The Dark Knight Rises - letdown or not?

[CoolCadaver49]

Originally Posted by BlueLightning

Check this out.

It's so cool to see the comparisons like that... Also a great reference!

[BlueLightning]

Thank Travesty, it's an admirable work he has done.

[The Joker]

The thing is TDKR not only has the longest running time, but also the shortest Batman screen time. Looking at that link, it also has the shortest number of Batman related scenes. So naturally Batman's absence is felt most of all in it.

[Anno_Domini]

Does anyone have a comparison of Catwoman's screen time in Batman Returns and in TDKR?

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

Actually, I think all of those films could have used a bit more Batman in them.

I really wouldn't mind it if in the next film Batman was in it for a good 30% or so of the movie. I'd like lengthy detective work scenes and to follow Batman around a bit more. Something a bit more like the comics, where the weight is usually on Batman moreso than Bruce. It would be different.

Yeah, this would be lovely.

I have enjoyed the weight being on Bruce, I feel like that needed to be told, but now there's a lot of Batman's side of things that has been left unsaid. It's time to shake things up and rectify that.

[Anno_Domini]

Well it is indeed going to happen. Nolan obviously wanted to tell the story of Bruce that ended up telling Bruce's entire time as Batman, but now we'll be seeing a story based on a Batman that will feel everlasting as in comics, so I'm sure we'll be seeing a lot more Batman in the next reboot.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Letdown is a strong word. SM3 was a letdown. XM3 was a letdown. TDKR was just clearly not as good as it's predecessor. More like Star Wars ROTJ is to ESB and NH, as being just a clearly inferior film with a ton of rehashed ideas, but with a pretty darn good climax (that doesn't make a whole lot of sense in either ROTJ or TDKR).

[shauner111]

I think it's a better movie than TDK personally. More emotional, uplifting, a grander story, and better filmmaking (technically speaking).

[BatLobsterRises]

I think "clearly" inferior is a bit strong too, especially if you're including BB in the comparisons. I think most people would rank TDKR over BB, and it's certainly better reviewed all around. I would say TDKR is clearly different from its predecessors despite the return of concepts and plot elements from the first film. Whether that's good or bad depends on the person.

TDKR just shows Nolan had absolutely no intention or desire to try and recreate TDK, and was more focused on finishing the story in the best way possible. I think it's fairly objective that he did absolutely surpass TDK in terms of the scale of the action and grandiosity of the visuals. As big as TDK felt, TDKR felt a lot bigger...which didn't seem fathomable to most people once upon a time. And yeah, I thought it packed the most emotional punch of the three as well.

But basically, when you make three films that are so different, it's inevitable that people's opinions are going to vary. And it's also no surprise that the second film (which often ends up the best in a trilogy) featured Batman's greatest villain with a once in a generation type of performance, is probably the overall favorite. That's a damn near impossible shadow to climb out from, but I think Nolan did it rather gracefully.

[Destructus86]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Sorry if watching a film that focuses on the man behind the mask isn't your kind of thing. Guess some just prefer superficial CBMs that only shows the superhero and no arc about the guy behind the cape and cowl.

That's the thing. The guy behind the mask shouldn't be the focus because Bruce Wayne IS the mask...Batman is who he is. The main character is Batman. Bruce Wayne is the disguise.

[CoolCadaver49]

Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime_

Letdown is a strong word. SM3 was a letdown. XM3 was a letdown. TDKR was just clearly not as good as it's predecessor. More like Star Wars ROTJ is to ESB and NH, as being just a clearly inferior film with a ton of rehashed ideas, but with a pretty darn good climax (that doesn't make a whole lot of sense in either ROTJ or TDKR).

This is always how I've thought of TDKR as well. Star Wars is a great analogy.

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

I think "clearly" inferior is a bit strong too, especially if you're including BB in the comparisons. I think most people would rank TDKR over BB, and it's certainly better reviewed all around.

I agree, even though I would personally rank Batman Begins higher than The Dark Knight Rises.

[shauner111]

Originally Posted by Destructus86

That's the thing. The guy behind the mask shouldn't be the focus because Bruce Wayne IS the mask...Batman is who he is. The main character is Batman. Bruce Wayne is the disguise.

That's just your interpretation. I dig both. But i dont believe Batman is who Bruce really is. Batman is who he has been since he was 8 years old. He still is Bruce Wayne deep down in his soul, and he needs to accept that one day he has to let go of his mask.

He's still a human being, he's not some creature. He's in denial over many decades and almost believes that he's the Batman and everything else is fake. Somebody like Rachel also believed that. But it's false to me. Because he was born as a Wayne and the trauma of losing his parents is what came to the surface. It's a psychological thing and the real him was pushed back deep beneath the surface.

That's why i actually prefer Nolans take over the comics even.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by Destructus86

That's the thing. The guy behind the mask shouldn't be the focus because Bruce Wayne IS the mask...Batman is who he is. The main character is Batman. Bruce Wayne is the disguise.

But the thing is, it's not like the the movie focused on playboy Bruce. It was focused on the real Bruce, who is still essentially Batman just without the costume. The movie stripped Bruce of everything, but his foremost quality as Batman was still there: his indomitable will. The beauty of it was this time he had to find the will to live. That shot of Bruce standing up at the top of the pit, throwing the rope down and then walking off was the single most "Batman" moment in the film for me. And it all happened without a costume.

[shauner111]

I loved when Rachel told Bruce in Begins, that Bruce was the mask and Batman was who he was. At that point in his life it was true. But deep down his real self is still Bruce Wayne, and "the batman" is just a symptom of his parent's death. As he grows older he needs to face that and get back to what he was before his mom and dad were taken from him, but of course the adult/mature version of that boy.

It's exactly how i see Batman. And i applaud Nolan for doing it. I dont like the depressing take he has in the comics as much, etc where he's just Batman forever and he never finds peace. He's literally a creature. Hey, i like it cuz it's fun but it's not my number 1 preference.

[BlueLightning]

Originally Posted by Destructus86

That's the thing. The guy behind the mask shouldn't be the focus because Bruce Wayne IS the mask...Batman is who he is. The main character is Batman. Bruce Wayne is the disguise.

I strongly disagree with this one. I don't think Bruce Wayne is the mask, and neither Batman is who he is. That's simplifying a lot. I personally think there are three entities within Bruce, or facets of his personality. There is the "Bruce Wayne", the one who parades carefree around Gotham, with the fancy cars and the pretty girls. There is Batman, guardian of the city, who threatens criminals at night, a terrifying figure decided to return the streets of Gotham to the citizens. But deep down, there is Bruce Wayne, this noble man who decided to dedicate his life to aid and protect others, I believe only Alfred knows for sure and who I believe is the true person. This can be seen not only in the Nolan Trilogy, but also on the comics and the animated series.



There is an insightful post on Comics Alliance that deals with this issue and I tend to agree to most of it.

[BatLobsterRises]

And she was also wrong in her letter when she said she was sure the day he doesn't need Batman will never come.

I mean, the movies were definitely playing the with question of "will he/won't he" be able to ever move on with his life from the beginning. Nolan could have kept him locked in the monster forever and made it more tragic, but instead this was more of a redemption tale, which I think was necessary to complete the story at hand. In the end, Bruce's life is still marked by a lot of tragedy, but he's able to overcome it. And again, that comes down to the will of Bruce Wayne and what makes him such an awesome character.

Originally Posted by BlueLightning

There is an insightful post on Comics Alliance that deals with this issue and I tend to agree to most of it.

Very nice article.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by shauner111

I think it's a better movie than TDK personally. More emotional, uplifting, a grander story, and better filmmaking (technically speaking).

Agree. TDKR is the best of the trilogy, imo.

Originally Posted by Destructus86

That's the thing. The guy behind the mask shouldn't be the focus because Bruce Wayne IS the mask...Batman is who he is. The main character is Batman. Bruce Wayne is the disguise.

The mask that we perceive to be Bruce Wayne is the playboy billionaire facade that doesn't give a **** and brings two or three women around as dates. THAT'S the facade and that's the mask Rachel was talking about at the end of BB. The real Bruce Wayne we see with interactions between Alfred and Lucius, heck, even with interaction in TDK between Bruce and Rachel. The real Bruce Wayne was lost in dressing up at night and taking out his rage and trying to be someone he really wasn't during the day and the real Bruce is what Alfred wanted him to be at the end of TDKR. It's not what some perceive Batman to be, but that's only one of many different aspects Nolan had with his Batman.

[Destructus86]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Agree. TDKR is the best of the trilogy, imo.



The mask that we perceive to be Bruce Wayne is the playboy billionaire facade that doesn't give a **** and brings two or three women around as dates. THAT'S the facade and that's the mask Rachel was talking about at the end of BB. The real Bruce Wayne we see with interactions between Alfred and Lucius, heck, even with interaction in TDK between Bruce and Rachel. The real Bruce Wayne was lost in dressing up at night and taking out his rage and trying to be someone he really wasn't during the day and the real Bruce is what Alfred wanted him to be at the end of TDKR. It's not what some perceive Batman to be, but that's only one of many different aspects Nolan had with his Batman.

And that's what Nolan doesn't get...in his films Bruce wears a mask. But in the comics the mask and the person are one in the same. He doesn't JUST wear it to hide his identity...the cowl has a life of it's own practically. The cowl and the man are all one.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Destructus86

And that's what Nolan doesn't get...in his films Bruce wears a mask. But in the comics the mask and the person are one in the same. He doesn't JUST wear it to hide his identity...the cowl has a life of it's own practically. The cowl and the man are all one.

It was that way for Nolan's Batman until TDKR.

[shauner111]

They are one, when he is out there as the Batman, at that point in his life, when that is who he is. But in his soul he is still a human being, obviously he's not some creature. He had nothing to do with Batman until his parents were murdered. It's not like he was born with a disease. He CAN get back to the way he was as a child, it's all about choices and psychological issues and obsessions. I dont care if the comics portray him a different way, in my personal opinion Nolans way felt more right to me. Because in my mind it's impossible for the character to be Batman: the real identity. No, it's a symptom of a tragic incident in his life. And it's an obsession and a choice to be Batman. He CHOOSES to be Batman, and he can stop being batman and be the real Bruce Wayne, a happy person who lives a proper life....if he simply chooses to do so.

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

In the comics, Bruce's body doesn't degrade.

In the movies it does.

It would be stupid and selfish for Bruce, no cartilage in his knees and all, to continue being Batman when there's another man there, with the will, to take his place under the cowl.

[Artistsean]

The over all feeling I have is let down. Not saying it was a bad movie, but maybe because it was an ending it was a let down. I much prefer the 2nd film with the Joker.

What I kept thinking about Bruce and Batman, is that say he did retire. Say he went to France to live a happy life. Got married, what would Bruce do if he saw a woman getting attacked in the streets? Since he was Batman and faced some big threats he could easily help out. Plus its in his nature to help out isn't it? So wouldn't Batman pop up in France? Even if he doesn't do it in costume?

Also I thought a great idea would have been the Batman International concept.

[shauner111]

Well no, he would just help the woman out in the street as any normal good person would do in that moment. Doesnt mean he finds a way to throw on a suit and cowl. The man is done and is finally over it all. He moves on in this interpretation.

But obviously the Batman international concept or even his Batman in a Justice League is a cool thought.

[Bigjxxx]

Originally Posted by Coca Cola Duracell Franklin.

Yes, because I wanted to see a movie about Batman saving Gotham. What I got was a movie about Joseph Gordon Levitt arguing with Commissioner Gordon.

Thank you, I actully fell asleep during that part and the whole Drama between Bruce and Alfred.

Originally Posted by Destructus86

I was expecting a Batman film to have...you know...BATMAN IN IT for more than 20 mins.

Amen

[Bigjxxx]

Originally Posted by BH/HHH

2) I think it was just poorly edited tbh

3) didn't really notice, care to elaborate?

4) again care to elaborate?

I also think Bane liked the challenge that Batman presented. At the end I think he wanted to kill Batman (even though Talia) told him not too cause he wanted to get the last shot in after Batman had just kicked his butt.

3) When Batman met up with Bane during the street battle. Batman's responding to Bane's question...stupid.

4) Nothing about Scarecrow, Nothing heard of the Joker. The entire I am Robin Blake part trash everything.