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Old 11-19-2012, 05:06 PM   #126
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The fact that the ambiguity about Ra's was removed. I liked how I saw Ra's in Begins, Rises changed everything and did exactly what I feared it would, it told me I was viewing it wrong for 7 years - and I hate that. I haven't watch Begins since Rises and quite frankly I'm not all that keen too.
What ambiguity?

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Old 11-19-2012, 05:14 PM   #127
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I loved TDKR, but it wasn't what I had in mind seeing the end of TDK. I thought it was great that Batman took the blame for Harvey's acts at the end of TDK. I just don't think that the story we got in TDKR felt like the natural progression of the story.

- No Dent Act.
- Takes place within a year of TDK's ending. (Eighteen months of clean streets)
- Batman is still active, but is being hunted down by a special task force (Blake a member).
- Bruce Wayne is no more. Batman is all BW has left.
- The city fears Batman (terrorized) by him. (Killings)
- Bane publicly breaks Batman (seen as liberator). Bruce will still be taken to prison and Bane's true intentions will be revealed.
- No Foley.
- A more brutal Batman
I agree with practically all of these

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I wouldn't have rushed in Talia's role. But that's just me.
No, it's not just you. Talia was a misfire in the story, IMO. Tate was a dull under developed character, and Talia was just the "twist" at the end, and existed all too briefly to even care about her.

Btw, great posts, The Guard

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Old 11-19-2012, 05:38 PM   #128
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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What ambiguity?
About who Ra's is and what his backstory is. The interpretation I got from Begins was that the reason Ra's joined the LoS was for the same reasons as Bruce, because he was a lost soul. Others filled in the blanks from the comics which is fine, but the information given to us in Begins is minimal and thus open to opinion as to his backstory which is perfectly fine. My issue is that Rises effectively cancelled out the ambiguity for Ra's backstory meaning people like me are left feeling like they've been told they've been watching the film wrong for 7 years.

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Old 11-19-2012, 05:56 PM   #129
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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About who Ra's is and what his backstory is. The interpretation I got from Begins was that the reason Ra's joined the LoS was for the same reasons as Bruce, because he was a lost soul. Others filled in the blanks from the comics which is fine, but the information given to us in Begins is minimal and thus open to opinion as to his backstory which is perfectly fine. My issue is that Rises effectively cancelled out the ambiguity for Ra's backstory meaning people like me are left feeling like they've been told they've been watching the film wrong for 7 years.
But wasn't Ra's still a lost soul when his wife traded her own life for his? Granted, Ra's never truly found out that his wife traded her life for his escape from The Pit(at least until Talia maybe telling him), but he still was never able to see her again. I still felt that 'lost soul' aspect was still there even after Ra's' backstory in TDKR.

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Old 11-19-2012, 07:00 PM   #130
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

I would change a LOT about the movie. But the one that sticks out the most to me, is probably going to be the ending. My god, did I hate the ending. I can only assume that Batman borrowed the refrigerator from Indiana Jones, and stuck it in The Bat, so he could survive the nuke.

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Old 11-19-2012, 07:14 PM   #131
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Or he has a fridge of his own already in The Bat.

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Old 11-19-2012, 08:15 PM   #132
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Guard's posts are epic.

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I wouldn't have rushed in Talia's role. But that's just me.
Nope I'd boot her out of the flick altogether. She was a waste.

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Originally Posted by jmc View Post
About who Ra's is and what his backstory is. The interpretation I got from Begins was that the reason Ra's joined the LoS was for the same reasons as Bruce, because he was a lost soul. Others filled in the blanks from the comics which is fine, but the information given to us in Begins is minimal and thus open to opinion as to his backstory which is perfectly fine. My issue is that Rises effectively cancelled out the ambiguity for Ra's backstory meaning people like me are left feeling like they've been told they've been watching the film wrong for 7 years.
Quoted for truth.

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I would change a LOT about the movie. But the one that sticks out the most to me, is probably going to be the ending. My god, did I hate the ending. I can only assume that Batman borrowed the refrigerator from Indiana Jones, and stuck it in The Bat, so he could survive the nuke.
Heh that was lame. Ya hear people say the editing played some kinda trick there but Bats would have been toast in that blast.


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Old 11-20-2012, 12:15 AM   #133
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

The thing that I don't like about the ending is that to me that is not Batman. The thing that I have always been drawn to with Batman is that he is a tragic hero, meaning someone who is destined to be alone, and the fact that BW gets to "live happily ever after" doesn't sit well with me.

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Old 11-20-2012, 12:18 AM   #134
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The thing that I don't like about the ending is that to me that is not Batman. The thing that I have always been drawn to with Batman is that he is a tragic hero, meaning someone who is destined to be alone, and the fact that BW gets to "live happily ever after" doesn't sit well with me.
That too.....

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Old 11-20-2012, 01:05 AM   #135
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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But wasn't Ra's still a lost soul when his wife traded her own life for his? Granted, Ra's never truly found out that his wife traded her life for his escape from The Pit(at least until Talia maybe telling him), but he still was never able to see her again. I still felt that 'lost soul' aspect was still there even after Ra's' backstory in TDKR.
Yeah, I don't see how Rises did anything to change the basic ideas presented in Begins regarding Ra's backstory, it merely provided more specificity. Begins establishes that he lost his great love, Rises just shows the full story behind it.

I found the shot in Rises of young Ra's being dropped off in the middle of nowhere and then walking out into the distance to be a direct mirror of the shot of Bruce walking towards the mountains in Begins right before he picks the blue flower. Both shots start with the scenic view, with Bruce/Ra's walking into frame, both carrying a bag on their backs. Two young lost souls, looking for a path. And both end up being drawn into the League of Shadows.

Also interesting to note, Bruce is walking to the left of frame while Ra's walks to the right. Considering that this very shot of Bruce from Begins was featured in the teaser for TDKR, I highly doubt this was just a coincidence. (Also cool to note, this shot was also featured in the Batman Begins teaser)

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Old 11-20-2012, 08:23 AM   #136
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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The thing that I don't like about the ending is that to me that is not Batman. The thing that I have always been drawn to with Batman is that he is a tragic hero, meaning someone who is destined to be alone, and the fact that BW gets to "live happily ever after" doesn't sit well with me.
Yeah, I'm not sure I like that either. Sometimes I think I would have rather seen him go down fighting and redeem Gotham that way.

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Old 11-20-2012, 08:31 AM   #137
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

The thought of Alfred crying like that at Bruce's grave and him actually being dead is almost too heavy for me. Alfred doesn't deserve that weight.

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Old 11-20-2012, 08:59 AM   #138
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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The thought of Alfred crying like that at Bruce's grave and him actually being dead is almost too heavy for me. Alfred doesn't deserve that weight.
I agree. I hated that emotional fake out. It's just not fair to the audience.
I hated it when Gordon faked his death in TDK, but that was a minor plot point in the middle of the film and used to keep things moving and tensions high.
In TDKR, it was much worse as it was the culmination of basically what the entire trilogy had been building up to at that point.

Now, don't get me wrong, on it's own, Alfred crying at the graves and saying "I've failed you," to Thomas and Martha is one of the most beautiful scenes I've ever seen in any movie ever. Caine is absolutely heartbreaking. But on repeating viewings/when you find out that really he's been crying over nothing, it makes the whole moment feel very cheap.

Imagine how it would taint that moment in Godfather II when Michale's head drops as he hears the gunshot that kills his brother and he realizes he's finally lost his entire family, if five minutes later we find out that Fredo isn't actually dead.

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Old 11-20-2012, 09:15 AM   #139
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I agree. I hated that emotional fake out. It's just not fair to the audience.
I hated it when Gordon faked his death in TDK, but that was a minor plot point in the middle of the film and used to keep things moving and tensions high.
In TDKR, it was much worse as it was the culmination of basically what the entire trilogy had been building up to at that point.

Now, don't get me wrong, on it's own, Alfred crying at the graves and saying "I've failed you," to Thomas and Martha is one of the most beautiful scenes I've ever seen in any movie ever. Caine is absolutely heartbreaking. But on repeating viewings/when you find out that really he's been crying over nothing, it makes the whole moment feel very cheap.

Imagine how it would taint that moment in Godfather II when Michale's head drops as he hears the gunshot that kills his brother and he realizes he's finally lost his entire family, if five minutes later we find out that Fredo isn't actually dead.
The whole faking of the death thing was stupid to begin with. What was the purpose of it other than to trick/wow the audience? I understand why Bruce left Gotham, Alfred explained that the city would always hold pain for him. I even understand why Batman needed to die (even though Blake is getting the equipment anyway), can anyone give me a logical reason why Bruce would fake his death?

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Old 11-20-2012, 09:24 AM   #140
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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I agree. I hated that emotional fake out. It's just not fair to the audience.
I hated it when Gordon faked his death in TDK, but that was a minor plot point in the middle of the film and used to keep things moving and tensions high.
In TDKR, it was much worse as it was the culmination of basically what the entire trilogy had been building up to at that point.

Now, don't get me wrong, on it's own, Alfred crying at the graves and saying "I've failed you," to Thomas and Martha is one of the most beautiful scenes I've ever seen in any movie ever. Caine is absolutely heartbreaking. But on repeating viewings/when you find out that really he's been crying over nothing, it makes the whole moment feel very cheap.

Imagine how it would taint that moment in Godfather II when Michale's head drops as he hears the gunshot that kills his brother and he realizes he's finally lost his entire family, if five minutes later we find out that Fredo isn't actually dead.
I can understand that viewpoint, but it still doesn't feel cheap to me. It still plays just as emotionally to me on repeat viewings, mostly because Caine's performance just kills it. To me, this is what makes the ultra-happy ending for Bruce work. As some have pointed out, Batman is an inherently dark character full of tragedy, and he's usually willing to do anything it takes to get the job done. The big question surrounding this movie was whether Batman would survive, and I'm glad we got to emotionally "sample" what that would actually feel like both as audience members and for the supporting characters, before receiving the cathartic release of his survival. The whole film was centered on Bruce choosing life over death, so I think it was totally fair game to explore the tragic ending that Bruce has ultimately risen above, before learning the truth. When I first saw the film, I was surprisingly "okay" with the idea of Batman dying...until Caine came on screen. That's when I realized Bruce pretty much had to be alive because the beat was just way too emotionally heavy to actually be the final resolution for Alfred's character after a 3-film arc. But it's a testament to Caine's acting that it still plays just as emotionally to me. Got me a bit misty-eyed on my 5th and final IMAX viewing.

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Old 11-20-2012, 09:44 AM   #141
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I don't know, I am perfectly fine with Bruce Wayne "living happily ever after". Much as what Kevin Smith said on one of his podcasts, this guy has gone through so much ****, it's nice to actually see Wayne get a happy ending through this journey since this will be basically be the only time we'll see him have a happy ending. Nolan took many liberties, and one of them was finally giving Bruce pure freedom.

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Old 11-20-2012, 11:40 AM   #142
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The whole faking of the death thing was stupid to begin with. What was the purpose of it other than to trick/wow the audience? I understand why Bruce left Gotham, Alfred explained that the city would always hold pain for him. I even understand why Batman needed to die (even though Blake is getting the equipment anyway), can anyone give me a logical reason why Bruce would fake his death?
Nope, and neither did Christopher Nolan.

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Old 11-20-2012, 11:50 AM   #143
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Nope, and neither did Christopher Nolan.
Lol. I can't imagine what a bat flick written by you would look like. Although I wish you'd write it because you have implied on more than one occasion Nolan really had no clue wtf he's doing.

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Old 11-20-2012, 12:12 PM   #144
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I would actually love to see every fanboy/girl get a chance to write and/or direct a CBM just to see how the product would be like.

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Old 11-20-2012, 12:18 PM   #145
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True. But the guard tries to present himself as some type of authority on the subject of good/bad writing and actually speaks as if Nolan is a hack at times. I'm actually genuinely curious at his credentials that allows him to be so critical of such a renowned director. I consider myself a good writer and I don't see anything in tdkr I'd consider hack writing. So perhaps I'm not seeing the forest for the trees and need an expert such as the guard to explain or show what good writing really is.. It goes beyond merely having gripes w the films; he flat out states Nolan and co wrote terribly bad and have no clue themselves what they were trying to get across w the story. So I am genuinely intrigued, perhaps he is an idiot savant who could lead us to the greatest bayman adaptation ever. I'd love to see him give it a shot.


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Old 11-20-2012, 12:29 PM   #146
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Nope, and neither did Christopher Nolan.
Yes, the reason is that like Gotham he is starting anew in the way that Alfred had hoped he would learn to do. It's a great way to thematically tie everything up. I don't see how people are missing this. Not liking it is one thing, but to deny its existence and its intellectual strength is poor viewing comprehension.

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Old 11-20-2012, 12:49 PM   #147
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Yes, the reason is that like Gotham he is starting anew in the way that Alfred had hoped he would learn to do. It's a great way to thematically tie everything up. I don't see how people are missing this. Not liking it is one thing, but to deny its existence and its intellectual strength is poor viewing comprehension.
Why fake his death though? How many people do you know that fake their deaths everytime they move to another country?

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Old 11-20-2012, 12:54 PM   #148
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Yes, the reason is that like Gotham he is starting anew in the way that Alfred had hoped he would learn to do. It's a great way to thematically tie everything up. I don't see how people are missing this. Not liking it is one thing, but to deny its existence and its intellectual strength is poor viewing comprehension.
That can't possibly be it. After all he's only one of the worlds most renowned directors. No chance he could explain his own ending and no chance I hated it so therefore refuse to acknowledge Its relevance.


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Old 11-20-2012, 12:56 PM   #149
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Why fake his death though? How many people do you know that fake their deaths everytime they move to another country?
People who a) realize someone will eventually figure out that they were Batman and so don't want their enemies after them, b) don't want to be arrested for being a vigilante, c) want to help their new gf get a fresh start with a "clean slate" without drawing attention to her via associating her with a living celebrity playboy.... lots of reasons.

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Old 11-20-2012, 01:20 PM   #150
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I don't know, I am perfectly fine with Bruce Wayne "living happily ever after". Much as what Kevin Smith said on one of his podcasts, this guy has gone through so much ****, it's nice to actually see Wayne get a happy ending through this journey since this will be basically be the only time we'll see him have a happy ending. Nolan took many liberties, and one of them was finally giving Bruce pure freedom.
Have you heard episode 12 with Ralph Garman? Smith still likes the movie, but he's now admitting there are some funky things with it, and the retirement was brought up a few times. Really funny episode. Their Michael Caine impressions are hysterical.

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