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View Poll Results: Was TDKR a letdown for you?
Yes 98 42.79%
No 131 57.21%
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Old 11-22-2012, 11:53 AM   #276
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Default Re: The Dark Knight Rises - letdown or not?

I think Ra's had a very global sense to his duties. With Gotham he had witnessed a city beyond saving. And like a rotten apple, he was gonna set it apart from the other to save them, to make a point.

"Tomorrow the world will watch in horror as its greatest city destroys itself. The movement back to harmony will be unstoppable this time."

Gotham was on the list of the League of Shadows, if the city was deemed guilty, they just kill it. Like the farmer who became a murderer in Bruce's initiation, Ra's was going to kill him. No trials, no chance for redemption, nothing. It was eye for eye.

Justice is balance. You burned my house and left me for dead. Consider us even.

As I said before, it didn't matter that Gotham got better, nor before nor after. In the eyes of Ra's, in the eyes of the League of Shadows, Gotham must have to be destroyed in order to restore balance to the world. They didn't achieve it the first time, they would try again.

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Old 11-22-2012, 11:54 AM   #277
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Default Re: The Dark Knight Rises - letdown or not?

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When Ra's speaks of the movement back to harmony, he means Gotham rebuilding itself as a balanced society. For instance he mentioned burning London to the ground. Did London cease to exist after that? No. It was rebuilt in what I assume they see as a balanced civilization.

He speaks only of crime and corruption.
Nope, London didn't cease to exist. However, the British Empire did...eventually. And the great fire of Britain occurred in 1666, during the first British Empire. It's a nice bit of historical fiction to illustrate the idea of the LOS attacking the most powerful civilizations of the time.

The idea is that the existence of these super societies, and their destruction, have an effect on the world at large.

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Old 11-22-2012, 12:02 PM   #278
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Default Re: The Dark Knight Rises - letdown or not?

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Nope, London didn't cease to exist. However, the British Empire did...eventually. And the great fire of Britain occurred in 1666, during the first British Empire. It's a nice bit of historical fiction to illustrate the idea of the LOS attacking the most powerful civilizations of the time.

The idea is that the existence of these super societies, and their destruction, have an effect on the world at large.
But it didn't have an effect on the world at large. The British Empire did not end as a direct result of that fire. The British Empire basically yielded to a rising tide of nationalism that started at the beginning of the 1900s and gathered steam after World War II. It was pretty obvious that even had Britain wanted to, there was no way it could enforce Empire control over any colony that wanted independence, particularly after having been bled so badly by World War II. So they tried to evolve the British Empire into the British Commonwealth, with varying degrees of success.

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Old 11-22-2012, 12:07 PM   #279
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Default Re: The Dark Knight Rises - letdown or not?

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But it didn't have an effect on the world at large. The British Empire did not end as a direct result of that fire.
Who said the LOS were successful with every attempt? Obviously they weren't. They attacked Gotham 3 times and failed.

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Old 11-22-2012, 12:08 PM   #280
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Default Re: The Dark Knight Rises - letdown or not?

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Who said the LOS were successful with every attempt? Obviously they weren't. They attacked Gotham 3 times and failed.
Because Ra's was speaking of what the LOS did in the past to restore balance. He said they did that by burning London to the ground. He didn't say they tried burning London but it didn't work so they tried something else.

Did it sound to you like he was citing failed attempts? No, he was talking about how they've been keeping check against the human corruption.

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Old 11-22-2012, 12:36 PM   #281
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Default Re: The Dark Knight Rises - letdown or not?

I think he's just listing the League's accomplishments. Taking credit for a historical disaster that nobody knows you perpetrated is still very alarming. He's telling Bruce, look we've done this before and we're going to do it again. Doesn't matter if you think the city can be saved- this is what we do.

Honestly, I see what you're saying. You could easily walk away from BB thinking they just hated crime. I just think Ra's and the LOS's goals had some ambiguity in them as presented in BB and there are ways to read between the lines of what he is saying. It was clear that Ra's had a distaste for Gotham's corruption, yes. But heck, he's also partially the reason it was in such a bad state in BB. I just think it's reductive to rule out their global ideals and the symbolism inherent in attacking the world's so-called "greatest city". If you're attacking the world's greatest city what does that say about how you view the world?

This is a summation of Ra's al Ghul from Comicvine:

Quote:
Ra's believes humanity is lost to corruption and dreams of purging it of it's sins. He has used several kinds of violence in his pursuit of "justice" including vigilantism, terrorism, and assassination.
To me, that's his essence in the comics and that's the same essence I feel is in the films. It's that sense of global idealism that separates him from other Batman villains.

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Old 11-22-2012, 12:49 PM   #282
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Default Re: The Dark Knight Rises - letdown or not?

In about a week and a half I may be agreeing with you. We'll see.

At this point I feel jaded talking about this over and over. It's become repetitive, and the same people saying the same thing over and over. Urge to reply because it's interesting fading....fading...

No offense to you, Batlobster. I'm not saying you're dull to talk to. Total opposite in fact. It's just this subject matter is the most beaten dead horse at this point.

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Old 11-22-2012, 12:54 PM   #283
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Default Re: The Dark Knight Rises - letdown or not?

Me too man. FULLY AGREE and I feel burdensome constantly repeating myself as I'm sure others do too. The debate has exhausted itself and then some. It will be more interesting to have some new discussions/debates (hopefully) when we've all seen the film some more.

Moving on!

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Old 11-22-2012, 01:44 PM   #284
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Default Re: The Dark Knight Rises - letdown or not?

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Quoted for truth



Yup a message that makes no sense.



Speak for yourself. Guard's posts are epic and always expose the lameness of the writing in Rises.

With that kind of overanalyzing/nitpicking, you can't enjoy ANY film.

Skyfall has met with that too, as worse as TDKR. And again I ask: why does everything need to be explained in movies these days?

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Old 11-22-2012, 03:47 PM   #285
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Default Re: The Dark Knight Rises - letdown or not?

After such a great meal today, I wish I had a great film like The Dark Knight Rises to sit down and watch. Because I kinda don't want to watch Batman Begins, The Dark Knight or Avengers since I've watched all three films already in the past two weeks.

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Old 11-22-2012, 09:05 PM   #286
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Default Re: The Dark Knight Rises - letdown or not?

I realized today that I have this $20 Best Buy gift card that is going to serve me very well on Dec 4.

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Old 11-22-2012, 11:18 PM   #287
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With that kind of overanalyzing/nitpicking, you can't enjoy ANY film.
Odd that I enjoyed THE DARK KNIGHT RISES...

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Old 11-23-2012, 05:17 AM   #288
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Odd that I enjoyed THE DARK KNIGHT RISES...
Well, we have a different meaning to the word enjoying I see.


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Old 11-23-2012, 05:23 AM   #289
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I realized today that I have this $20 Best Buy gift card that is going to serve me very well on Dec 4.
In these hard times, it's best to spend your gift card on something

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Old 11-23-2012, 08:53 AM   #290
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Default Re: The Dark Knight Rises - letdown or not?

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Yes, so Bane was to blame for that.

Bane took advantage of an existing societal ill for his advantage. He was hiring potential criminals before they went out on the streets. It is arguable the impact of the Dent Act may have been grossly overestimated.



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Yeah so? Every city has crime. Gotham's was so low Gordon was being retired. Blake said things were so peaceful that soon the Police force will be chasing overdue library books.
Blake is a rookie cop. Gordon knows what's going on behind the scenes,...because he is part of the corruption.

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Old 11-23-2012, 09:25 AM   #291
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All of this is complete and utter conjecture and not touched upon once in the whole movie.Where did Bane ever equate his life to Talia's? Or hers to his? Where did Bane ever even talk about his past beyond saying he was born in darkness?

You can only present what the movie tells you or show you.
Why is it so hard to believe Bane felt a connection to innocent child born into a prison for nothing? First off, she's a child....even hardened murderers will kill child rapists in prison. A child that grows up in same circumstances as you...and you are presented an opportunity to give her a better life than you got...that seems quite reasonable for Bane to relate to her.

You allow her to escape the prison....and then she returns unexpectedly to save you and heal you....even that can break the most self-hating hardened criminal. Her army gives him an opportunity to develop, grow, train...a means to release his frustration and exercise control over his life...you don't think a unshaken loyalty that permeates from the depths of his psychosis or soul to her? Talia was a light (in his mind) in the pit of hell...and that light rewarded him with freedom and dignity...you are surprised that Bane would equate his life to hers? When Talia utters that "Bane's only crime...was that he loved me..." did you see the tears in his eyes? No matter how many beating he took...he's willing to do anything for this friend?

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Again this is untrue. Talia clarified this definitively when she said Bane was excommunicated because he was a reminder to Ra's about what happened to his wife in the pit. Nothing to do with him being too extreme.
So Ra rescued Bane at request of his daughter...from the pit.
So Ra hired Bane into his army and tried to heal his wounds...Bane became an excellent subordinate. Then Ra excommunicated him...because he was a reminder of what happened to his family...not because of anything Bane did?
Does that really make more sense than Alfred's research?

Is Talia's explanation the true reason...or is she trying to psychoanalyze her daddy?

Perhaps we, should dig deeper.

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He couldn't work with the Police because he was being hunted by them for Harvey Dent's murder. Gordon was laid up in hospital.

What other options did he have? Sit back and let Bane do what ever he wanted? This wasn't a situation where a charitable donation to the police fund is going to help.
He could have worked with Gordon more closely...allowed Gordon to be voice of reason to his police department in creating a strategy. He didn't have to go brawl out it in a sewer.


Quote:
Yes, but the key difference is two of the villains were in a city with an overwhelming amount of corruption. Bane and Talia were not. So there was justifications and logic in the ideals of Ra's and Joker.

There was still corruption in Gotham although the details aren't discussed heavily. Gotham was becoming a police state and using heavy handed prosecution techniques to convict people. The price to pay for "safety" is lost liberty and eroding rights. The background of this climate is depressing economy which was leaving Would you want to live in North Korea?

Despite this heavy handedness of police state brutality, Dagget was confident enough to pull off the biggest example of financial theft and fraud in Gotham's history....funding overseas wanted mercenaries!! Dagget didn't fear the police at all during whole exchange...his only fear was Batman's return. Why would a wealthy man like that carry out that sort of plan unless he was confident he was pretty untouchable. The power was moving from low-level mob bosses to highly politically connected and wealthy.

The mayor sees example of budding gang growing in sewers,...and instead of accepting it head on...tries to cover it up to create an illusion of safety!

The level of corruption was compressing towards top during this period.

LOS didn't care for political presentations...they cared about the innate state of Gotham City's social and political climate...and used it to their advantage.

Even though LOS imprisoned the wealthy during their reign....there was still common people participating in the riots and looting of private property at Bane's request. One warlord seizes control..and people happily break out into riots at his request?

It wasn't just the LOS shouting for political prisoners to be executed by exile through Dr. Crane's "trial"...it was mobs of regular common Gotham City in the audience. People who look like you or me shouting for people falsely or frivolously accused to be executed....simply because the mob would be rewarded monetarily.

Doesn't that show how thinly veiled the social angst exists in that city?

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Selina is a thief, every city has thieves. Selina was not desperate, she just wanted a brand new life with the clean slate device. She couldn't start fresh because her past was always catching up to her. Every city has poor people, homeless people etc. It doesn't mean there is a massive class division.
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Where was this class division in TDKR beyond Selina saying that the rich are all fat cats who just take take take?

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What corruption in the administration was the LOS aware of? None at all.
How do you know this? How do you know what Talia or other LOS spies do or don't know about Gotham's operations? And even if you had no evidence....do you always believe there is no corruption afoot with your political enemies just because you don't have concrete evidence in front of you? Its human nature to believe your political enemies are behaving deceptively. Look at the last few presidential elections and reactions in media punditry.

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Old 11-23-2012, 11:14 AM   #292
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You're taking that quote out of context. Lets say it the way it was said in the movie;

Ra's: "The League of Shadows has been a check against human corruption for thousands of years. We sacked Rome. Loaded trade ships with plague rats. Burned London to the ground. Every time a civilization reaches the pinnacle of it's decadence, we return to restore the balance"

Bruce: "Gotham isn't beyond saving. Give me more time. There are good people here"

Ra's: "You are defending a city so corrupt we have infiltrated every level of it's infrastructure"

When Ra's speaks of the movement back to harmony, he means Gotham rebuilding itself as a balanced society. For instance he mentioned burning London to the ground. Did London cease to exist after that? No. It was rebuilt in what I assume they see as a balanced civilization.

He speaks only of crime and corruption.
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But it didn't have an effect on the world at large. The British Empire did not end as a direct result of that fire. The British Empire basically yielded to a rising tide of nationalism that started at the beginning of the 1900s and gathered steam after World War II. It was pretty obvious that even had Britain wanted to, there was no way it could enforce Empire control over any colony that wanted independence, particularly after having been bled so badly by World War II. So they tried to evolve the British Empire into the British Commonwealth, with varying degrees of success.
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Because Ra's was speaking of what the LOS did in the past to restore balance. He said they did that by burning London to the ground. He didn't say they tried burning London but it didn't work so they tried something else.

Did it sound to you like he was citing failed attempts? No, he was talking about how they've been keeping check against the human corruption.
Hell to the yeah. Save me the hassle of saying it.

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Odd that I enjoyed THE DARK KNIGHT RISES...
It's all or nothing with some, Guard. Ya can't possibly have enjoyed something but found flaws with it, too, to them.


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Old 11-23-2012, 11:16 AM   #293
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Default Re: The Dark Knight Rises - letdown or not?

I didn't see it. But I didn't like the first one. It was too dark. Not like in tone, but I mean literally. I couldn't see much during the night time scenes. I couldn't tell who's hitting who. I mean, Transformers' fights were easier to see than this.

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Old 11-23-2012, 11:21 AM   #294
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The first one? you mean second one? in Batman Begins you weren't supposed to see the Batman, that was the point. The sequels aren't like that.

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Old 11-23-2012, 11:22 AM   #295
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The first one? you mean second one? in Batman Begins you weren't supposed to see the Batman, that was the point. The sequels aren't like that.
Begins is the one that got all the shaky camera complaints. Gotta admit it was annoying.

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Old 11-23-2012, 11:23 AM   #296
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I didn't see it. But I didn't like the first one. It was too dark. Not like in tone, but I mean literally. I couldn't see much during the night time scenes. I couldn't tell who's hitting who. I mean, Transformers' fights were easier to see than this.

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Old 11-23-2012, 11:25 AM   #297
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Default Re: The Dark Knight Rises - letdown or not?

You know, at the time of the release of Batman Begins, many people noted that the way we see, (or don't see) Batman is putting a viewer in the same place as the criminals he is fighting. We are supposed to see only a wraith that is taking down some thugs.

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Old 11-23-2012, 11:27 AM   #298
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That's nice and all but it still didn't make the fight scenes any clearer or enjoyable for a lot of folk who were *****ing a blue streak over it. When ya see a fight scene ya want to be able to actually see it haha.

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Old 11-23-2012, 11:29 AM   #299
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Yeah, people complained about that back then too.

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Old 11-23-2012, 11:36 AM   #300
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Default Re: The Dark Knight Rises - letdown or not?

I never did mind the shaky camera style in Batman Begins, but I did mind someone standing in the corner after Batman had taken down all those thugs, lol.

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I didn't see it. But I didn't like the first one. It was too dark. Not like in tone, but I mean literally. I couldn't see much during the night time scenes. I couldn't tell who's hitting who. I mean, Transformers' fights were easier to see than this.

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