after learning the peace time is all based on lies.

It would make sense if Bane knew about the Dent lie BEFORE coming to Gotham to destroy it. But he didn't. He discovered it by accident when his plan was well under way. So why was Gotham to be destroyed when it was in peace time with crime statistics so low that Gordon was going to be retired by the Mayor?
I never thought about that, good point.


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Exactly. Considering the time constraints within the story, with so many characters and themes to juggle, I think they showed off plenty of his detective skills.
Agreed
He was not The World's Greatest Detective, but he was most definitely a detective. More of a detective than any of the Burton/Schumacher films have shown him to be, that's for sure.

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Old 11-10-2012, 01:44 AM   #143
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Yeah I get your point. Bane for me is my favourite villain but also the most flawed aswell (makes no sense I know). I still see no reason for Talia to even be the main villain simply because this Bane was strong enough on his own. Talia only appeared to be there for the twist however I'm not disappointed she has gone. The links with Bane and the LOS were enough for me with tie-backs to BB. Infact Bane just as a mercanary would have been fine but I do like the BB link. I think had it just been Bane and he was destroying Gotham to prove to Ra's he was worthy could have worked out fine.

Sometimes when I think about Talia/Bane I can make sense of it sometimes I'm just like "why?".
I think it works for a few reasons - it sets up both Talia and Bane as the conflicting sides of Bruce's need for Batman. Talia represents his 'vengeance for a loved one', and bane is his 'protector of the innocent'. It also allows for Talia to cut the knife much deeper for Bruce, while creating two great backstories for each villain. I don't feel like the Talia twist is cheap, although she doesn't really get enough screentime for us to really buy their closeness, but they do set it up as though they've already known each other for awhile and so it's still believable to me. Her death is still pretty lame haha.

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Old 11-10-2012, 01:50 AM   #144
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Yeah I get your point. Bane for me is my favourite villain but also the most flawed aswell (makes no sense I know). I still see no reason for Talia to even be the main villain simply because this Bane was strong enough on his own. Talia only appeared to be there for the twist however I'm not disappointed she has gone. The links with Bane and the LOS were enough for me with tie-backs to BB. Infact Bane just as a mercanary would have been fine but I do like the BB link. I think had it just been Bane and he was destroying Gotham to prove to Ra's he was worthy could have worked out fine.

Sometimes when I think about Talia/Bane I can make sense of it sometimes I'm just like "why?".
Yes and yes and yes and yes to the tenth power.
Bane was carrying the movie on his own perfectly fine up until that point. Makes me think the only reason Talia was even in the film was so Nolan could have a big "A-HA!" twist at the end.

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Old 11-10-2012, 02:05 AM   #145
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Does this movie prevent the trilogy from being perfect?

I'd say it wasn't perfect to begin with. Admittedly the mistakes and leaps in logic are significantly bigger in TDKR than the rest of the trilogy. But I enjoy it all the same despite its flaws.

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Old 11-10-2012, 02:42 AM   #146
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Deffo the worst Nolan movie and worst Nolan Batman movie. Not enough Batman in it. Too much John Blake. Bruce Wayne is like crippled on a cane or with a broken back for most of it. Bane's plan was dumb. Hated Marion Cottiard's dull character.

Anne Hathaway was the best thing in it.
I dunno why people fall back on saying this movie didn't have enough Batman in it. The whole thing was about Batman! I can honestly say it was more of a Batman movie than The Dark Knight, which was more about the Joker and Harvey Dent and social themes, honestly.

Not that the Dark Knight isn't a better movie, but people arguing this movie wasn't about Batman are really confusing me (Bruce Wayne IS Batman, btw. All that stuff you saw in the pit? That was Batman. Wayne is his facade, his public persona. Batman overcame the pit, Batman overcomes Bane, Batman sacrifices himself.)

Won't necessarily argue the other three points, though. But this was probably the most Batman-centered movie of the three.

Do I think it prevents the trilogy from being perfect? No. That would imply it was the only cause. There are many faults with Batman Begins and even The Dark Knight. I also thought it was pretty good and enjoyed its second half more than Begins' second half. Sure TDK is the best of the trilogy but for a third movie in a trilogy it exceeded my expectations, as, while they are almost never the best movie in the series, they are also pretty rarely pretty good.

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Old 11-10-2012, 09:10 AM   #147
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Does this movie prevent the trilogy from being perfect?

I'd say it wasn't perfect to begin with. Admittedly the mistakes and leaps in logic are significantly bigger in TDKR than the rest of the trilogy. But I enjoy it all the same despite its flaws.
I agree. What let me frustated is that I felt Nolan didn't maintain his approach to how he made his other Batman movies. I always felt he did what he wanted to do not bothering to what we, the fans, wanted and somehow he managed with BB and TDK to give what we needed. With TDKR he seemed to want to give us what we wanted not what we needed. Do I make any sense?

I also feel that he had the necessary elements to surpass TDK but got lazy. He has written a lot of excellent scripts but this one is his weakest. I have always known he wasn't infallible, no one is, but I didn't want him to let me down in the Batman franchise, but that what has happened and I haven't been able to "forgive" him yet.

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Old 11-10-2012, 09:40 AM   #148
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I agree. I've always felt that the Joker was going to be in the sequel. How large a role he would have had is anyone's guess, but I definitely believe he would have been in there. Apart from the immense popularity of the character, the Joker's work was not done. Batman and Gordon covered up his ace in the hole by hiding the truth about Dent's downfall, thus denying the Joker the battle for Gotham's soul which he had won by proving he could tear down someone as good as Dent.

I think it would have been Joker, not Bane who revealed the truth about Dent. I daresay it would have been handled a lot better than it was in TDKR, too.

This is basically what I thought. But I also thought that Bane would have unleashed Joker upon Gotham.

I've thought this because Bruce's experience in the Pit is supposed to mirror the people of Gotham. Bane is poisoning both with what he believes is false hope. Bruce with the apparent ease of escape, Gotham with the absence of corruption and domination of the 1%. The poison being that Bruce physically cannot escape, and every time he tries, a bit of his hope dies, and Gotham's hope would die with Joker being free, he'd realise his dream and temporarily win Gotham's soul,and thus completing his character arc on screen.


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Well I don't know about that, but I know Nolan felt so strongly about Ledger's passing that he felt even a mere mention of the Joker in the movie would be disrespectful or hurt Heath's memory in some way. It was Nolan's call. His movie and all. But personally I don't see how referencing the Joker would have hurt Heath's memory in any way.
I think it's more the fact that it might have just been too painful, both Chris Nolan and Christian Bale had become good friends with Heath and it might have been too much for them. The situation was always a double edged sword, no matter what they did (off screen explanation, recast no mention) they would all draw attention to the fact that their friend is dead.

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Old 11-10-2012, 10:22 AM   #149
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Batman Begins was Not a perfect origin movie, I still like it very much but it was flawed.

Its skipped the part where Batman learned his detective skills and many other skills. A new character is introduced as childhood friend.

Similarly, Scarecrow is not used perfectly in trilogy, in TDK Dent's dual personality is not explored in detail, instead of showing Dent's family as in comics (his wife) here Rachel Dawes is needlessly forced as Dent's love interest in the story. Batman relies on Fox (Fox has been made equivalent to Q from Bond movies) for gadgets.

Similarly, TDKR also takes many liberties from the comics, If the first two movies are not prefect by any means why look for lack of perfection only in TDKR ?


This trilogy is NOT comics Batman but rather Nolan's version of Batman, looking for perfection is absurd, it movies stand as they are, and I think that they are very well made.

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Old 11-10-2012, 10:48 AM   #150
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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Originally Posted by Bruce_Begins View Post
Batman Begins was Not a perfect origin movie, I still like it very much but it was flawed.

Its skipped the part where Batman learned his detective skills and many other skills. A new character is introduced as childhood friend.

Similarly, Scarecrow is not used perfectly in trilogy, in TDK Dent's dual personality is not explored in detail, instead of showing Dent's family as in comics (his wife) here Rachel Dawes is needlessly forced as Dent's love interest in the story. Batman relies on Fox (Fox has been made equivalent to Q from Bond movies) for gadgets.

Similarly, TDKR also takes many liberties from the comics, If the first two movies are not prefect by any means why look for lack of perfection only in TDKR ?

This trilogy is NOT comics Batman but rather Nolan's version of Batman, looking for perfection is absurd, it movies stand as they are, and I think that they are very well made.
What you just listed are ways in which Nolan's interpretation differs from the comics. But that's not (most) people's problem with TDKR, it's why you hardly hear any complaints that Talia wasn't in love with Batman and didn't call him beloved. TDKR's problems lie within the movie itself, not that it didn't abide uncompromisingly to the source material.

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