Petitions Filed in 15 States to Leave the Union

[terry78]

Ironically Florida is not on that list.

[dnno1]

Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123

I wouldn't miss the south and bible belt much.

Maybe the city that includes Disney World but that's it.

The more I think about what America would become without the right wing extremist the more I like the idea of them leaving. But none of that dual citizenship crap. Once you abandon the United States, you're gone for good.

The south have access to the Mississippi delta as well as one of the the nations strategic launch sites (Cape Canaveral). That is not to mention resources such as agriculture, oil, warm weather, and bowl sites.

[Spider-Who?]

Originally Posted by The Overlord

Perhaps, but if these same people who promote these petitions are the same people who said during the Bush administration that anyone who criticizes the President is unpatriotic or that liberals are naturally unpatriotic or some other board statement about patriotism, are these petitions not a huge contradiction? I think people here have a problem with those who hide behind the flag when its convenient and then do 180 when not everything goes their way. Freedom does not mean getting your way all the time and if you are going to talk about how patriotic you are and then try to leave the country when not everything goes your way, why should people take you seriously?

Originally Posted by SV Fan

I understand wanting to leave the union but doing it 2 days after an election just comes across as sour grapes. Honestly do these people think that the country is going be that much worse under the Democrats then the Republicans. If you think there is problems with the system, fine you have a good argument, but it comes off rather ridiculous doing it when it was done

All very good points, and again - I'm just playing devils advocate here - if I were one of these people (assuming they have some amount of intelligence), I would counter by saying that this country has been falling apart for quite a while and that Obama's presidency thus far has been the heavy foot on the gas pedal in the proverbial car racing toward the cliff. Now that he's been re-elected, they feel that now there really is no chance to retake control of the car and that it's time to open the doors and jump out before the country dies in a fiery, Michael Bay explosion.

I don't think there was a huge cry for secession 4 years ago because I think most people believed in Obama's ability to fix the country - only this hasn't happened and the vast majority of his decisions have been very dividing, in often scary ways for those who believe in the Constitution's intent to keep the federal government small (as well as rabid conservatives and partisan hacks). I really don't think this has anything to do with race (for most people involved, anyway), and i think that's a pretty close-minded accusation. I would venture to guess that for most involved, this is a reaction to a fear of seeing this country become something they don't want. And honestly, I don't really blame them. I don't agree with their decision, but I'd be a hypocrite if I said I didn't share similar fears.

[MessiahDecoy123]

Originally Posted by dnno1

The south have access to the Mississippi delta as well as one of the the nations strategic launch sites (Cape Canaveral). That is not to mention resources such as agriculture, oil, warm weather, and bowl sites.

Good luck with all those things.

I can't wait to see the first industrialized nation without any government of
respectable size. I can't wait till all these southerners get pissed at each other when they can't agree on rules and a belief system. I can't wait to see corporations take control with private prisons and private police and clash with renegade militias. I can't wait to see the line of people trying to get back into the USA.

I got my popcorn ready.

[Pink Ranger]

Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123

Good luck with all those things.

I can't wait to see the first industrialized nation without any government of
respectable size. I can't wait till all these southerners get pissed at each other when they can't agree on rules and a belief system. I can't wait to see corporations take control with private prisons and private police and clash with renegade militias. I can't wait to see the line of people trying to get back into the USA.

I got my popcorn ready.

In the long run, a North/South separation might not be a bad thing for both hypothetical countries, economically, provided the South uses its own currency. You'd have the North, who no longer has to pay tax dollars to help out the South. The Southern dollar would likely start off and continue to be less in values than the US dollar, which means the North will have a cheaper labour and commodities market right next door. The South will get more jobs too.

The principle of comparative economic advantage would apply in this case, and could make both economies stronger.

[Spider-Who?]

Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123

Good luck with all those things.

I can't wait to see the first industrialized nation without any government of
respectable size. I can't wait till all these southerners get pissed at each other when they can't agree on rules and a belief system. I can't wait to see corporations take control with private prisons and private police and clash with renegade militias. I can't wait to see the line of people trying to get back into the USA.

I got my popcorn ready.

Ignoring the tired and generalized hate for southern states...you do realize that the states petitioning for secession are all over the US, not just southern states, right?

The list of states that have petitioned so far are:
Montana
Alaska
Delaware
Idaho
Illinois
Indiana
Iowa
New Hampshire
Oregon
New Jersey
New York
Maine
Massachusetts
Rhode Island
Wisconsin
Ohio
Utah
Nebraska
Michigan
Wyoming
Washington
Pennsylvania
Minnesota
North Dakota
South Dakota
Alabama*
Arizona
Arkansas*
California
Colorado
Florida*
Georgia*
Hawaii
Kansas*
Kentucky*
Louisiana*
Mississippi*
Missouri
New Mexico
Nevada
North Carolina*
South Carolina*
Oklahoma*
Tennessee*
Texas*
Virginia*
West Virginia*

* - Southern States as defined by the United States Census Bureau.

In case you don't know your geography, that's only 15 "Southern states" and 21 "Northern states" who have petitioned. The vast majority of the US has petitioned for secession, so actually, if something like this were to happen, it'd be the three states that remain un-seceeded that would be in trouble. Perhaps you should rethink your stance?

[Hotwire]

Can we please stop saying that it is the state petitioning for secession? Unless the state legislature puts forth a referendum, it just a small portion of the state's respective population.

[Dr. Evil]

Originally Posted by Hotwire

Can we please stop saying that it is the state petitioning for secession? Unless the state legislature puts forth a referendum, it just a small portion of the state's respective population.

It's unlikely to happen.

Surprised this thread is five pages long.

[Spider-Who?]

Originally Posted by Hotwire

Can we please stop saying that it is the state petitioning for secession? Unless the state legislature puts forth a referendum, it just a small portion of the state's respective population.

I think people here, myself included, are just saying 'the state" for brevity's sake. "A small percentage of people in x state" is just a mouthful to type over and over, lol.

[Matt Mortem]

Originally Posted by Hotwire

Can we please stop saying that it is the state petitioning for secession? Unless the state legislature puts forth a referendum, it just a small portion of the state's respective population.

I agree. It's just a small number of nutjobs causing ****

[Spider-Who?]

Originally Posted by Dr. Evil

It's unlikely to happen.

Surprised this thread is five pages long.

It's highly unlikely. It's illegal, number one, and as Hotwire mentioned, there are so many long and arduous legal steps each state would have to take to even get the federal government to listen to the request, only for them to say "Nope! Constitution says you can't."

Originally Posted by Matt Mortem

I agree. It's just a small number of nutjobs causing ****

While that may be true to a certain extent, I think that is overall a dismissive mindset on a potentially important dialogue. Honestly, I think this is (if handled thoughtfully and seriously) could be an important step in getting this country back on track. The petitions have gotten large enough to warrant the White House looking into it, and hopefully, as it continues to grow, might be one of many things that gets the dems and repubs to actually stop and say "people are really fed up, we need to work together..." One can dream, right?

[Marvolo]

Originally Posted by Spider-Who?

I think people here, myself included, are just saying 'the state" for brevity's sake. "A small percentage of people in x state" is just a mouthful to type over and over, lol.

Agreed.

[Hotwire]

Here's another thought I don't think anyone has mentioned. Given how week a new country made of states seceded from the US would be, do you think our enemies would see that as a perfect time to attack? Think about it. A country with a decent military would run right over a small group of states that no longer had the support of the US military. And then, we have new neighbors. New, hostile neighbors.

[Spider-Who?]

Originally Posted by Hotwire

Here's another thought I don't think anyone has mentioned. Given how week a new country made of states seceded from the US would be, do you think our enemies would see that as a perfect time to attack? Think about it. A country with a decent military would run right over a small group of states that no longer had the support of the US military. And then, we have new neighbors. New, hostile neighbors.

Interesting thought. However, 47 out of our 50 states have petitioned to secede. That's hardly a small country (assuming those 47 joined together).

But let's say the US is divided into a couple countries. Yes, they'd all be noticeably weaker, but I don't think it would be a post-USSR situation. I think each country would remain extremely close allies for several reasons (defense, economic, social, etc). Our history is defined by the states being united and even if the country were split up, it'd be very hard for the people to step away from that mindset. I really think we'd maintain a huge level of dedication to each other and pull together if one came under attack.

But keeping with your question, that's assuming that the US military even chose to stay with the remaining federal government. Would there be officers and soliders who remained loyal to their state? Would military bases remain where they were by proxy, or would there be a massive exodus? Would we have modern General Lees who choose their family and home over a federal government they felt was doing wrong (Robert E. Lee would have fought for the North had the federal government not broken Constitutional law and marched on his home state of Virginia).

[MessiahDecoy123]

Originally Posted by Spider-Who?

Ignoring the tired and generalized hate for southern states...you do realize that the states petitioning for secession are all over the US, not just southern states, right?

The list of states that have petitioned so far are:
Montana
Alaska
Delaware
Idaho
Illinois
Indiana
Iowa
New Hampshire
Oregon
New Jersey
New York
Maine
Massachusetts
Rhode Island
Wisconsin
Ohio
Utah
Nebraska
Michigan
Wyoming
Washington
Pennsylvania
Minnesota
North Dakota
South Dakota
Alabama*
Arizona
Arkansas*
California
Colorado
Florida*
Georgia*
Hawaii
Kansas*
Kentucky*
Louisiana*
Mississippi*
Missouri
New Mexico
Nevada
North Carolina*
South Carolina*
Oklahoma*
Tennessee*
Texas*
Virginia*
West Virginia*

* - Southern States as defined by the United States Census Bureau.

In case you don't know your geography, that's only 15 "Southern states" and 21 "Northern states" who have petitioned. The vast majority of the US has petitioned for secession, so actually, if something like this were to happen, it'd be the three states that remain un-seceeded that would be in trouble. Perhaps you should rethink your stance?

But how popular have the Northern state petitions been?

The most popular ones have been Texas, Louisiana, and other southern states.

This is important because anyone could start a state petition. Simply starting a petition hardly signifies any statewide intention to secede.

[The Overlord]

Originally Posted by Spider-Who?

All very good points, and again - I'm just playing devils advocate here - if I were one of these people (assuming they have some amount of intelligence), I would counter by saying that this country has been falling apart for quite a while and that Obama's presidency thus far has been the heavy foot on the gas pedal in the proverbial car racing toward the cliff. Now that he's been re-elected, they feel that now there really is no chance to retake control of the car and that it's time to open the doors and jump out before the country dies in a fiery, Michael Bay explosion.

I don't think there was a huge cry for secession 4 years ago because I think most people believed in Obama's ability to fix the country - only this hasn't happened and the vast majority of his decisions have been very dividing, in often scary ways for those who believe in the Constitution's intent to keep the federal government small (as well as rabid conservatives and partisan hacks). I really don't think this has anything to do with race (for most people involved, anyway), and i think that's a pretty close-minded accusation. I would venture to guess that for most involved, this is a reaction to a fear of seeing this country become something they don't want. And honestly, I don't really blame them. I don't agree with their decision, but I'd be a hypocrite if I said I didn't share similar fears.

But did these same people complain when the Bush administration introduced the Patriot Act? Where were their complaints then? If America has been "falling apart for a while" why are they talking about this now and did nothing during the Bush administration? This just makes these cession petitions come off as extremely partisan, rather then based on legitimate concerns. That's why not a lot of people here have any sympathy for them.

[The Incredible Hulk]

Let the Southern states go. Outside of Texas, they're all suckling on the Federal teet anyway.

[MessiahDecoy123]

It will be funny to see all these Libertarians rush to move to seceded states hoping for more freedom only to find themselves under a strict conservative belief system.

[Hotwire]

I wonder how many of them had the Sore/Loserman bumper stickers when Gore was calling for a recount of Florida, and fail to see the irony in their current actions.

[Anita18]

Originally Posted by Hotwire

Can we please stop saying that it is the state petitioning for secession? Unless the state legislature puts forth a referendum, it just a small portion of the state's respective population.

Seriously. This means NOTHING.

I also can't believe this thread is 5 pages and the Petraeus thread has only one reply - mine. I mean come ON people! Sex scandal! Important generals being high schoolers! Military groupies!

[redhawk23]

Has anyone noticed that you don't even have to actually live in the state to sign that state's petition. How much cross over is there in between these signatures.

Also while people may be saying "the state" is petitioning to secede for brevity's sake, its still disingenuous.


The petition to "Deport everyone who signing petions to secede" has over 7,000 votes, more than most of the state petitions.

[redhawk23]

Originally Posted by Spider-Who?

It's highly unlikely. It's illegal, number one, and as Hotwire mentioned, there are so many long and arduous legal steps each state would have to take to even get the federal government to listen to the request, only for them to say "Nope! Constitution says you can't."



While that may be true to a certain extent, I think that is overall a dismissive mindset on a potentially important dialogue. Honestly, I think this is (if handled thoughtfully and seriously) could be an important step in getting this country back on track. The petitions have gotten large enough to warrant the White House looking into it, and hopefully, as it continues to grow, might be one of many things that gets the dems and repubs to actually stop and say "people are really fed up, we need to work together..." One can dream, right?

Yeah people are so fed up they re-elected the vast majority of incumbents in the Federal government.

[Spider-Who?]

Originally Posted by redhawk23

Yeah people are so fed up they re-elected the vast majority of incumbents in the Federal government.

That's the electoral college for you.

[redhawk23]

^ There wasn't that much turn over in congress either not to mention that Obama won the popular vote also.

[dnno1]

Jon Stewart's response:

http://www.hulu.com/watch/424909