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Old 11-28-2012, 08:27 AM   #576
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part 6

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Regarding how powerful Odin is, having him less powerful would solve a difficulty for the writers, namely, how can the bad guys advance the plot such that a) Thor is needed to fix things and b) it takes longer than, say, 5 minutes to resolve. If Odin is powerful enough, neither of these items can be guaranteed and then we don't have a movie.

But I can also understand how fans would be disappointed to not see Odin wield the power of which the books have shown him capable.
Yeah... what she said.

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Old 11-28-2012, 08:40 AM   #577
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Could you PM me if you get a chance Loki, I want to ask you a couple questions haha
I sent you one about the Selvig question, and how that ties into Age of Ultron.

It could be a lot simpler than that though, Selvig could just help Pym discover some of the secrets of the universe once they meet. Once all these characters meet I see their combined research opening up many new doorways. Or it already has happened in the 80's when Advanced Idea Mechanics was just starting.

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Old 11-28-2012, 09:03 AM   #578
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I think Odin or Frigga will die. I think a Vanir prediction says it's supposed to be Odin but Thor's decisions lead to the future being altered. However, it's unavoidable and the prophecy occurs in a different way (which is why there are rumors of both Odin or Frigga possibly dying).

Instead of Odin dying the vision changes to Frigga. Choices affect the flow of time for Asgardians more than actual events themselves. Thor is trying to stop both of them from dying and Ragnarok from proceeding one way or another. The killer is that his moral sacrifice causes the timeline to lean towards the future where Odin lives and Frigga dies. Surtur remains trapped but Thor and Loki lose their mother. However the future plays out in a way where the Vanir are not mad, and do not overtake Asgard, so Ragnarok is temporarily avoided by some of the warring groups coming together...

If time travel was involved at this point, Thor could save both because they're busy fighting wars on multiple fronts. His choice, however, leads to the death of Frigga over Odin (in my theory). Not intentionally, because he was only trying to stop Ragnarok and the death of Odin. His moral sacrifice has cause and effect element to it.
But changing the future only delays Ragnarok and makes it continue to occur differently. Odin would die when Surtur is finally free.

Tyr plays multiple sides. Malekith is like a combination of two sides. Two possible outcomes the Heimdell can see on the Horizon when he talks to the Vanir. Part of the spark that sets off Ragnarok this time.
Heimdell believes Loki can't be trusted. But Loki's not the one who's about to spark Ragnarok in this case, this time. According to the prophecy and the myth it's supposed to be Loki but it's occurring differently. The knowledge that a future attack will end Odin's life prompts Loki to play the hero for a while. They trust him because everything is at stake once it's revealed Balder is already dead and it wasn't Loki.


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Old 11-28-2012, 09:09 AM   #579
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part 6

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I think Odin or Frigga will die. I think a Vanir prediction says it's supposed to be Odin but Thor's decisions lead to the future being altered. However, it's unavoidable and the prophecy occurs in a different way (which is why there are rumors of both Odin or Frigga possibly dying).

Instead of Odin dying the vision changes to Frigga. Choices affect the flow of time for Asgardians more than actual events themselves. Thor is trying to stop both of them from dying and Ragnarok from proceeding one way or another. The killer is that his moral sacrifice causes the timeline to lean towards the future where Odin lives and Frigga dies. Surtur remains trapped but Thor and Loki lose their mother.
Oh, wow, that's an angle I had not thought about! You're right, that would be just wrenching for Thor.

This part is not time travel per se, but it highlights why time travel plots are so tricky. There are so many unintended consequences of changing a particular decision.

Thanks!

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Old 11-28-2012, 09:20 AM   #580
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Oh, wow, that's an angle I had not thought about! You're right, that would be just wrenching for Thor.

This part is not time travel per se, but it highlights why time travel plots are so tricky. There are so many unintended consequences of changing a particular decision.

Thanks!
And for Loki, who would then really only join the war effort because he cares more about the fact that his mother may die.. and is only trying to get on Odin's good side again by pretending to care about Odin dying. He wants to save his mother and let Odin die... He wants to be the hero who stops Ragnarok but he only helps it happen in a different way.

See I think they would run with the fact that Marvel is a multi-verse and that things can happen differently or be combined in the movie timeline.

Many characters learn that they have to be careful with their decisions, and the point that you make AIM for with your alteration/attack really counts. Because any slight change could screw things up, and some characters are working to fix this.

The Mandarin knows this and is all about making his decisions and the point he's AIMing to teach occur at the right point of impact.

He knows you have to make your decisions count and learn from the past because he may still have been an archaeologist who finds an incredible power source like in the comics. A power source AIM can't begin to understand. Mandarin's rings are purely symbolic for now, and the source of the power in the companies he has his fingers in. But the rings begin to actually work when he returns to take out Tony in a masters of evil plot. Mandarin ends up teleported/seemingly obliterated in IM3 at a showdown at AIM, this would let him meet Red Skull and a time traveling Ultron.


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Old 11-28-2012, 09:33 AM   #581
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part 6

It looks like Superherohype just recieved some new footage from the set. Pretty cool!

http://www.superherohype.com/news/ar...the-dark-world

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Old 11-28-2012, 09:36 AM   #582
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Mandarin's rings wouldn't be science or magic... they'd be a mystical form of ancient technology that's a combination of both. Unable to be completely tapped into by AIM/Mandarin until Avengers 2, when time travel has allowed him to discover the truth behind the past. Atlanteans, Lemurians, and Inhumans begin to be set up.
The Atlantis references in IM2 begin to make sense.
Namor doesn't show up but Mandarin is the one in charge of Oracle right now. One of the ten rings/organizations/companies he secretly runs.
Mandarin has a hidden empire that's reach knows no bounds. He's been expanding and collecting power to set up an Empire like his ancestors.
He believes his vision for the future and his vision of the past is correct.
When he attacks Iron Man, and turns the USA and China against each other to try to wipe out Shield this is only the very tip of his hidden network. A hidden network that conceals elements of Hydra. Until the time is right for the Hydra to return and reveal all of its heads that Mandarin was temporarily controlling. IM3 may tie Mandarin to Hydra as well as to Ultron. A certain character is actually in the end of IM3 but you didn't hear that from me. The power is a collection of many cultures and groups that the Mandarin appropriated and controls/uses. Advancing the Ultron thread with some of the nano-technology stuff in IM3 until Pym arrives. There would be a little bit of the introduction to a lot of these elements jam packed in Iron Man 3, only briefly passed by so that IM3 stay its own thing until the end. Characters like Radioactive Man and Speedball are there for a future purpose. The after credits of the next movies movies may involve the assembling of the masters of evil against the Avengers and Thanos, they want their future Empire but Ultron becomes the problem for all involved.


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Old 11-28-2012, 09:37 AM   #583
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Oh, wow, that's an angle I had not thought about! You're right, that would be just wrenching for Thor.

This part is not time travel per se, but it highlights why time travel plots are so tricky. There are so many unintended consequences of changing a particular decision.
It also highlights why seeing into the future plots are so tricky. And going back to something American Maid said earlier, if you have characters that can see into the future, then that makes it difficult to keep things from being resolved to quickly, then you don't have a movie. And going back to something someone else said, I'm sorry LokiD but I really think most of what you are posting is quite convoluted and will not translate well on screen. It's too confusing! I try to read your posts and I start to get a headache, I hate to ask what'll happen if I try to watch what you propose onscreen.

I know the Vanir are supposed to be able to see into the future, as well as one of the Norns, as well as Volla, (and I think Frigga and Odin too in comics)... but I can't see ALL those characters doing that. That would be much too confusing and make me question if they all know this why not make a different decision to change things? Why the Vanir wouldn't see things in the future that could give them an edge over the Asgardians for instance? So that it's them that rules the 9 realms. Not that I think it's there won't be at least one character that could see into the future and Ragnarok but they have to pick that person wisely how it works into the plot. It's likely to be a person who will not reveal all or reveal under duress to keep it interesting. I think the Vanir will be more about the old ways, looking grittier and much less "shiny", where Asgardians seem more of the new (and in myths the Vanir are an older tribe of gods supposedly). I think sorcery may be part of the Vanir, but I would be very very surprised if they could all see into the future as you propose, as they do in comics. Really they seem to have done very little with them in comics so they have a great deal of freedom in how they depict them, again I am right and they use them at all.

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Old 11-28-2012, 09:38 AM   #584
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part 6

Also, here is another one of Thor fighting Dark Elves (which I haven't seen before). However, If this has already been posted I apologize.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVJKZxpYR6w

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Old 11-28-2012, 09:55 AM   #585
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Also, here is another one of Thor fighting Dark Elves (which I haven't seen before). However, If this has already been posted I apologize.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVJKZxpYR6w

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thanks I hadn't seen those!

While I'm here I'll repost something here I put in the plots thread which goes along with a theory I've been leaning towards. So take with a grain of salt if you like...

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little something interesting I just found, this recent interview with Chris Eccleston at 1:12 he answers what film he is working on and says "Thor 2 Dark Skies"

well that's an interesting slip of the tongue there, and would certainly go along with the Malekith makes Earth dark for so he and the dark elves can come out to play theory.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:
Note: in the myths anyway, the Dark Elves cannot come out in the daylight due to the fact they will turn to stone. So in my theory, Malekith is making Earth and anywhere else he can dark so that the elves can all come out to play. The filming we've seen in "daylight" is likely to wind up having a sky effect or appear dark in the final version of the film. The shots of Malekith with his arms up at dusk and a strange light behind him I believe is him causing this change to happen. All theories by the way, I readily admit that know nothing about this for sure. But it fits in well with what we know from the synopsis and other reliable sources and have seen so far in the pictures I think. (and not just relying on rumors and hearsay). With this in mind it is my theory that Malekith's half face may have to do with being exposed to sunlight on one side.


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Old 11-28-2012, 10:04 AM   #586
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*resists urge to give another 'definition of science' lecture*
You aren't the only one. lol

sci·ence
noun /ˈsīəns/ 
sciences, plural
  1. The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment
    - the world of science and technology

  2. A particular area of this
    - veterinary science
    - the agricultural sciences

  3. A systematically organized body of knowledge on a particular subject
    - the science of criminology


    Knowledge of any kind



If magic existed, science would attempt to explain how it operates. Magic can still be magic it's just the Sciences around that would just try to discover the new unknown principles governing it. It doesn't mean the principles have to be the exact same as the known Scientific principles governing the natural and physical world. We all ready have example of this in the real world. Don't forget about the protosciences. They where the Sciences based on things we now consider to be mythological.

Alchemy
  1. The medieval forerunner of chemistry, based on the supposed transformation of matter. It was concerned particularly with attempts to convert base metals into gold or to find a universal elixir

Astrology
  1. The study of the movements and relative positions of celestial bodies interpreted as having an influence on human affairs and the natural world

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Old 11-28-2012, 10:06 AM   #587
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part 6

Another vid from Flickr http://www.flickr.com/photos/kavinda...in/photostream

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Old 11-28-2012, 10:08 AM   #588
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It's too confusing! I try to read your posts and I start to get a headache, I hate to ask what'll happen if I try to watch what you propose onscreen.

I know the Vanir are supposed to be able to see into the future, as well as one of the Norns, as well as Volla, (and I think Frigga and Odin too in comics)... but I can't see ALL those characters doing that. That would be much too confusing and make me question if they all know this why not make a different decision to change things? Why the Vanir wouldn't see things in the future that could give them an edge over the Asgardians for instance? So that it's them that rules the 9 realms. Not that I think it's there won't be at least one character that could see into the future and Ragnarok but they have to pick that person wisely how it works into the plot. It's likely to be a person who will not reveal all or reveal under duress to keep it interesting. I think the Vanir will be more about the old ways, looking grittier and much less "shiny", where Asgardians seem more of the new (and in myths the Vanir are an older tribe of gods supposedly). I think sorcery may be part of the Vanir, but I would be very very surprised if they could all see into the future as you propose, as they do in comics. Really they seem to have done very little with them in comics so they have a great deal of freedom in how they depict them, again I am right and they use them at all.
No I know, I'm purposely making things more convoluted than they would be by hinting at things and generalizing. Not everyone would see the future, mainly Jane. Heimdell would see what Jane's doing and inform Thor. Only one, maybe 2 of the Vanir would be involved in prophecy about Ragnarok above. So they're seeing different aspects of it and its more like a motivation, probably a smaller part than i'm describing.

However, I'm drawing from the comics in many ways. I really think the recent talk about Marvel Studios taking big "risks", filling IM3 with a little bit of everything ties into this (Feige put an emphasis on risks by repeating it many times in that quote).

Trying to be wrong about some stuff, and I know I'll be wrong about some of it. I have a couple different theories about alternate ways it could go, but ultimately the writers need to bring in Pym and Janet fast

Linking theories together, and trying to work out a full plot summary does lead you to hit upon some things that may happen, and confirm some of the things you know will happen/how that connects. As information is gathered and perspectives are looked at, my theories change... only slightly. I think many things you and American Maid have predicted will happen, so I'm leaving a lot of that out and how that plays into my theories.

And the decision to change things part would be what leads to Frigga dying over Odin. Which is not what Loki and Thor intended but a consequence of altering the prophecy by making the earlier moral sacrifice. Ragnarok is almost cyclical like in the myths, and no matter what you do to try to change the prophecy it will occur one way or another. Thor 2 would end with Surtur and an almost completed twilight planning his escape from wherever he's trapped. Malekith would be trying to summon/free him throughout the movie, but he fails because of Kurse and Thor changing things. Kurse backfires on him and undoes some of the shadowy plans by killing Malekith. Thor leaving Asgard to save Midgard causes the future to change and Frigga dies instead of Odin... If he hadn't made the moral sacrifice it would be Odin dying, but his choice has other grave consequences. The theme would be that even if the timeline is altered, all of these Marvel events will still occur in some way What's going on at the roots of the world tree, and Midguard, effects the worlds above. And vice versa...tying into the astrology side of magic Smashlilman mentioned above. There'd be two sides to the story and everything happening on Earth has a cause and effect relationship with the future of Asgard and the outcome of the battles. If Odin is gone and all the worlds are at war it's too easy for Surtur when he returns.

Thor changes things, but it has many consequences.
The future's not certain because of choice... that's what I keep circling... The characters are looking into the darkness and the views of the future are hazy.


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Old 11-28-2012, 11:03 AM   #589
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I see lots of magic use

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Old 11-28-2012, 11:37 AM   #590
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No I know, I'm purposely making things more convoluted than they would be by hinting at things and generalizing.

Trying to be wrong about some stuff, and I know I'll be wrong about some of it.
see here's what i dont get, I am posting my theories here because I hope what I say will be correct, and so while I may change my mind, I would never purposely misdirect what I think will happen. But you are saying that you are posting stuff purposely wrong? So what is the point in posting at all? To confuse us all?

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I have a couple different theories about alternate ways it could go, but ultimately the writers need to bring in Pym and Janet fast
and they will in 2015, but in the Ant Man movie (or maybe in Avengers 2 also in 2015, but extremely unlikely for Thor 2, there is enough to cover in the 9 realms without adding them in)

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I think many things you and American Maid have predicted will happen, so I'm leaving a lot of that out and how that plays into my theories
well that's nice. thank you.

Quote:
And the decision to change things part would be what leads to Frigga dying over Odin. Which is not what Loki and Thor intended but a consequence of altering the prophecy by making the earlier moral sacrifice. Ragnarok is almost cyclical like in the myths, and no matter what you do to try to change the prophecy it will occur one way or another. Thor 2 would end with Surtur and an almost completed twilight planning his escape from wherever he's trapped. Malekith would be trying to summon/free him throughout the movie, but he fails because of Kurse and Thor changing things. Kurse backfires on him and undoes some of the shadowy plans by killing Malekith. Thor leaving Asgard to save Midgard causes the future to change and Frigga dies instead of Odin... If he hadn't made the moral sacrifice it would be Odin dying, but his choice has other grave consequences. The theme would be that even if the timeline is altered, all of these Marvel events will still occur in some way What's going on at the roots of the world tree, and Midguard, effects the worlds above. And vice versa...tying into the astrology side of magic Smashlilman mentioned above. There'd be two sides to the story and everything happening on Earth has a cause and effect relationship with the future of Asgard and the outcome of the battles. If Odin is gone and all the worlds are at war it's too easy for Surtur when he returns.
The problem here is if Lawden's rumor of Frigga dying is to believed, it was implied this would happen early in the film, during a big attack on Asgard. And that leads Thor to have to work with Loki to get reinforcements, and he implied that there would be a revenge factor at least for Thor (possibly for Loki as well I'd think, at least this is realistic motivation for him to agree to work with Thor). So she's already dead early on in this scenario. Unless they then introduce time travel so that they can go back and try to save her, but then fail to save her per your suggestion, but then that would be WAY too confusing and open a very convoluted can of worms, and would take up a lot of time to show, and I dont believe we have time for all of that based on what we know will happen so far.

I still believe that the Moral Sacrifice will be Thor returning to fight for Midgard by himself instead of fighting for Asgard against the Bourne Wood warriors (in my scenario the Vanir) and there being consequences to that.

Quote:
The future's not certain because of choice... that's what I keep circling... The characters are looking into the darkness and the views of the future are hazy.
that much i agree with as far as any characters seeing into the future and how that should be handled in story, and that is a common theme when "destiny" is used in stories, I just have doubts it's going to come into it *much* if at all in this film, but probably Thor 3 it would more.

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I see lots of magic use
yes! That's nice! Malekith is certainly holding his own!


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Old 11-28-2012, 11:40 AM   #591
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part 6

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Note: in the myths anyway, the Dark Elves cannot come out in the daylight due to the fact they will turn to stone. So in my theory, Malekith is making Earth and anywhere else he can dark so that the elves can all come out to play. The filming we've seen in "daylight" is likely to wind up having a sky effect or appear dark in the final version of the film.
Doesn't work that way in the comics. Malekith and Dark Elves have no problem in sunlight at all. Remember, very little of the comics are based on rigid interpretations of Norse myth. Kirby was a big student of mythology, yes, but when it came to Thor, he made most of it up, only nominally relying on the myths.

That being said, the official descriptions we're getting *do* point towards Malekith summoning some sort of darkness to Earth (and apparently all the Nine Realms), but it could be a spiritual darkness; i.e., an uber like Surtur or some god/dess or alien or dark power.

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Old 11-28-2012, 11:45 AM   #592
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yes, I realize that, however as you may have noticed with the MCU they aren't exactly sticking word for word with what they've already done with characters and races in the comics (The Chitauri are very very different for one), so they could very well decide to draw on the myths a bit more in some areas if it improves and makes sense in the story.

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Old 11-28-2012, 11:50 AM   #593
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part 6

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It looks like Superherohype just recieved some new footage from the set. Pretty cool!

http://www.superherohype.com/news/ar...the-dark-world

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I second that, nice to see some aerial stunts going on. Thanks for the link!

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Old 11-28-2012, 11:52 AM   #594
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No I know, I'm purposely making things more convoluted than they would be by hinting at things and generalizing. Not everyone would see the future, mainly Jane. ......

.....Trying to be wrong about some stuff, and I know I'll be wrong about some of it. I have a couple different theories about alternate ways it could go, but ultimately the writers need to bring in Pym and Janet fast
Which is why I don't read your posts anymore :/

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Old 11-28-2012, 11:52 AM   #595
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Thanks for posting Marvel Freshman that's the best of the new ones.

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Old 11-28-2012, 11:54 AM   #596
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Doesn't work that way in the comics. Malekith and Dark Elves have no problem in sunlight at all. Remember, very little of the comics are based on rigid interpretations of Norse myth. Kirby was a big student of mythology, yes, but when it came to Thor, he made most of it up, only nominally relying on the myths.

That being said, the official descriptions we're getting *do* point towards Malekith summoning some sort of darkness to Earth (and apparently all the Nine Realms), but it could be a spiritual darkness; i.e., an uber like Surtur or some god/dess or alien or dark power.
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Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
yes, I realize that, however as you may have noticed with the MCU they aren't exactly sticking word for word with what they've already done with characters and races in the comics (The Chitauri are very very different for one), so they could very well decide to draw on the myths a bit more in some areas if it improves and makes sense in the story.
As another example, the Marvel wikia is quite clear about how dark elves have an aversion to cold (ie, unenchanted) iron. This is true of most myths concerning the Fae. But given that the movie dark elves seem to be running around with tech, it seems like they they are not using this particular element of their background.

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Old 11-28-2012, 11:55 AM   #597
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part 6

BTW, I'm excited to see all the harness work in these stunts!

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Old 11-28-2012, 12:25 PM   #598
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part 6

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The problem here is if Lawden's rumor of Frigga dying is to believed, it was implied this would happen early in the film, during a big attack on Asgard. . . . So she's already dead early on in this scenario. Unless they then introduce time travel so that they can go back and try to save her, but then fail to save her per your suggestion, but then that would be WAY too confusing and open a very convoluted can of worms, and would take up a lot of time to show, and I dont believe we have time for all of that based on what we know will happen so far.
Adding time travel to a story is like adding a jalapeno to a stew. It can spice things up, but a little bit goes a looooong way. If you do too much with it, it very easily can overpower and ruin the dish.

Consider this example: _Marvel 1602_ by Neil Gaiman (which I recommend). The premise is that most of the Marvel heroes grew up in the Elizabethian era, and are operating in the year 1602. The time travel element of the story is *incredibly* simple. (And for some reason I feel obligated to put the synopsis into a spoiler button, even though the book came out in 2002).
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Fifteen years prior, one entity, called "the Forerunner", came from our era to the year 1587. A side effect of this discontinuity was that the various Marvel heroes were pulled into the Elizabethian era, born there, grew up, and became more or less their same heroic selves. Another side effect is that the fabric of the universe is tearing itself apart. And not just this universe, but all universes. The heroes must find the Forerunner and get him/her/it back to his/her/its time of origin through the rift, which is still hanging around.
What time travel is in it is very simple. And yet, in order for Gaiman to be able to communicate clearly to the readers what's going on, he had to have Uatu the Watcher pull Dr. Strange aside and explain it. And that story line is enough to fill the rest of the eight-issue run (the first part being introducing the sizeable cast in the Elizabethian setting).

So if they do something with time travel in the big uber-plot (the one involving all the movies), I would think it would have to be simple to the point of looking boring on paper, and maybe coming in only once, maybe twice, across all the movies.

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Old 11-28-2012, 02:11 PM   #599
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part 6

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As another example, the Marvel wikia is quite clear about how dark elves have an aversion to cold (ie, unenchanted) iron. This is true of most myths concerning the Fae. But given that the movie dark elves seem to be running around with tech, it seems like they they are not using this particular element of their background.
What makes you think their blasters are made of iron?

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Old 11-28-2012, 02:18 PM   #600
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part 6

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What makes you think their blasters are made of iron?
tis true, however I hope you are not missing the point that things are not necessarily going to be exactly as they are in comics. So try to keep at least a slightly open mind about that.

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