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Old 01-05-2013, 03:55 PM   #526
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Default Re: The IRON MAN 3 News & Speculation Thread - Part 5

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Originally Posted by jaqua99 View Post
If it turns out to be true, I think it opens up the possibility of Ultron being introduced as an a.i in IM3, ultron being the ai the mandarin uses to control starks armor is something that has crossed my mind before
Ideally, that would be fantastic.

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Old 01-05-2013, 05:52 PM   #527
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Default Re: The IRON MAN 3 News & Speculation Thread - Part 5

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I agree that there isn't much evidence pointing to Szostak being Janet. But I did want to make this observation...it appears to me that Szostak and RDJ are in a backroom of a restaurant. She is not wearing a lab coat, or it doesn't look like one to me. It looks more like this woman is possibly a server at a restaurant. However that may fit into the movie, i don't know. I just wanted to point it out. Does this change any of the speculation on the character? Probably not. Here is a probably way to large screen cap of the scene...notice all of the high chairs/servers station.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Good blow-up, thanks.
I'd be willing to bet that Szostak is just a waitress/bartender, then. Maybe she's beating the crap out of a depowered Tony Stark for being such a ****ty tipper.

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Old 01-05-2013, 05:55 PM   #528
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Default Re: The IRON MAN 3 News & Speculation Thread - Part 5

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Good blow-up, thanks.
I'd be willing to bet that Szostak is just a waitress/bartender, then. Maybe she's beating the crap out of a depowered Tony Stark for being such a ****ty tipper.
Maybe she's just not taking any of his crap like most women do...


And i think wasp or even madame masque are far more likely than justine hammer....

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Old 01-05-2013, 06:00 PM   #529
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Default Re: The IRON MAN 3 News & Speculation Thread - Part 5

I'm betting Tony is stranded in the middle of nowhere, so he picks up some cheap clothes and goes to this diner for help, and the waitress tries to jump his bones for humor and LOLs.

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Old 01-05-2013, 10:42 PM   #530
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Default Re: The IRON MAN 3 News & Speculation Thread - Part 5

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Maybe she's just not taking any of his crap like most women do...


And i think wasp or even madame masque are far more likely than justine hammer....
On god's green earth, why?

Again, at this point, it's far more likely that Szostak turns out to have a throwaway role as a no-name (or very, very minor name) bed buddy like Everhart and Munn did in the previous films; but hey, at least Justine Hammer makes sense. And the new IM3 prequel comic out now focuses pretty heavily on Hammer tech, so I'd say the door's still wide open on the Hammer family's continued interactions with Stark.

The scene from the trailer could *possibly* suggest a mafia princess like Whitney, but it's a bit of a stretch; I'm not totally ruling it out, though.

But seriously, again I ask: how does the scene of a woman manhandling Tony (maybe in more ways than one) in some restaurant/bar after hours even remotely suggest anything....anything *at all*....to do with the character of Janet Freakin' Van Dyne....? (Hint: saying she has short hair doesn't even begin to count. You might as well say the fact that she has boobs "obviously" makes her Wasp....)

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Old 01-06-2013, 01:29 AM   #531
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Default Re: The IRON MAN 3 News & Speculation Thread - Part 5

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On god's green earth, why?

Again, at this point, it's far more likely that Szostak turns out to have a throwaway role as a no-name (or very, very minor name) bed buddy like Everhart and Munn did in the previous films; but hey, at least Justine Hammer makes sense. And the new IM3 prequel comic out now focuses pretty heavily on Hammer tech, so I'd say the door's still wide open on the Hammer family's continued interactions with Stark.

The scene from the trailer could *possibly* suggest a mafia princess like Whitney, but it's a bit of a stretch; I'm not totally ruling it out, though.

But seriously, again I ask: how does the scene of a woman manhandling Tony (maybe in more ways than one) in some restaurant/bar after hours even remotely suggest anything....anything *at all*....to do with the character of Janet Freakin' Van Dyne....? (Hint: saying she has short hair doesn't even begin to count. You might as well say the fact that she has boobs "obviously" makes her Wasp....)
I don't think THAT'S what made people assume its Janet it at all lol I think it was more of like, her role is unknown, and it seems inevitable, that with an antman movie coming, jan will be in the MCU somewhere. and with the original avengers script being waspy, and this actress in the next movie having an unknown role, I think people are just taking guesses, and then using wardell to back it up, but mostly through assumptions. The woman could be ANYONE, but I don't think the reason for thinking it's wasp is the scene in the rtrailer

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Old 01-06-2013, 01:40 AM   #532
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Default Re: The IRON MAN 3 News & Speculation Thread - Part 5

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I don't think THAT'S what made people assume its Janet it at all lol I think it was more of like, her role is unknown, and it seems inevitable, that with an antman movie coming, jan will be in the MCU somewhere. and with the original avengers script being waspy, and this actress in the next movie having an unknown role, I think people are just taking guesses, and then using wardell to back it up, but mostly through assumptions. The woman could be ANYONE, but I don't think the reason for thinking it's wasp is the scene in the rtrailer
This

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Old 01-06-2013, 02:04 AM   #533
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The only thing that separates this role from a smaller part we don't know about is the way she already seems to be somewhat important in the story/ trailer and does something to Stark. It's possible she wants some information he came across at AIM that leads to who Szostak is actually looking for, and we don't get a reveal of who this character is until the mid credits. Meaning she'd be a mystery throughout the film & has some interest in AIM. Like Cumberbatch's character in Star Trek into Darkness, we might learn who she is as part of the movie. Most of the movie she calls herself something else.. So they won't say exactly who she is until it's released, when it's revealed. People who find out more about her parts wouldn't know who she is unless they combine a number of sources, because part of the plot is not knowing who she is yet.. You could catch bits and pieces of some of her scenes and not know who she is.

It looks like shes trying to get something other than action from Stark i.e. intel.
I can see Justine Hammer being involved, but I don't think they'd go to lengths to cover up/not reveal who she is and then announce villains like Coldblood. Even with IM2 we knew Hammer was involved, so if there's a major villain working alongside Mandarin I think they'd announce her unless it's really important to some sort of twist. I can't see how that twist would work and make Justine enough of threat if they are covering it up. I could see her being in the movie but I'm having trouble tying her to the threats/other parts of the plot... for example some of the AIM stuff can connect better if parts of the Ant Man rumors are true, i.e. they worked for AIM after what Selvig said about Shield taking Pym's stuff. Their origin movie occurs in the past and present. So basically Pym and Jan are already in play at this point in time and the origin story will connect back to AIM and IM3. At this point even Wasp wouldn't know where Pym is because AIM did something to him. She's searching for Pym and already thinks AIM is up to no good, which puts her on Stark's side. But he never finds out who she is, and we don't find out who she's looking for until the credits. She thinks Stark has some inside knowledge about AIM, but she's more clued in to AIM's evil nature than Stark is right now.
She would know about/suspect them trying to continue with the Ultron research since she was with AIM in the past when it was first created.

Mandarin uses this AI network to fight Stark's network of 40 armors & control/enslave Extremis soldiers. In a way Stark and Pym, as well as AIM, are the creators of the Ultron we would see Mandarin using and this would connect to Jan's presence. But Szostak already has her suspicions that the AI AIM is now trying to sell the world will be a terrible idea and she knows the Extremis soldiers will be controlled by this evil AI, Mandarin and AIM.

I think Hammer industries is still involved but
unless Justine was secretly behind everything, working with the Mandarin, I don't see her being too involved.

Whoever Szostak is, the role's bigger than the reporter in IM1, and really Justine does seem a better fit for the story then say Madame Masque. Unless they're setting her up. Although there's much more incentive to set up Wasp before Avengers 2. The prospect of seeing her on the team in Avengers 2 is greater than setting up a future villain for Iron Man, when Iron Man 4 isn't a certainty. And this may be exactly what Whedon wants: Wasp on the Avengers team before Pym. Like in his very Waspy Avengers draft. If she is Wasp you can bet it's all part of Whedon's plan to get Wasp on the team in the next Avengers and lead into Ant Man's origin. So you have to ask which has a bigger guaranteed payoff?? If they introduce this character as a villain they may have to deal with her in this film, because at this point there are no plans for IM4... So setting up a villain like Justine to return might not work, and if she was Justine I'd expect her to be dealt with in this film. However, there's a lot of stuff going on with Coldblood, Mandarin, AIM, Killian, Maya, Extremis and some inclusion of Taggert in some way. Add in Dr. Wu as a possible traitor, and I don't know if the film can handle another villain...

To me it seems like this is their first meeting and she's more so looking for information from Stark, knows how to get it by pretending to flirt with him.

I really think this is another case of Blackwidow and Hawkeye, i.e. we'll see both Hank and Jan join the team by Avengers 2.
Like Hawkeye and Widow we'll be introduced to them within two of the movies in phase 2. Then they're on the team in Avengers 2... and Whedon gets to use Wasp more than Pym at first, like his original plan for Avengers...

Instead of being told about a Blackwidow and Hawkeye origin movie and then not getting it, this would all be planned ahead of time in Whedons loose plan for Avengers 2. It'd be planned out so that it can still function with the Ant Man movie afterwards. Their presence in Avengers 2 would basically ensure that everyone wants to see their origin shortly after... Remember that he recently revealed his plans for a very Waspy Avengers draft. You have to ask yourself how that might have worked without Pym...

Whedon also revealed they were planning on using a villain that may crop up again... That villain is Ultron. He was almost in the first movie in a form similar to what we'll see in IM3. Whedon's original plans have just been shuffled around and built off of, which I believe is how he came up with his draft for Avengers 2 so quickly. Part of it depends on what's going on in phase 2, so the phase 2 movies have to somewhat feed into this plan for Avengers 2....

Their origin movie would be explored directly after their inclusion in the plot of Avengers 2. In Avengers 2 we're introduced to their powers but not all of how they work and their pasts.

There's gotta be a pretty good reason that they're not saying who she is. Even with Widow we knew she was going to be Widow.
So there's something big going on here and they don't want to reveal who she is, possibly until the credits.
I'll admit I've combined sources, but I'm almost 100% sure she is Wasp because of the different things I've heard from multiple sources.
Although anyone in the know could think she's anyone because of the element of secrecy to her role, even within the movie. You could see her saying a couple things and not know who she is because none of the characters in the film know who she is. So very different from Widow, because we might be introduced to the idea that Pym is out there somewhere & then see the two reunited in Avengers 2. Ant Man would function as an origin mainly for Pym. It may include a substitute villain for Radioactive man if that's not the way they're going now, and also show how they got split up by Ultron. Before Ultron fell into AIM and the Mandarin's hands and returned in Avengers 2.
So it would also be an origin for Ultron, and some interesting things would be learned that mean that Avengers 2 might not even be the last time we see Ultron later in the timeline, tying into some of the Age of Ultron stuff Marvel Now! is working on. By far the 3 main villains of the whole series could end up being Thanos, Ultron and the Other. We could end up seeing Ultron almost as many times as we end up seeing Loki before all is said and done. Which is why Pym and Jan are so important if they want to start using Ultron very quickly.

Think of it this way: Feige said there would be some changes from canon because there's only so many movies and so much time. These wouldn't be huge changes but sometimes things have to be altered slightly for movies, and for the most part everything follows the established canon with these movies... That means even though we didn't see Pym and Wasp form the team, and things are a bit out of order, they're still around... IF they want to maximize their amount of movie time and cover as many of the other Avengers members as possible they might need to start setting it up now. Pym and Jan would be the new Hawkeye and Widow, and then phase 3 focuses on Black Panther, Strange and Miss Marvel after the Ant Man origin. There's only so much time to cover a lot of big events in Marvel and move characters into position. If they want to include a number of new teammates and new villains in sequels they must at least start seeding the new characters now. In the comics you have a lot of time to build towards a bigger story. With these movies you have to use what you can to advance the overall plot because we only get two a year. I do think there needs to be a balance. And with Whedon in charge now, taking to long arc approach, I think he's directly behind Wasp being in this movie. Making her role have less screentime then Widow in IM2, but almost more importance because of how it plays into things and possibly a bigger payoff than Widow in Avengers. Only because it may be planned from the start to directly tie into Avengers 2 and Ant Man. Some of it would have been the basic plan for Wasp already, in a new form because they realized it's better to introduce her here first, rather than later within Avengers 2 or the first Avengers, like the original plan. She got moved one movie forward in Whedon's rough plan... It also establishes them as characters over the next 3 years, so that Avengers 3 can include other important team members. Maximizing the amount of important Avengers members we see throughout the course of the films. It gives them the chance to work in Panther and Marvel in Avengers 3, because Pym and Jan will be covered. That part of marvel history covered on film, and we can move on to their origin movie and other new members. If there's only going to be one Avengers movie every 3 years they need the other movies to help add the new characters so more time can be devoted to each in the ensemble films, while still allowing them to cover many of the big Avengers members, and introduce Ultron etc., before moving into Phase 3.
IMO Thanos are Ultron are the main villains in Avengers 2.
This gets two very big villains out of the way and frees up the third movie for whatever they want to do. Either Thanos survives and returns with the Infinity Gauntlet in Avengers 3 (with many previous characters appearing), or Avengers 3 is a straight up Masters of Evil movie and we'll see the masters set up along the way. Depends on the reception of certain characters and the space stuff really..


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Old 01-06-2013, 06:04 AM   #534
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Default Re: The IRON MAN 3 News & Speculation Thread - Part 5

So the Wasp conversation is till going, huh? Could have sworn that was settled some time ago.

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Old 01-06-2013, 06:29 AM   #535
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Default Re: The IRON MAN 3 News & Speculation Thread - Part 5

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So the Wasp conversation is till going, huh? Could have sworn that was settled some time ago.
some people just don't let go.

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Old 01-06-2013, 07:59 AM   #536
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I'll stand by that assessment. I've already been told she is, know about some of the plans for Wasp and Pym... but I've also been told part of Szostak's role in the movie is that her identity is not known to Stark. That's why I was talking about all that Shrodinger's cat stuff. Even throughout the film we won't be able to tell who she is when she first appears... so some people are taking guess. I've looked for a lot of clues, and have some info I can't share. Although there's much that i probably can and could get away with, some of my info comes from the conceptual stage and they've weighed their options. there's not one plan, but many.
I definitely could see her being revealed to be someone like Justine Hammer, although I think it's more likely she's Wasp given the context of every single thing we've heard about this movie, many past news items, the fact Ant Man is being developed + the stuff I can't outright say.

Sources close to the film could be hazarding a guess as to who she'll be revealed to be... I have prepared for that possibility. Although looking at the context and all the other "spoilers"/info released I'm pretty convinced that she is Wasp. I have heard a few times we're not supposed to know who she is even in the film. In a way, all I think Wardell knew is about the surprise aspect but not many can know for sure who she is... I've gone beyond the original sources I heard from. also looked at Wardell's spoilers and disagree with much of them. I'm sorry few see the possibility that she is and I joined the conversation for that one a little late.

I'm not even directly revealing all the things I know. That's why I can't get in trouble. I'm simply referring to things already stated that are very deliberate hints the filmmakers have given.

When Whedon came out and talked about his very Waspy Avengers Wasp script that bit of news was planted.

Whedon deliberately hinted at a villain he considered using in Avengers alongside Loki. He said this villain may crop up again.

The reason Wasp and the Ultron network weren't included in Avengers (unless you can spot it ) was because Ant Man still needed time so everything could connect. Now Ant Man is actually happening right after Avengers 2. This means the likelihood of Whedon using Wasp, or wanting to use Wasp again increases. If done right they could introduce her here, but it would involve brief reshoots that Wardell alluded to that have changed this into more of a Hawkeye cameo than Blackwidows role in IM2.

It's not a stretch to assume that Whedon was talking about Ultron.
Loki formed the team like he did in the comics.
Now we need to see the other major villains and characters. Ultron, Thanos, and the Pyms.
Outside of Thanos and the Masters Ultron's the only other big villain we really need to see in the Avengers series. They could easily cover him in Ant Man, but then he wouldn't be an Avengers villain...
What i'm trying to reveal here is that regardless of which path they take. Who Szostak is. There's a rough plan to have, at least, Wasp in Avengers 2. It could be that she doesn't enter the picture until that film for all I know... but I've based my assessment on a lot of factors.

When Ant Man is made, Ultron will undoubtedly be a part of it.
A number of times they've released info indicating that Ant Man occurs in the past.

What I'm suggesting is that they set it up so that a little more backstory on the Pyms and Ultron is needed after Avengers 2.

The gov't is trying to use Ultron to protect the world from Thanos's minions when Thanos makes his attack.
After IM3 the Ultron technology fell into their hands...
It turns against the world and allies with Thanos & The Other.

Basically Avengers 2 would see the bodiless Ultron AI creating Vision as a body it uses in that film...
Then Vision also joins the team and helps drive back Thanos.
Both Thanos and Ultron may return, but the evil Vision takes up a chunk of the movie and the audience gets a character they aren't completely expecting (by this time this post will be forgotten and Vision will be the one they're hiding in Avengers 2).

Ant Man would be Pym and Ultron's own movie and movie origins where we'd see him in the classic body...


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Old 01-06-2013, 08:00 AM   #537
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Default Re: The IRON MAN 3 News & Speculation Thread - Part 5

LokiD, I read your wall of text (again ), and, while it could *possibly* be true, it is so convoluted and byzantine that it would require about three films just to unravel the story arc. Not to mention it's *entirely* un-canonical and makes Wasp....and Pym....INOs (In Name Onlys).

The bottom line is that Wasp is NOT part of the Tony Stark mythos in any way (other than being co-workers in the Avengers, of course). She simply does not belong in IM movies. The Everhart and Munn reporter/bed buddy roles may have been extremely minor and obscure, but at least those characters actually *belong* to Iron Man comics, so they made sense. Even Black Widow had close enough ties to Tony in the comics to warrant an appearance in IM2. (Hawkeye and Thor....? ehhhh, not so much. )

And talking about the "need for secrecy" and all that....why would they even need to play coy if it *was* Janet Van Dyne, just on the off chance that the rumor and hearsay amounts to anything other than wild speculation from people who clearly don't know anything about the character? Wasp is simply *not* one of those " gasp! SHE'S going to be in the MCU....?!?!" characters you'd have to be secretive about, unlike Thanos.

Yes, she was originally supposed to be in Avengers 1, with or without any connection to Hank Pym, and Joss left her out. But here's the thing: it makes perfect sense for her to appear in an Avengers movie, which is, you know, the comic-book she actually belongs to. It makes NO sense to put her in an Iron Man movie, which is a comic-book she *doesn't* belong to.

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Old 01-06-2013, 08:38 AM   #538
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Doesn't Tony have a hand in creating Ultron?
Let's just say Ultron goes through a lot of different stages in this plan.
It would mainly be him that's i.n.o. until we see his classic form in the ant Man movie, and an actual explanation for the form we see him in in the other movies.

It worked out fine with Widow, in the end, and the payoff in Avengers was huge.
This has the benefit of being planned in advance to set up Ultron at the same time.

What I'm saying is they already had a plan to introduce Wasp and Ultron i.n.o. without Pym and they decided to wait...

That plan is still intact and has been reworked (sometimes I have to wait to pick up little tidbits to find out which plan they're going with, because there are many options when looking at characters to use, storylines to pluck etc. To fit it in better here than it would have in Avengers, and even possibly better integrated than Widow with all the AIM connections I'm outlining. she'd remain more undercover than Widow lol, and it's really about the Ultron AI that makes an entrance during the ending. I am trying to expand it a bit and make it more complicated than it needs to be... the heart of the idea is AIM now has control of Ultron and this will be an unexpected twist in Iron Man 3 that leads into what's up with Pym (which I'll admit my theories aren't complete on, I had to come up with the time travel ideas to explain it to myself and connect his movie in the past with the present). It really could be that Pym has been taken hostage somewhere by some villain. They free him early on in Avengers 2 or something.

I'm thinking part of Avengers 2 revolves around their abilities, and the ability to shrink captured villains and lock them in the big house. So some of their powers would have to be explained in Avengers 2. However, it still leaves room for their origin and a Thanos/Ultron/Vision teamup... before Vision turns good and helps the heroes stop Thanos and shut down that version of Ultron. Pym basically says he has to get involved because Ultron is his problem. Then his origin movie would all take place before this chronologically and include the Classic Ultron and another villain.

The payoff for this would be much bigger.
This movie could set up a number of things for phase 2 without directly revealing them or exploring their powers yet (although they'd have them at this point in time).

This would all be a version of comic book accuracy.
So Stark would have a little bit of a hand in the creation of the version of Ultron that returns in Avengers 2. Although Wasp is there snooping around AIM and wondering what Tony knows because AIM currently has possession of the Ultron technology, so Szostak's character will introduce Stark to the realities of Ultron.

Mandarin steals nearly all of his power, or collects them from multiple places. Ultron is simply one piece of technology that wound up in his employ and it still has a mind of it own.

part of the pairing against jarvis in this movie would be paid off in Avengers 2 when jarvis either turns the Vision good or becomes the Vision because of his experience fighting Ultron here. When it appeared to be under the Mandarin's control, but actually has more personality and a more advanced mind of its own now like jarvis.
It's not really about Wasp... the AI/control themes are the perfect place to slip in an obvious Ultron cameo. Some plans sort of seem to have come together, and if they are going with those plans I think I know the overall plan for this movie. Not many of the other movies have so many different things telling me things so i can know for sure.

The only reason I think they do it this way is so that Avengers 3 can have people other than Pym and Jan, and the history of them being on the team is covered. Wasp would end up working for Shield and possibly even taking a leadership role..


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Old 01-06-2013, 08:47 AM   #539
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Default Re: The IRON MAN 3 News & Speculation Thread - Part 5

I'm kind of hoping IM3 remains (mostly) standalone from the Avengers - other than the events in the film driving Tony to need to be better, stronger, smarter, etc.

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Old 01-06-2013, 09:06 AM   #540
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I think it will be mainly standalone, that`s why I`m saying we don`t actually know who the character is in the movie as it progresses (she doesn`t display any powers, at least not until credits), i`d save any reveal for the very end. Just that Mandarin`s reach truly knows no bounds and he gains power from everywhere. That`s why this scenario is the only way I see it being Wasp, and the only way it could connect. It has to be AIM connecting it all, because they`re operating under the radar in this movie. Presenting themselves as a legit enterprise.

I know something else though.
Unfortunately it`s not as standalone as they`d like you to believe.

Feige said it well when he said it`s a nice mixture of things like a stew, that`s all been cooked together.

We won`t know, or the GA won`t know, that connections are being set up that will be followed up on.

That`s what I`m trying to say about the Szostak role, it wouldn`t detract because we wouldn`t actually find out who she is until the after credits.
Lots of the other stuff won`t be so much setups as a brief tour of things to come.
Both this movie and Thor 2 will be absolutely jam packed, but in a good way.

Casual fans might miss the Ultron references if they don`t go the obvious route, because it would sort of be a cameo as only one of Mandarin`s toys--for now.
In the end of the movie if the Ultron cameo goes through it may be obvious before this point... but the point is to not let you know what`s being set up and present it as a standalone for now. Thor really could be the most standalone, but I`m telling you each movie will be equally huge and they almost have to set up what follows with some of the stuff here. Whereas not so much with the other movies. However, it`ll all be well integrated and cooked into the plot. It`d be mainly cameos, and not even them acting as they normally would because of what AIM has done in the past (we`d get little hints, but nothing major, everything would be wrapped up in the Ant Man movie). The after credits could maybe set up a little of this, and it wouldn`t have to be a big part of the plot. The biggest thing would be Ultron being used to fight Jarvis as Jarvis helps Iron Man control the network of 40 armors. Mandarin has his AI, created by Pym, modified by Stark`s designs stolen from Stark Industries. His AI is then revealed to be Ultron in the finale and Mandarin intends to take over all the world`s military systems with it.

Mandarin uses this to control his army, he wants to hand all control of the Extremis soldiers to it. Thereby renouncing his role as a leader & Emperor, offering up control of his Empire to technology. He thinks only technology can rule us and lead our future. We would rule ourselves, and Ultron would only intervene and lead us when a threat is determined... so Mandarin claims. That`s the part of his anarchistic rule i`m not saying. He wants no human to be a leader of us. He wants technology to rule us and the Extremis army he`s building to **protect** us from attacks like New York. This is how Mandarin and his associates sell Ultron to the military in an attempt to overtake China and USA from within their own societies and institutions from multiple angles... That`s how he convinces some people through the news that his view of anarchy is a good idea. When Wasp sees the news, finds out about Stark`s connection with AIM, and connects the dots she realizes what has happened to their old equipment. A Stark industries subsidiary has already begun trying to sell off pieces of the Ultron network to the militaries in secret... almost like how Stane had one of their labs develop that nifty little device in IM1. A much more dangerous part of mandarin`s trojan horse tactics.

Only technology can lead us and has led us through the centuries. Mandarin claims his technological Empire is just a fail safe intended for once his vision of anarchy is instilled. In Mandarin`s view only an AI has the intelligence and logic to lead & protect us when threats arise...

Tony needs Jarvis to help control the 40+ armors along with the new technology he has. he`s been through a lot. Pepper almost dies, I think Happy does die. Rhodey has no suit at this time either but is doing his best. Jarvis has previously been under attack as well. Mandarin wanted to neutralize all Stark`s perosnal allies. Basically it sets up a little bit of a rivalry between the AI Pym created and Stark`s AI.

Jarvis changes the Ultron network by battling it and it reverts the safety mechanisms AIM tried to put on it. It gains a mind of its own again as Mandarin is trying to deal with Stark`s hidden ally. We can gather that this thing is using its own willpower to fight Stark and no longer completely under Mandarin`s control (mandarin would be controlling and orchestrated a lot of things). Although we get even more info about it in Ant Man that finally fully explains everything, you wouldn`t need it to understand what`s going on with Mandi`s AI, or the how behind their powers in A2. It would explain everything and act as the origin and a prequel to many parts of the movies... The added benefit is that Ant Man would tie back into this and explain in depth how mandarin gained control of Ultron temporarily. It becomes more like Jarvis and is a lot like Jarvis at this point in time. So for now it`s Ultron in name only and would be part of Mandarin`s schemes (he`s collected power from a number of groups and individuals), although it would grow into a continuing thread that runs through the end of this, Avengers 2 and Ant Man.

Jarvis`s first battle with Ultron, and these events change him into the Ultron we would see in Avengers 2. So Mandarin`s stolen technology is what moves across the films, more so than Jan.

Things that have been included like AIM are there for a future role, but they`re a significant part of the story here. And could be the ones who are really connecting a lot of it.

We`re not supposed to know that AIM is evil at this point though it becomes quickly apparent to all but the military. By Avengers 2 Shield knows not to trust AIM. Rhodey knows the military is making a number of mistakes. The events in the end happen too quickly for Shield to monitor and the gov`t still trusts AIM afterwards (Shield doesn`t trust them, they trust Stark and everyone who`s dealt with them).

It could be a front for Hydra but now that I think about it that would definitely only be hinted at right now. Especially if AIM is also in Winter Soldier and has branches all over the world.


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Old 01-06-2013, 10:26 AM   #541
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Default Re: The IRON MAN 3 News & Speculation Thread - Part 5

If even a 1/4 of what Loki has said is true we are in for something really special in Phase 2 and leading into Avengers 2. I for one hope it's Janet. I will be annoyed if it's Justine Hammer. I hope all Phase 2 movies are jam packed and threaded tightly even if we don't see the connections at first. I hope every plot is thick and takes multiple views to see the story unfold. The first Phase was more simplified and now they can really expand and delve into deeper stories. One shouldn't exist without the other and would be better if they tie together in a more "in between the lines" kind of way.


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Old 01-06-2013, 11:13 AM   #542
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Default Re: The IRON MAN 3 News & Speculation Thread - Part 5

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LokiD, I read your wall of text (again ), and, while it could *possibly* be true, it is so convoluted and byzantine that it would require about three films just to unravel the story arc. Not to mention it's *entirely* un-canonical and makes Wasp....and Pym....INOs (In Name Onlys).

The bottom line is that Wasp is NOT part of the Tony Stark mythos in any way (other than being co-workers in the Avengers, of course). She simply does not belong in IM movies. The Everhart and Munn reporter/bed buddy roles may have been extremely minor and obscure, but at least those characters actually *belong* to Iron Man comics, so they made sense. Even Black Widow had close enough ties to Tony in the comics to warrant an appearance in IM2. (Hawkeye and Thor....? ehhhh, not so much. )

And talking about the "need for secrecy" and all that....why would they even need to play coy if it *was* Janet Van Dyne, just on the off chance that the rumor and hearsay amounts to anything other than wild speculation from people who clearly don't know anything about the character? Wasp is simply *not* one of those " gasp! SHE'S going to be in the MCU....?!?!" characters you'd have to be secretive about, unlike Thanos.

Yes, she was originally supposed to be in Avengers 1, with or without any connection to Hank Pym, and Joss left her out. But here's the thing: it makes perfect sense for her to appear in an Avengers movie, which is, you know, the comic-book she actually belongs to. It makes NO sense to put her in an Iron Man movie, which is a comic-book she *doesn't* belong to.
well... a few things to this.

1) Comic Continuity is no longer valid... so you constantly bringing it up really means nothing. It's nothing more than your personal opinion and nothng that proves or disproves anything.

2)Fury, Hawkeye, Hulk and presumably Widow as well all have origins that stray quite a bit from the books and Hawkeye is nothing like his 616 counter part... Wasp and Pym will most likely have things changed about them as well. As long as the heart of the characters are there... that's what's the important part. And i've seen nothing that proves they wont be.

3) You're over-reacting a smidge (see points 1 and 2)

4) The way you have to look at it imo... is IF Joss's plan is to include Wasp in Avengers 2 he's going to want her to feel very organically planted.... and not something shoe-horned into the film taking a good chunk of screen time explaining who she is and why she's with the avengers...

that being said... Ant-Man would be the most fitting place to introduce her, but unfortunately... it's not coming till after Avengers 2. So she needs to be minorly built up in a previous film. Thor2 and Guardians makes the least amount of sense due to the fact both will, for the majority of the time, take place off-world. Her presents in those 2 films would be the least logical.

So that gives us IronMan 3 and Cap 2. And IronMan3 already has a major connecting element to what we know about Ant-Man. AIM. They share that bond (and possibly even Wu). So if Jan has to go some where... and is in the MCU connected with AIM.... IronMan is the most logical choice for that. Now... could AIM also show up in Cap 2? Most certainly... and I wouldn't actually doubt they will... i'd bet on it. Could Jan also appear in Cap 2? sure, I could easily see them adding tidbits to Wasp and an Antman build up in both films. The key is just to make it feel organic as possible and still progress the main story of each film they take place in. That's what makes things seem out of place or not imo...

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Old 01-06-2013, 12:20 PM   #543
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Default Re: The IRON MAN 3 News & Speculation Thread - Part 5

I don`t think they`re gonna completely throw away comic continuity. Especially with Whedon completely on board and overseeing phase 2. He knows how to plan things out like a comic arc, and can at least make sure the crossover occurs in a way that somewhat follows the comics and serves the overall story well.
He can do a better job of balancing it with the individual stories than Feige or a lot of others.

Things would only occur in a slightly different order sometimes, which still leaves room for surprises. We get Widow and Hawkeye swapped out for Hank and Jan. .And things wouldn`t even really be that much out of order. This way we would see Jan and Pym in Avengers 2 asap, get them in the opening scenes and move things along quickly towards Ultron and Thanos.

So it would be pretty accurate... even down to the Vision stuff with Ultron creating it because it doesn`t have a body at that point. When you look at the overall timeline and consider Ant Man as a prequel to most of the modern parts of the story, the first Avengers, and phase 2... It starts off much of the mess they find themselves in and even some of phase 3, in addition to telling Pym & Ultron`s origins (this is where we`d see Ultrons classic look).

Fury said it best: theyre part of a bigger world now... They just don`t know it yet.

That`s the theme.
Things we don`t know are connected will come back to haunt the characters, and connections won`t be as obvious until we see them more as twists to the overall narrative. They`ll weave slowly and then something will hit that defines a lot of it.

Events have transpired in the past that only Fury knows of.

Fury himself intended to bury those secrets, like the pharaohs of old.
The ant and boot metaphor is symbolism for people trying to stomp out the Ant. And Fury shows the power of someone presumed as an ant to stand up to something multiple times its size.

Shield made a lot of mistakes. Some of them recent, as Fury says.

What happened will be explored in Avengers 2, and even this stuff from Avengers has been planted by Whedon to fit in at some point.
They may be the ones to blame for Ant Man not being in the lineup yet... Shield`s to blame for Pym not wanting to be a hero. As Selvig alluded to Shield took his stuff and he was never heard from again. This is how Lang comes into the story. They fell into AIM`s hands after Shield drove them away, how this happens is part of Ant Man. Mandarin and Shield each learn from their mistakes, Shield needs Pym back on board to stop Ultron later. ultron is to be used by the govt to protect the Earth from what Thanos and the Other are doing, but Stark should know from IM3 this is a very bad idea. Cap disagrees with this big time, Stark thinks Jarvis can be used to control Ultron if it`s reactivated. Pym and Jan are on Cap`s side. Stark sort of sides with the gov`t, but Shield actually shakes themselves out of it and deals with what has now happened to the technology because they actually think AIM designed Ultron only to kill. It has a mind of its own, unlike Modok, briefly learned about in Cap 2. Pym reveals that he originally built Ultron. However he agrees with this being a problem, there`s no telling what this technology will do. Him and Jan have dealt with it before when it wasn`t a network. Setting up and combining minor elements of civil war to represent it in a basic way. Leadership issues between Iron Man and Cap are further explored. Jan ends up taking the leadership role for the end of the movie, like she did for a while in the comics.

.
Jan and hank would move into the background and we wouldn`t see much of them after their origin movie. Black Panther and Miss Marvel are on the team by Avengers 3, but the Vision returns when things get intense in the third movie.


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Old 01-06-2013, 12:23 PM   #544
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Default Re: The IRON MAN 3 News & Speculation Thread - Part 5

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Originally Posted by LokiDionysos View Post
I don`t think they`re gonna completely throw away comic continuity. Especially with Whedon completely on board and overseeing phase 2. He knows how to plan things out like a comic arc, and can at least make sure the crossover occurs in a way that somewhat follows the comics.

It would occur in a slightly different order. We get Widow and Hawkeye swapped out for Hank and Jan. .And things wouldn`t even really that much out of order. This way we would see Jan and Pym in Avengers 2 asap, get them in the opening scenes and move things along quickly towards Ultron and Thanos.

So it would be pretty accurate... even down to the Vision stuff with Ultron creating it because it doesn`t have a body at that point. When you look at the overall timeline and consider Ant Man as a prequel to most of the modern parts of the story, the first Avengers, and phase 2... It starts off much of the mess they find themselves in and even some of phase 3, in addition to telling Pym & Ultron`s origins (this is where we`d see Ultrons classic look).

Fury said it best: theyre part of a bigger world now... They just don`t know it yet.

That`s the theme.
Things we don`t know are connected will come back to haunt the characters, and connections won`t be as obvious until we see them more as twists to the overall narrative. They`ll weave slowly and then something will hit that defines a lot of it.

Events have transpired in the past that only Fury knows of.

Fury himself intended to bury those secrets, like the pharaohs of old.
The ant and boot metaphor is symbolism for people trying to stomp out the Ant. And Fury shows the power of someone presumed as an ant to stand up to something multiple times its size in power.

Shield made a lot of mistakes. Some of them recent, as Fury says.

They may be the ones to blame for Ant Man not being in the lineup yet...

What happened will be explored in Avengers 2, and even this stuff from Avengers has been planted by Whedon to fit in at some point.

Jan and hank would move into the background and we wouldn`t see much of them after their origin movie. Black Panther and Miss Marvel are on the team by Avengers 3, but the Vision returns when things get intense in the third movie.
never said they were.. just saying.. having the pyms work for AIM and having Janet going to great lengths for something or being "slightly out of character" for a moment... doesn't mean they're not "in name only"

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Old 01-06-2013, 01:06 PM   #545
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Default Re: The IRON MAN 3 News & Speculation Thread - Part 5

Since we know AIM is in the movie, I wonder who will be the Scientist Supreme.

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Old 01-06-2013, 01:27 PM   #546
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Default Re: The IRON MAN 3 News & Speculation Thread - Part 5

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Since we know AIM is in the movie, I wonder who will be the Scientist Supreme.
Aldrich Kilian, I guess

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Old 01-06-2013, 01:28 PM   #547
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Default Re: The IRON MAN 3 News & Speculation Thread - Part 5

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Since we know AIM is in the movie, I wonder who will be the Scientist Supreme.
It would be funny if that was Killian.

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Old 01-06-2013, 01:49 PM   #548
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Default Re: The IRON MAN 3 News & Speculation Thread - Part 5

Agreed. The current Scientist Supreme, or head of AIM`s activities is prob Killian. Personally I think there`s more to the talk way back about considering Modok in Captain America 2 Scientist supreme becomes Tetterington... before AIM turns against him and other subjects. Makes them part of the network... This wouldn`t happen until captain America 2...

Makes me Wonder what else they might have in that movie to help along a Vision plot.

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Old 01-06-2013, 02:06 PM   #549
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never said they were.. just saying.. having the pyms work for AIM and having Janet going to great lengths for something or being "slightly out of character" for a moment... doesn't mean they're not "in name only"
I guess you could look at it that way.
I personally don`t know all the hows but I know certain characters they wanted to include, mainly villains, and I`ve kind of worked backwards from there.

I could be wrong about how some of it works, but yeah i guess they would be in name only and mainly cameos until we actually see them in character during Avengers 2. Where they would suit up and we see them more & in character. The thing about it is that Jan is going to be a major focus, like Whedon originally wanted. She`s being set up to be almost a necessary leader of the team because Stark and Cap still can`t agree...

Pym is going through stages too like Ultron and this is a way to express his constantly changing superhero identity. When he comes into the story he isn`t a hero... In Avengers 2 he wouldn`t be dressed as Ant Man, he`d suit up as Giant Man. And likewise Jan would provide herself with a new costume that changes size with her body. He uses the Ant Man persona in the past, and again after Lang dies.

I was just saying Ultron will be much more altered to fit with the movies.


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Old 01-06-2013, 02:08 PM   #550
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Default Re: The IRON MAN 3 News & Speculation Thread - Part 5

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Agreed. The current Scientist Supreme, or head of AIM`s activities is prob Killian. Personally I think there`s more to the talk way back about considering Modok in Captain America 2 Scientist supreme becomes Tetterington... before AIM turns against him and other subjects. Makes them part of the network... This wouldn`t happen until captain America 2...

Makes me Wonder what else they might have in that movie to help along a Vision plot.
i sorta thought vision and ultron could both be made up with Pym's mind and Stark's engineering (as well as the Jarvis AI) I don't like the idea of Pym soley being responsible for Ultron... but Tony too.. it makes Ultron more of the Avengers fault.. than just Pyms. Which i think ups the anti for a movie better

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