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Old 11-20-2012, 02:21 PM   #151
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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Why fake his death though? How many people do you know that fake their deaths everytime they move to another country?
Ya, but how many people are Batman?

Look it's a story, the ending has great thematic and symbolic meaning, and the end is completely plausible. Once again, it's perfectly reasonable to say you didn't like it, or that it didn't work for you, but it's another thing to act like there was no reason for the choice or that it is an objectively bad ending.

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Old 11-20-2012, 04:53 PM   #152
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People who a) realize someone will eventually figure out that they were Batman and so don't want their enemies after them, b) don't want to be arrested for being a vigilante, c) want to help their new gf get a fresh start with a "clean slate" without drawing attention to her via associating her with a living celebrity playboy.... lots of reasons.
A. So Bruce is worried someone will figure out he is Batman.....Yet remains in Gotham for 8 years after he is retired

B. Bruce is worried about getting arrested for being a vigilante.....Yet stays in Gotham for 8 years after he is retired

C) So people in Florence, Italy are not going to give the new couple attention, yet Ra's Al Ghul had no problem finding Bruce in a broke down prison in East Asia. And if the clean slate does work, how would Selena associating with Bruce make a difference in anyway?

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Old 11-20-2012, 04:54 PM   #153
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Ya, but how many people are Batman?

Look it's a story, the ending has great thematic and symbolic meaning, and the end is completely plausible. Once again, it's perfectly reasonable to say you didn't like it, or that it didn't work for you, but it's another thing to act like there was no reason for the choice or that it is an objectively bad ending.
The bolded is showing how hard you guys have to try to defend the movie. Oh, its fine that it doesn't make sense, its Batman. Maybe the reason so many people dislike certain aspects of the movie is because they don't make sense to begin with

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Old 11-20-2012, 05:05 PM   #154
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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A. So Bruce is worried someone will figure out he is Batman.....Yet remains in Gotham for 8 years after he is retired
Not an exact parallel. But I'll add as well that Bruce was far removed from the public eye, i.e. in hiding. Not to mention depressed - I'm not sure he cared all that much at that point about his life being ruined in the event of someone discovering his alter ego, given that he already felt his life was pretty ruined by Rachel's death.

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C) So people in Florence, Italy are not going to give the new couple attention
What does this even mean? Do you think I was insinuating that Bruce and Selena were invisible? I don't mean no attention whatsoever. I mean unwanted attention, the discovery of their identities, their pasts catching up with them, etc.

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Yet Ra's Al Ghul had no problem finding Bruce in a broke down prison in East Asia. And if the clean slate does work, how would Selena associating with Bruce make a difference in anyway?
a) The clean slate doesn't erase people's memories. It isn't a magic spell. To start over Selena has to start over totally - new identity, etc. b) Yes, there's always a risk that they could be rediscovered. Its a logical leap to assert that I was saying Bruce's "death" utterly removed all risk from their attempts to start a new life. Pragmatic people take precautions to minimize risk. Its easy to knock down a straw man by saying "well Ra's could still find Bruce, so you can never remove all chances of them being found!" Are you saying that because someone like Ra's could rediscover them that they shouldn't even try? That they should just say "the heck with it" and keep their old identities and not fake their deaths? Maybe I'm misreading your argument (I hope so) but it sounds a lot like "People in car crashes have died despite taking the precaution of wearing a seatbelt, so why wear seatbelts?"

Its in Batman's character to prepare ahead for every eventuality. The idea that he'd be so paranoid as to fake his death is not all that far fetched in the mythos.

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Old 11-20-2012, 05:10 PM   #155
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Not an exact parallel. But I'll add as well that Bruce was far removed from the public eye, i.e. in hiding. Not to mention depressed - I'm not sure he cared all that much at that point about his life being ruined in the event of someone discovering his alter ego, given that he already felt his life was pretty ruined by Rachel's death.



What does this even mean? Do you think I was insinuating that Bruce and Selena were invisible? I don't mean no attention whatsoever. I mean unwanted attention, the discovery of their identities, their pasts catching up with them, etc.



a) The clean slate doesn't erase people's memories. It isn't a magic spell. To start over Selena has to start over totally - new identity, etc. b) Yes, there's always a risk that they could be rediscovered. Its a logical leap to assert that I was saying Bruce's "death" utterly removed all risk from their attempts to start a new life. Pragmatic people take precautions to minimize risk. Its easy to knock down a straw man by saying "well Ra's could still find Bruce, so you can never remove all chances of them being found!" Are you saying that because someone like Ra's could rediscover them that they shouldn't even try? That they should just say "the heck with it" and keep their old identities and not fake their deaths? Maybe I'm misreading your argument (I hope so) but it sounds a lot like "People in car crashes have died despite taking the precaution of wearing a seatbelt, so why wear seatbelts?"

Its in Batman's character to prepare ahead for every eventuality. The idea that he'd be so paranoid as to fake his death is not all that far fetched in the mythos.
But you haven't justified a logical reason for Bruce to fake his death. He left Gotham for 7 years before without faking his death, what events in the movie would give someone a logical reason as to why he would do it this time?

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Old 11-20-2012, 05:14 PM   #156
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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But you haven't justified a logical reason for Bruce to fake his death. He left Gotham for 7 years before without faking his death, what events in the movie would give someone a logical reason as to why he would do it this time?
Yes I have.

As for his disappearance in Begins, Bruce wasn't trained or matured at that point. His departure was impulsive, not prepared (a la the repair of the Bat's autopilot). He knew they'd "come looking for him," as he told the nice coat guy, but he didn't seem to care - and upon his return he was actually surprised to find that he'd been declared dead.

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Old 11-20-2012, 05:32 PM   #157
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The bolded is showing how hard you guys have to try to defend the movie. Oh, its fine that it doesn't make sense, its Batman. Maybe the reason so many people dislike certain aspects of the movie is because they don't make sense to begin with
No, it does make sense in the context of the story, my only point was that just because people don't normally do it doesn't mean Batman wouldn't do it. It's simply a useless argument to suggest that it might not be something he would do. Obviously Nolan's would do it... because he DOES do it. It's an idea they present earlier in the film regarding Selina Kyle's desire to disappear as well - they both want fresh starts. It also is a very strong ending thematically and a great parallel between his journey and that of Gotham City. There is no sound argument that the ending doesn't objectively make sense, but there is a strong argument for why some people don't like it, which is fair enough. There is a difference though, so please stop trying to paint it as if it is an inherent writing flaw when it's just personal preference and you not liking the decision.

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Old 11-20-2012, 05:37 PM   #158
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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Its in Batman's character to prepare ahead for every eventuality. The idea that he'd be so paranoid as to fake his death is not all that far fetched in the mythos.
Good point, and on the heels of that they discuss the idea of Batman needing a mask to protect those he loves, and the idea that he is planning to utterly distance himself from it so his future life can go on without a disturbance from the past makes complete sense from Bruce's perspective. Bruce is trying to let go of all that made him truly need Batman, including his identity as Bruce Wayne, the man driven to obsession by a tragedy during his youth. He's trying to let it all go. It makes complete sense and is hardly a stretch in believability.

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Old 11-20-2012, 05:40 PM   #159
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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Yeah, I don't see how Rises did anything to change the basic ideas presented in Begins regarding Ra's backstory, it merely provided more specificity. Begins establishes that he lost his great love, Rises just shows the full story behind it.

I found the shot in Rises of young Ra's being dropped off in the middle of nowhere and then walking out into the distance to be a direct mirror of the shot of Bruce walking towards the mountains in Begins right before he picks the blue flower. Both shots start with the scenic view, with Bruce/Ra's walking into frame, both carrying a bag on their backs. Two young lost souls, looking for a path. And both end up being drawn into the League of Shadows.

Also interesting to note, Bruce is walking to the left of frame while Ra's walks to the right. Considering that this very shot of Bruce from Begins was featured in the teaser for TDKR, I highly doubt this was just a coincidence. (Also cool to note, this shot was also featured in the Batman Begins teaser)
I didn't need clarification or specifics, the Ra's presented to us in Begins is a person who's past is unknown and that's how it should have stayed. What I interpreted from Begins was that Ra's joined the LoS for the same reasons as Bruce, because he had nothing to live for. And my interpretation of that meant if he had a daughter he wouldn't have joined the league because unlike Bruce he would have had something left to hang onto in the world. In my mind anyway based on the information provided Ra's and Bruce are mirrors of each other. That interpretation was taken away from people like me and the ambiguity removed entirely. I don't like being told the way I've watched a film for 7 years is wrong, in fact it pisses me off.

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Old 11-20-2012, 06:01 PM   #160
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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I didn't need clarification or specifics, the Ra's presented to us in Begins is a person who's past is unknown and that's how it should have stayed. What I interpreted from Begins was that Ra's joined the LoS for the same reasons as Bruce, because he had nothing to live for. And my interpretation of that meant if he had a daughter he wouldn't have joined the league because unlike Bruce he would have had something left to hang onto in the world. In my mind anyway based on the information provided Ra's and Bruce are mirrors of each other. That interpretation was taken away from people like me and the ambiguity removed entirely. I don't like being told the way I've watched a film for 7 years is wrong, in fact it pisses me off.
Ra's didn't know about his daughter or the fate of his love until Talia escaped the prison and found him, though. So he still was a lost soul as you had originally envisioned. Nolan still clearly views and depicts him as a parallel to Bruce in that light.

Even so, it's not your story, it's Nolans and he can provide us with whatever background he wants. I can see why that would affect how you view the movie in a negative light, but it's a really selfish critique.

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Old 11-20-2012, 06:13 PM   #161
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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Ra's didn't know about his daughter or the fate of his love until Talia escaped the prison and found him, though. So he still was a lost soul as you had originally envisioned. Nolan still clearly views and depicts him as a parallel to Bruce in that light.

Even so, it's not your story, it's Nolans and he can provide us with whatever background he wants. I can see why that would affect how you view the movie in a negative light, but it's a really selfish critique.
So what would you have me do then? Force myself to 'like' Ra's back story? Ignore that it means Begins no longer is the same movie? I can accept that Nolan wanted to tell that story, I just don't have to like it. If he's happy with it then more power to him, me I don't like it coz it screws up the movie I loved.

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Old 11-20-2012, 06:18 PM   #162
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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So what would you have me do then? Force myself to 'like' Ra's back story? Ignore that it means Begins no longer is the same movie? I can accept that Nolan wanted to tell that story, I just don't have to like it. If he's happy with it then more power to him, me I don't like it coz it screws up the movie I loved.
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:23 PM   #163
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So what would you have me do then? Force myself to 'like' Ra's back story? Ignore that it means Begins no longer is the same movie? I can accept that Nolan wanted to tell that story, I just don't have to like it. If he's happy with it then more power to him, me I don't like it coz it screws up the movie I loved.
But like I just explained, Ra's had no idea he even had a daughter when he sought out the LOS, so your original idea is not at all affected by Nolan's decision. In fact he's actually telling that same story, so I'm surprised you don't like it. It's no longer ambiguous, it's fact that you were right in the way that Ra's experienced that moment. I don't know why that's not a positive for you.

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Old 11-20-2012, 06:34 PM   #164
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But like I just explained, Ra's had no idea he even had a daughter when he sought out the LOS, so your original idea is not at all affected by Nolan's decision. In fact he's actually telling that same story, so I'm surprised you don't like it. It's no longer ambiguous, it's fact that you were right in the way that Ra's experienced that moment. I don't know why that's not a positive for you.
I suggest your read what I wrote above again.

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Old 11-20-2012, 06:49 PM   #165
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

Actually I should clarify a bit coz I can see how it could get misinterpreted. My take on it was that a great tragedy is what drove him to the LoS similar to Bruce, that when his wife was taken from him that meant something awful happened to her that lead him to the path of the LoS. As I said I saw Bruce and Ra's a mirror images of one and other, but the 'tragedies' Rises tells are disproportionate. In the end it was all an excuse just to squeeze Talia into the story for what ended up being for no reason.

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Old 11-20-2012, 06:50 PM   #166
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I suggest your read what I wrote above again.
You're going to have to be more specific, because I have read and re-read what you wrote:
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What I interpreted from Begins was that Ra's joined the LoS for the same reasons as Bruce, because he had nothing to live for. And my interpretation of that meant if he had a daughter he wouldn't have joined the league because unlike Bruce he would have had something left to hang onto in the world. In my mind anyway based on the information provided Ra's and Bruce are mirrors of each other. That interpretation was taken away from people like me and the ambiguity removed entirely. I don't like being told the way I've watched a film for 7 years is wrong, in fact it pisses me off.
This interpretation still stands given the story told in TDKR. Ra's thought he was all alone, not knowing his love and daughter were alive, rotting in a cell. He was a mirror to Bruce. I'm not sure what you think is different between the way Ra's felt at the time when he chose to seek out the LOS and your interpretation.

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Old 11-20-2012, 07:02 PM   #167
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Lol. I can't imagine what a bat flick written by you would look like. Although I wish you'd write it because you have implied on more than one occasion Nolan really had no clue wtf he's doing.
Then you must not pay attention to my posts…because I tend to talk about exactly what I think should or shouldn’t be done with Batman in film.

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True. But the guard tries to present himself as some type of authority on the subject of good/bad writing and actually speaks as if Nolan is a hack at times.
No I don’t. I’ve never said anything about being any type of authority on the subject of good/bad writing. And I’ve never called Chris Nolan a hack.

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I'm actually genuinely curious at his credentials that allows him to be so critical of such a renowned director.
He’s a renowned director who happens to be a writer. Not a renowned writer.

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I consider myself a good writer and I don't see anything in tdkr I'd consider hack writing.
I don't either. Once again, I’ve never called Nolan a hack.

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So perhaps I'm not seeing the forest for the trees and need an expert such as the guard to explain or show what good writing really is.. It goes beyond merely having gripes w the films; he flat out states Nolan and co wrote terribly bad and have no clue themselves what they were trying to get across w the story.
Um…no. I’ve never said either of those things. I’ve said the execution of certain elements was less than impressive, and that certain parts of the film contain awful writing. I’ve never stated that the entire film is terribly written. There are plenty of parts of the film that work, and plenty of good writing in the film, and the franchise as a whole.

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Yes, the reason is that like Gotham he is starting anew in the way that Alfred had hoped he would learn to do. It's a great way to thematically tie everything up. I don't see how people are missing this. Not liking it is one thing, but to deny its existence and its intellectual strength is poor viewing comprehension.
Alfred never told him to fake his own death and abandon the identity of Bruce Wayne or even suggested such a thing.

There’s no logical reason to do it given in the film.

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People who a) realize someone will eventually figure out that they were Batman and so don't want their enemies after them, b) don't want to be arrested for being a vigilante, c) want to help their new gf get a fresh start with a "clean slate" without drawing attention to her via associating her with a living celebrity playboy.... lots of reasons
None of these concerns are really present in the film. It’s a fairly drastic move to make when it’s never been an issue for the characters in the movie. The film doesn’t bother to set it up at all.

I like the ending. I think the execution if it is a bit lazy, and not good writing.

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Yes I have.
I think what they mean by that is that you have. But the film didn't.

That’s the issue.

The issue is that there couldn’t possibly be a reason someone fakes their death in Bruce Wayne's situation. The issue is the film never sets it up or deals with it at all.

Suddenly Bruce just decides to fake his death because he’s faking Batman’s death.

In the comics, Batman fakes his death for specific reasons. Reasons that the plot sets up. He has a very specific reason for doing it in THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, and any other story where he does it.

Not so in THE DARK KNIGHT RISES.

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No, it does make sense in the context of the story, my only point was that just because people don't normally do it doesn't mean Batman wouldn't do it. It's simply a useless argument to suggest that it might not be something he would do. Obviously Nolan's would do it... because he DOES do it. It's an idea they present earlier in the film regarding Selina Kyle's desire to disappear as well - they both want fresh starts.
The idea of Bruce Wayne wanting a fresh start himself isn't really present in the film that much at all. Certainly not enough to suggest that he wants to abandon his identity and fake his own death.

And guess what? A fresh start doesn’t have to mean “Abandoning your identity”. Bruce never once indicates he doesn’t wish to be Bruce Wayne anymore in the film. There’s no logical reason for him not to want to be anymore given in the film.

Whether you can make leaps in logic on your own that suggest why he might have wanted to do it…the film does not do this itself.

In the end, what happens is done for apparently strictly melodramatic purposes, because it’s not set up, doesn't follow the film's own internal logic, and more or less comes out of nowhere.

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It also is a very strong ending thematically and a great parallel between his journey and that of Gotham City.
I don't see how abandoning his identity creates a great paralell between his journey and that of Gotham City...

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There is no sound argument that the ending doesn't objectively make sense, but there is a strong argument for why some people don't like it, which is fair enough. There is a difference though, so please stop trying to paint it as if it is an inherent writing flaw when it's just personal preference and you not liking the decision.
There are plenty of reasons why it's not executed well.

It’s not just personal preference, it's an inherent writing flaw. No self-respecting writer, wanting to present something as well-written, would randomly have a character fake his death if no good reason to do so had not been set up in the script.

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Old 11-20-2012, 07:11 PM   #168
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But you haven't justified a logical reason for Bruce to fake his death. He left Gotham for 7 years before without faking his death, what events in the movie would give someone a logical reason as to why he would do it this time?
Presumably, there were people who looked for him as that's what he told that homeless man while taking his jacket, saying people will look for him. It's logical to assume Wayne faked his death solely so no one would look for him.

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Old 11-20-2012, 07:24 PM   #169
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Presumably, there were people who looked for him as that's what he told that homeless man while taking his jacket, saying people will look for him. It's logical to assume Wayne faked his death solely so no one would look for him.
Absolutely. I'm not sure how else the "death" could have be presented, to be honest. How were they supposed to make explicit every reason for the fake death without spoiling the fact that said death was coming? They foreshadowed it enough. Bruce lost everything but Wayne Manor, Alfred wanted him to move away and "get away from all this," something he can't do if he still has his celebrity playboy name attached to him, etc. They foreshadowed it in that Bruce doesn't care for media attention (his use of the electromagnetic pulse to disable the cameras). They foreshadowed it in his discussions with Selena about getting a new clean start. They foreshadowed it in Bruce's continual paranoia throughout the series (even Talia commented on his paranoia), which would lead him to take every step possible to start afresh with a new identity. They didn't need to beat the audience on the head with a reason, in my opinion.

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Old 11-20-2012, 07:39 PM   #170
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The thing that I don't like about the ending is that to me that is not Batman. The thing that I have always been drawn to with Batman is that he is a tragic hero, meaning someone who is destined to be alone, and the fact that BW gets to "live happily ever after" doesn't sit well with me.
I can understand that. Even in elseworld tales in the comics I can't think of any where Bruce got a happy ever after. Even when he retires in Batman Beyond he's a miserable lonely wretch living in isolation out in Wayne Manor.

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I agree. I hated that emotional fake out. It's just not fair to the audience.
I hated it when Gordon faked his death in TDK, but that was a minor plot point in the middle of the film and used to keep things moving and tensions high.
In TDKR, it was much worse as it was the culmination of basically what the entire trilogy had been building up to at that point.
Agreed. Unlike Gordon's faked death, Bruce's had no reason to be done. Gordon at least did his to protect his family. Why did Gotham need to think Bruce Wayne was dead? There was no valid reason for it. If he wanted a new life with Selina then pack up and leave, and leave his home as a foster home for the orphans like he did in his will.

The faked death was all just a bunch of flowery phony emotion that was completely unnecessary.

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Old 11-20-2012, 07:50 PM   #171
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Presumably, there were people who looked for him as that's what he told that homeless man while taking his jacket, saying people will look for him. It's logical to assume Wayne faked his death solely so no one would look for him.
Ok

1) Gotham, an AMERICAN city, has been under siege for five months. I don't think people understand how crazy that is. In any city in the world that would be insane, but for a city in the country with one of the best infrastructures in the world it's almost incredible. Bruce Wayne would be very low on the list of priorities of people would be looking for. We're talking about a guy who was hidden in his mansion for 3 years, who exactly would be looking for him?

2) Ostensibly, atleast to the people, Bane's revolution was against the rich. If Bruce had simply dissappeared it would've been months before anyone even discovered this, and they most likely would think he had died during the siege

Why even put Alfred through all that agony in the first place? What if Alfred had never gone to Florence? Why lie to everyone he trusted about the Bat having an autopilot? Like most things in the movie, it just falls flat when you really think about it

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Old 11-20-2012, 08:23 PM   #172
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Nope, and neither did Christopher Nolan.
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I didn't need clarification or specifics, the Ra's presented to us in Begins is a person who's past is unknown and that's how it should have stayed. What I interpreted from Begins was that Ra's joined the LoS for the same reasons as Bruce, because he had nothing to live for. And my interpretation of that meant if he had a daughter he wouldn't have joined the league because unlike Bruce he would have had something left to hang onto in the world. In my mind anyway based on the information provided Ra's and Bruce are mirrors of each other. That interpretation was taken away from people like me and the ambiguity removed entirely. I don't like being told the way I've watched a film for 7 years is wrong, in fact it pisses me off.
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Ok

1) Gotham, an AMERICAN city, has been under siege for five months. I don't think people understand how crazy that is. In any city in the world that would be insane, but for a city in the country with one of the best infrastructures in the world it's almost incredible. Bruce Wayne would be very low on the list of priorities of people would be looking for. We're talking about a guy who was hidden in his mansion for 3 years, who exactly would be looking for him?

2) Ostensibly, atleast to the people, Bane's revolution was against the rich. If Bruce had simply dissappeared it would've been months before anyone even discovered this, and they most likely would think he had died during the siege

Why even put Alfred through all that agony in the first place? What if Alfred had never gone to Florence? Why lie to everyone he trusted about the Bat having an autopilot? Like most things in the movie, it just falls flat when you really think about it
Quoted for truth.

Guard ignore that batbax. He gets on anyone's ass who disses Nolan. Don't let him get personal on ya cos he can't take your great posts.

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Old 11-20-2012, 08:25 PM   #173
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Absolutely. I'm not sure how else the "death" could have be presented, to be honest. How were they supposed to make explicit every reason for the fake death without spoiling the fact that said death was coming?
By using good writing, and not having Bruce overtly say "I plan to fake my own death", and by putting some reason into the film that he'd need to do so...say, oh...

Gotham finds out that Bruce Wayne is Batman...something along those lines.

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They foreshadowed it enough. Bruce lost everything but Wayne Manor
So then he's still Bruce Wayne...and still has Wayne Manor...what's the issue that requires him to fake his death?

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Alfred wanted him to move away and "get away from all this," something he can't do if he still has his celebrity playboy name attached to him, etc.
That's what Alfred wanted...we're never shown what Bruce wants all that much. And we're certainly never shown that he doesn't want to be Bruce Wayne anymore, or that he wants to fake his own death.

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They foreshadowed it in that Bruce doesn't care for media attention (his use of the electromagnetic pulse to disable the cameras).
Which means nothing other than he doesn't care to have his picture all over the place.

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They foreshadowed it in his discussions with Selena about getting a new clean start.
A new start...not a new identity for himself.

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They foreshadowed it in Bruce's continual paranoia throughout the series (even Talia commented on his paranoia), which would lead him to take every step possible to start afresh with a new identity.
Boy, that's a stretch. What does paranoia have to do with the situation he was in at the end of The Dark Knight Rises?

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They didn't need to beat the audience on the head with a reason, in my opinion.
None of these things foreshadow Bruce wanting to abandon his identity or needing to fake his death as Bruce Wayne.

No. They don't need to beat the audience over the head with a reason. But they do need to do SOMETHING to set up such a drastic event.

It's kind of sad...they flat out broadcast the way the film was going to end, and Bruce's final fate with that awful dialogue from Alfred about "Oh, I'd always hoped you'd be at this cafe"...and then they didn't even bother to set up a reason for Bruce to fake his own death and be at that cafe.

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Old 11-20-2012, 08:30 PM   #174
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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Quoted for truth.

Guard ignore that batbax. He gets on anyone's ass who disses Nolan. Don't let him get personal on ya cos he can't take your great posts.
Aww that's cute. Bet the guard didn't know he had his own personal lap dog. Sick em boy.

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Old 11-20-2012, 08:33 PM   #175
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

I've got a bit of work to do so I'm bowing out of this discussion. If anyone wants answers to the Guard's questions above, just read over my past comments. I feel like I'm repeating myself at this point and the argument is going in a circle.

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