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Old 11-21-2012, 01:21 PM   #201
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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Originally Posted by Anno_Domini View Post
Suggestions are fine, sure, but half of them aren't as well planned as what was actually in TDKR, though.
That's where the words subjective and opinion come into it.

It also depends on what ideas you're referring to. If you're talking about brain farts like recast the Joker and put him in the movie, then they are obviously foolish.

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Old 11-21-2012, 01:50 PM   #202
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I would reshoot Talia's death scene and fix some of the clunky editing. That's about it.

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Old 11-21-2012, 03:06 PM   #203
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Is anybody here trying to change the movies? No. Wanna know how I know? Cause it's literally in the title: "In hindsight". Yes, this is very much a "what if thing", as you yourself put it, but so what? What's wrong with discussing the what ifs?

If you've got a problem with what ifs, then my friend, you are seriously missing out.

Quoted for truth.

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Old 11-21-2012, 03:10 PM   #204
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People are suggesting alternatives that would have improved the movie. Only a fool would be of the frame of mind that they can change a movie that has already been made.

Now comments such as this:



Are the kind of thing that are the essence of stupidity.
but they are your problems because they are not mine. The truth hurts buddy.

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Old 11-21-2012, 03:16 PM   #205
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but they are your problems because they are not mine. The truth hurts buddy.
They are loads of people's problems. Everyone has at least one problem with this flick. You can't be taken seriously cos you think the flick has no problems. Even the biggest nerds and fanboys can admit a movie has flaws. Heh you can't even do that.

That's your real truth. Ya think we're all trying to change the flick or something, too. Ya are away with the fairies. Looky at your other post;

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Theres nothing that got me riled in the film. I talk about batman did this and this but never should of done this and this. Please dont get angry just because im happy. I mean no harm.
Nobody gives a damn if ya are happy or not. You're the one who's mad cos others ain't all sunshine and lollipops about the movie like you are. Accept the truth that's the way it is.


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Old 11-21-2012, 03:23 PM   #206
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but they are your problems because they are not mine. The truth hurts buddy.
Your statement was asinine, the man spoke the truth. You essentially said that any problem that anyone has with the film is their own personal problem, which sounds ridiculous.

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Old 11-21-2012, 03:26 PM   #207
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Your statement was asinine, the man spoke the truth. You essentially said that any problem that anyone has with the film is their own personal problem, which sounds ridiculous.
Exactly. I can't take anyone with an opinion like that seriously. I can't imagine anyone who really could.

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Old 11-21-2012, 03:59 PM   #208
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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I thought the funniest impressions were the Michael Caine ones:

Alfred -"One day, I was sitting down, at this very specific place outside of Gotham, drinking a wine you can only purchase in this specific place"

Batman -"wait, I'm gonna need the exact location of that place, so I can surprise you later when you think I'm dead"


That whole bit had me doubling over in laughter.
As did so much of that podcast, but if I were to quote it here I'd get banned

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Old 11-22-2012, 12:21 AM   #209
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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Originally Posted by Anno_Domini View Post
Suggestions are fine, sure, but half of them aren't as well planned as what was actually in TDKR, though. To say their ideas are better than what Nolan planned out is just silly.
Exactly, there's a difference between pointing out flaws/suggesting things that might have improved the experience for you, and saying it is straight up an improvement. Unless a person can tell me exactly what kind of shot and how you would edit it in there while still maintaining the story Nolan wanted, then it's pretty clear you do not have a very detailed idea of filmmaking and have not thought it through as well as you think. This is Nolan's story, after all.

Complaining about things like the realistic aspect of Alfred seeing Bruce at a restaurant is asinine, it is a great use of imagery to convey an idea. People wouldn't have responded so positively to the end of this film otherwise. This kind of thing is at the core of filmmaking and what makes Nolan so successful with both film aficionados and the GA alike. He is one of the few to be able to do this at a level above nearly every other director out there. To not understand this is to not understand filmmaking. Doesn't mean you don't get movies, but it does mean you lack an understanding of the filmmaking process from behind the scenes. Something like Nolan conveying Bane attacking the wealthy through the stock exchange is a goddamn genius way of representing an idea visually that could not be expressed as succinctly in a more 'realistic way' much like how in Skyfall they are not using real hacking to convey that idea, they use a visual representation so the audience can understand what is going on. Audiences these days like to think they're outsmarting the directors or whatever by pointing out unrealistic things (which is sometimes the case), but with directors of Nolan's caliber, this is clearly not the case - they're using the cinematic and storytelling convention of figurative representation to convey information to the audience in as succinct, entertaining and meaningful of a way as possible.

A film like TDKR (and every Nolan film), there is no shot wasted, every single scene means something to the shots preceding and following it and enhances the movie as a whole. To think the ideas they've come up with had NOT been discussed by both Nolan and then scrapped is simply ridiculous, as if blog and forum posters are more knowledgable than any of the people involved with these films. It's incredibly easy to sit back from afar and say this and this could change, but the fact is, making it happen is a much tougher feat. What Nolan actually put on the screen is simply astoundingly ambitious and an amazing accomplishment. Perfect? No. But hell, even TDK is not perfect and has room for some improvements if we're really getting nitpicky. But the product actually put forward is still an incredible film.



All of this could be solved if detractors could just admit that the film is simply not what THEY would do (meaning it is not good TO THEM), because as is evidenced by all the many people who've enjoyed the film and who have delved in to peel back the layers (and still continue to do so), the film definitely works for the majority of people. So fine, you're more than right to come up with ideas you think would improve the film for you, but I'm sure that if you told all these ideas to the Nolans, they would say they discussed it already and then proceed to tell you why they did not go in that direction. I'm sure even with the Nolans telling you directly, you guys wouldn't be convinced no matter what, haha.

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Old 11-22-2012, 12:30 AM   #210
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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So...

-Bane hates the rich...because he wasn't born rich.
-Bane, though we're never actually shown this, really wanted to be at Ra's Al Ghul's side, and resents Bruce for not wanting the same thing he did and working against the league.
-And Bane has an unwavering loyalty and love to Talia, and so he does what she wants.

So basically:
Bane hates rich people because he wasn't born rich. Bane hates Bruce for not wanting to be a villain, for fighting against a villainous organization and is...jealous of him? And Bane does whatever Talia wants because he loves her and is loyal to her.

Mind you, none of this is actually explored.

How is that not a thin character again?
Agreed. Bane's character and his motives were a problem. There was no clarity about his actions and his psychology.

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Originally Posted by Vengeance of Bane View Post
I loved TDKR, but it wasn't what I had in mind seeing the end of TDK. I thought it was great that Batman took the blame for Harvey's acts at the end of TDK. I just don't think that the story we got in TDKR felt like the natural progression of the story.

- No Dent Act.
- Takes place within a year of TDK's ending. (Eighteen months of clean streets)
- Batman is still active, but is being hunted down by a special task force (Blake a member).
- Bruce Wayne is no more. Batman is all BW has left.
- The city fears Batman (terrorized) by him. (Killings)
- Bane publicly breaks Batman (seen as liberator). Bruce will still be taken to prison and Bane's true intentions will be revealed.
- No Foley.
I like these suggestions. All of these would have improved on the movie a lot.

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Old 11-22-2012, 12:37 AM   #211
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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Right, he has a motivation (the nature of which is leading people to call him a "lackey"), and as has been pointed out...his motivation is a thin one. If that's his ultimate motivation, and it certainly appears to be (other than hating the rich and being really evil), it's only touched on in a single conversation that he's not even a part of.

The problem isn't that the characters have no motivation at all...the problem is that their given motivations are thin, (in the case of Bane's actual motivations) not explored much at all, and in the case of Bane referring to Gotham's "corruption", make no logical sense given what the film actually shows us. The reasons Bane gives for doing what he does to Gotham are nonsense...he's just using that as cover...the ultimate goal is to make Gotham suffer, and to make Bruce suffer through Gotham's plight.
Agreed again.

I would have thought Nolan would have done it better than that because he did well with The Joker and Ra's Al Ghul.

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I don’t understand why you seem to not understand my point of view on this. I’ll repeat myself:

Because…

Ra's Al Ghul's scenes actually deal with and explore concepts, like the nature of crime itself, the various layers and elements of it, his thoughts on punishing criminals VS seeking to redeem/understand them, and his thoughts/observations on corruption. They deal in specific ways that inform Bruce's crusade, like being invisible, learning to overcome one's fear and using symbols to become more than a man. They form a complete picture of a character and his motivations and desires, instead of a bunch of vague minor details.

The Joker's scenes actually deal with and explore concepts, like the nature of chaos, the various components of society, the reception/reaction to Batman, his place in society, the idea of a "better" class of criminal, etc. They form a complete picture of a character and his motivations and desires, instead of a bunch of vague minor details.

Bane's scenes? Abstract, melodramatic stuff like "I was born in the dark...molded by it...I didn't see the light until I was a grown man, and by then it was nothing to me but blinding", and that he learned the truth about despair by hoping...which explains how he knows to torture others with that knowledge, so we know he's a torturer, but not how he became a person who would do that…and a bunch of secondhand innuendo about a legend that Bane climbed out of a prison...which turns out not to be about Bane at all. Oh, and he punishes the rich...because he hates them for some reason.

Bane’s scenes don’t really explore the inherent concepts as well as Ra’s and Joker’s did.

Bane is not fleshed out remotely as well as Ra’s and The Joker were, nor is his point of view ultimately as relevant to the concepts of the film as a whole. Partially, I assume, because they tried to keep Bane a mystery for the sake of the “twist” at the end of the film rather than exploring the more interesting aspects of him.



Not really. It’s a cool sounding line that at best boils down to Bane having a dark past. Certainly doesn’t “directly explain” anything.
Bane had a dark past…okay...that’s pretty thin as character motivations go without any more info or exploration of that idea.


No, Talia very clearly says that Bane was cast out because he reminded Ra’s Al Ghul of the wife he had lost. Where in the film does it suggest that Ra’s casting him somehow out reaffirmed Bane’s hatred of those with power having control of those without?


As far as I can tell, there’s really nothing in the film to suggest that Bane, who himself is using power to do terrible things, became a terrorist so that he could actually somehow personally address the issue of people in power using it to hurt those without.


It’s really not that similar to what was done with Ra’s, because with Ra’s, they directly explored concepts. They didn’t have him speak in nigh-riddles like “I was born in the dark”, etc. They had Ra’s actually talk about his thoughts and feelings on various concepts.



That doesn’t really tell you anything about Bane except that he’s willing to disobey his partner, willing to kill Bruce so Bruce can’t foil their plan, or because he hates him, or because he wants to beat him. Basically, generic villain stuff. Doesn’t make him any less thin a character.



Well, some sort of actual exploration about why he hates the rich and the powerful that didn’t involve thinking they were all horribly corrupt based on one man’s actions would have helped.

Some exploration about the nature of Bane’s evolution into the terrorist he became, not just some scant details about where he was before he met Talia, and then POOF, he’s an indoctrinated terrorist.

Perhaps some actual exploration of the concept about Bane evolving into the kind of person he did because of the trials and disadvantages that he faced in his past.

I think we’re past “lack of motivation”. Bane has motivations. They’re just not very well executed or explored.

I don’t really see how you can disagree that we’re beat over the head with Bane’s character and the few motivational moments he has when Bane flat out tells us half of the things he's going to do, does them in a very unsubtle, or another character tells us his motivations or character points. There’s very little that subtly handled in this movie.

I wasn’t. I’m asking where else in the film is this element shown? And what point of view is it that we see in the Dagget scene? That Bane thinks its funny or amusing or pathetic that Dagget believes money buys him power given his current circumstances? How is that an interesting character trait, or even a motivation?

Some of you have apparently made this leap from Bane saying “And you believe that gives you power over me?” to believing that this means that Bane does what he does because he hates the rich because they think money buys power, or because they use their power to hurt those with none.
Agreed. Bane's power over me line was just a simple response to Daggett saying he was in charge because he paid him lots of money.

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Old 11-22-2012, 08:11 AM   #212
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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Exactly, there's a difference between pointing out flaws/suggesting things that might have improved the experience for you, and saying it is straight up an improvement. Unless a person can tell me exactly what kind of shot and how you would edit it in there while still maintaining the story Nolan wanted, then it's pretty clear you do not have a very detailed idea of filmmaking and have not thought it through as well as you think. This is Nolan's story, after all.

Complaining about things like the realistic aspect of Alfred seeing Bruce at a restaurant is asinine, it is a great use of imagery to convey an idea. People wouldn't have responded so positively to the end of this film otherwise. This kind of thing is at the core of filmmaking and what makes Nolan so successful with both film aficionados and the GA alike. He is one of the few to be able to do this at a level above nearly every other director out there. To not understand this is to not understand filmmaking. Doesn't mean you don't get movies, but it does mean you lack an understanding of the filmmaking process from behind the scenes. Something like Nolan conveying Bane attacking the wealthy through the stock exchange is a goddamn genius way of representing an idea visually that could not be expressed as succinctly in a more 'realistic way' much like how in Skyfall they are not using real hacking to convey that idea, they use a visual representation so the audience can understand what is going on. Audiences these days like to think they're outsmarting the directors or whatever by pointing out unrealistic things (which is sometimes the case), but with directors of Nolan's caliber, this is clearly not the case - they're using the cinematic and storytelling convention of figurative representation to convey information to the audience in as succinct, entertaining and meaningful of a way as possible.

A film like TDKR (and every Nolan film), there is no shot wasted, every single scene means something to the shots preceding and following it and enhances the movie as a whole. To think the ideas they've come up with had NOT been discussed by both Nolan and then scrapped is simply ridiculous, as if blog and forum posters are more knowledgable than any of the people involved with these films. It's incredibly easy to sit back from afar and say this and this could change, but the fact is, making it happen is a much tougher feat. What Nolan actually put on the screen is simply astoundingly ambitious and an amazing accomplishment. Perfect? No. But hell, even TDK is not perfect and has room for some improvements if we're really getting nitpicky. But the product actually put forward is still an incredible film.



All of this could be solved if detractors could just admit that the film is simply not what THEY would do (meaning it is not good TO THEM), because as is evidenced by all the many people who've enjoyed the film and who have delved in to peel back the layers (and still continue to do so), the film definitely works for the majority of people. So fine, you're more than right to come up with ideas you think would improve the film for you, but I'm sure that if you told all these ideas to the Nolans, they would say they discussed it already and then proceed to tell you why they did not go in that direction. I'm sure even with the Nolans telling you directly, you guys wouldn't be convinced no matter what, haha.
I said that whatever problems people have with the film is their problems not the film itself. Man some posters hated that comment and said they wouldnt take me serious, like i care. They told me to stop living with the fairies. Ha like they can talk.They want me to find problems with the film to make them happy. Ha, i dont have any problems with the film. In my posts i have always said that people have their own views but they want me to find problems to be like them. Im being myself, not what other people want me to say. Oh yeah i like your post. I wouldnt change this film, this is the ride the nolans wanted me to go on and i loved every minute of it.

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Old 11-22-2012, 08:52 AM   #213
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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I said that whatever problems people have with the film is their problems not the film itself. Man some posters hated that comment and said they wouldnt take me serious, like i care. They told me to stop living with the fairies. Ha like they can talk.They want me to find problems with the film to make them happy. Ha, i dont have any problems with the film. In my posts i have always said that people have their own views but they want me to find problems to be like them. Im being myself, not what other people want me to say. Oh yeah i like your post. I wouldnt change this film, this is the ride the nolans wanted me to go on and i loved every minute of it.
Congratulations, were all very happy for you. That doesn't mean that anyone who doesn't share your opinion is wrong. You sound stupid when you say that whatever problems people might have with a form of art is not with the art itself but rather with themselves.

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Old 11-22-2012, 09:42 AM   #214
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

Sssshhhh you can't say that. You sound like you are trying to change the movie and you couldn't possibly have any ideas that are better than what Nolan had.

How dare you.

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Old 11-22-2012, 10:26 AM   #215
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You can't say you know more than Nolan either, Fudgie

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Old 11-22-2012, 10:32 AM   #216
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You know what we should do? A contest. Write your own THE DARK KNIGHT RISES screenplay. The rules are that your script must be 165 minutes long, can only include characters from the script, and you don't copy and paste pages from the original script. How'd that be?

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Old 11-22-2012, 10:33 AM   #217
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You know what we should do? A contest. Write your own THE DARK KNIGHT RISES screenplay. The rules are that your script must be 165 minutes long, can only include characters from the script, and you don't copy and paste pages from the original script. How'd that be?
Like with most things, I'm willing to bet you'd get a majority of pure crap and one or two real gems

(yes, gems that are better than the movie)

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Old 11-22-2012, 10:36 AM   #218
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Maybe only one gem to be better, but that's it. Lol.

Be prepared to read a lot of crap though!

I would definitely not be among the screenplays. I have ideas, but writing a screenplay or something for Batman is definitely not my shtick. I always wanted to write a screenplay for Spider-Man, though.

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Old 11-22-2012, 10:37 AM   #219
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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Congratulations, were all very happy for you. That doesn't mean that anyone who doesn't share your opinion is wrong. You sound stupid when you say that whatever problems people might have with a form of art is not with the art itself but rather with themselves.
Exactly.

And as for the accusation that everyone making suggestions for improvements in the movie are saying they know more than Chris Nolan does, they act as though they are offended or upset that anyone could think what Chris Nolan delivered is not the best we could have gotten, and any alternative ideas could not possibly be any better than what Nolan had in mind.

To that I say BS. Nolan is a fantastic director, one of my favorites, but he is not an infallible genius who cannot and should not be questioned or criticized. Frankly it's this kind of attitude which gives the Nolan fan base a bad reputation.

When criticisms are made, they are not hindering anyone from enjoying the movie any less. Yet they treat it as though it is just that. The problem is not with the critics or detractors, it's with those who can't maturely handle that there's people who are not 100% happy with what was given, who firmly believe the movie does have problems, and that improvements could be made.

That's just the way it is and it's not going to change.

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Old 11-22-2012, 10:41 AM   #220
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Exactly.

And as for the accusation that everyone making suggestions for improvements in the movie are saying they know more than Chris Nolan does, they act as though they are offended or upset that anyone could think what Chris Nolan delivered is not the best we could have gotten, and any alternative ideas could not possibly be any better than what Nolan had in mind.

To that I say BS. Nolan is a fantastic director, one of my favorites, but he is not an infallible genius who cannot and should not be questioned or criticized. Frankly it's this kind of attitude which gives the Nolan fan base a bad reputation.

When criticisms are made, they are not hindering anyone from enjoying the movie any less. Yet they treat it as though it is just that. The problem is not with the critics or detractors, it's with those who can't maturely handle that there's people who are not 100% happy with what was given, who firmly believe the movie does have problems, and that improvements could be made.

That's just the way it is and it's not going to change.


Thank you.

TDK is one of my favorite films of all time, but there are still things I'm not 100% happy with. I'm not sure I can think of any movie (or any piece of media) that I believe is 100% perfect and I wouldn't change a single detail about.

The Godfather comes to mind, but even there I'm sure I'd find something that I would have done slightly differently. Whether it be a line of dialogue, lighting, score, shot composition, etc.

Does that make The Godfather any less of a cinematic masterpiece?

Heavens no.

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Old 11-22-2012, 12:05 PM   #221
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Congratulations, were all very happy for you. That doesn't mean that anyone who doesn't share your opinion is wrong. You sound stupid when you say that whatever problems people might have with a form of art is not with the art itself but rather with themselves.
i disagree, you guys are confusing the issue here. If these issues were universal (such as how Foley has a pretty lame ass death, or Tate's death was pretty weak) then yes, these can be labeled problems that could be fixed that would have strengthened the film for every viewer. However, things like Bane's motivation, or the 8 year gap, or using Talia, have been heavily disputed on either side, and therefore are less problems with the form of art itself and in the way people receive it. If it works brilliantly for the majority of people and can be argued in depth, than it is clearly not a uniform issue.

Ie, I have some issues with Skyfall that other people liked, but that doesn't mean I think the film is universally weak, I just have some things that would have improved my experience, but I have still dug into the film to see why Mendes decided to go the way he did and have come to appreciate his direction and decisions despite still wishing for a slightly different approach in a few situations. With filmmakers at that caliber there are clear reasons for every single decision. Whether you agree or not is a whole different issue. But the decisions themselves are for a reason - to entice audience reaction in appropriate areas to flesh out the characters and themes. Having said that, Nolan pretty clearly has developed a much better relationship with the audience in action films, given that TDKR is his third go. Skyfall reminded me of BB in that it's damn solid and layered, but not nearly as well thought out from a viewing perspective as either TDK or TDKR.

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Old 11-22-2012, 12:15 PM   #222
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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Thank you.

TDK is one of my favorite films of all time, but there are still things I'm not 100% happy with. I'm not sure I can think of any movie (or any piece of media) that I believe is 100% perfect and I wouldn't change a single detail about.

The Godfather comes to mind, but even there I'm sure I'd find something that I would have done slightly differently. Whether it be a line of dialogue, lighting, score, shot composition, etc.

Does that make The Godfather any less of a cinematic masterpiece?

Heavens no.
Exactly.

For the record the issues do not have to be "universal" for it to be an issue either. If there's a sizable group of people that have issues with aspects of the movie (and there is) then it's an issue. It's not hard to dig up many sources that have the same problems with the issues raised by so many here.

If it was hard to find complaints on these issues, then I would concede it's nothing but a few dissenting voices. But that's not the case.

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Old 11-22-2012, 02:52 PM   #223
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brain Damage View Post
Like with most things, I'm willing to bet you'd get a majority of pure crap and one or two real gems

(yes, gems that are better than the movie)
Well, rather than thinking about how many gems (better than the movie) there could be, I'd really love to read them!

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Old 11-22-2012, 03:01 PM   #224
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

I do still get a very slight vibe in this film that for some reason says the studio interfered a little bit. I mean some of the stuff and lack of smaller detail is VERY un-Nolanesque. When you watch something as air tight as TDK then this it is ver jarring. I know the scope and scale was always gonna open TDKR up but there are something I just wouldn't expect from Nolan. The bomb plot device is very much up there.

I love the film infact I was surprised as just how much I did but I still remember my first thoughts leaving the film were "Great film but I would never had guessed it was a Nolan film". After the first two very unique films this one was... generic in a way. Yes it had ambition and everything but you always knew this was a comic book film which I wouldn't have minded after BB but TDK just rooted it so much in reality that this was too much of a step up.

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Old 11-22-2012, 03:03 PM   #225
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

Talk of the studio interfering and/or Nolan never wanted to make a third Batman film baffles me to this day.

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