Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

[elizah72]

Originally Posted by American Maid

Well, maybe that's where they could set Aesir-Vanir relations. The Vanir want equal status with the Aesir and are on the march.

Yup. and the Vanir being after that, or more, certainly goes along very very well with a Game of Thrones "feel". It also has a bit of that sibling rivalry tone to it that is similar to the Thor-Loki dynamic going in Thor 1. Speaking of which, I was hoping we might see a parallel like that with Tyr being made Odin's brother, but this other idea works instead.

Regarding Tyr, what you mentioned about he Althing before, I am sorry I poo-poo'd that a bit before, because actually in Myth at least that is to do with Tyr. He is god of law, justice, the althing, and one site mentions treaties as well being part of what he does. I am beginning to think his function may be probably more as someone who determines Loki's punishment (as Tom said, everyone upstairs in space will have an opinion) and maybe Odin is not able to do anything about it. And if he doesn't like something about how Thor handled things in Avengers, he could make a determination about that, and of course step in if there is another treaty with the Vanir, or if there is to be a new king determined. He may wind up being no relation to Thor and Odin at all. The comics version seems quite different but, it also seems like they gave this mythological character the shaft making him an occasional villain/rival to Thor when in fact he seems to be quite heroic and wise in the mythology. Thoughts?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%BDr

[American Maid]

Originally Posted by elizah72

Yup. and the Vanir being after that, or more, certainly goes along very very well with a Game of Thrones "feel". It also has a bit of that sibling rivalry tone to it that is similar to the Thor-Loki dynamic going in Thor 1. Speaking of which, I was hoping we might see a parallel like that with Tyr being made Odin's brother, but this other idea works instead.

I had not picked up on that, about the parallel between the Aesir/Vanir and Thor/Loki rivalries, but I like it!

(I also haven't seen or read _Game of Thrones_. I won't kid myself about trying to get caught up on it anytime soon, though. )

Originally Posted by elizah72

Regarding Tyr, what you mentioned about he Althing before, I am sorry I poo-poo'd that a bit before, because actually in Myth at least that is to do with Tyr. He is god of law, justice, the althing, and one site mentions treaties as well being part of what he does. I am beginning to think his function may be probably more as someone who determines Loki's punishment (as Tom said, everyone upstairs in space will have an opinion) and maybe Odin is not able to do anything about it. And if he doesn't like something about how Thor handled things in Avengers, he could make a determination about that, and of course step in if there is another treaty with the Vanir, or if there is to be a new king determined. He may wind up being no relation to Thor and Odin at all. The comics version seems quite different but, it also seems like they gave this mythological character the shaft making him an occasional villain/rival to Thor when in fact he seems to be quite heroic and wise in the mythology. Thoughts?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%BDr

No worries. You raised a valid point about the pacing of the movie. Modern audiences expect a build until almost the end; the remainder of the story wraps up in about 5-10 minutes. There's not much time to stage an Althing in that amount of time.

I had brought it up for several reasons. The Thing is part of Viking culture (the Althing is more specifically Icelandic Viking), so it would be a cool exotic element to include (imo). I also like having a bigger picture behind the immediate action. So this political element strikes me as cool. An Althing is convened in the Simonson run after Odin's death in battling Surtur. So that would hew closely to the source material in a way that pleases me. It also would allow for a twist that I suspect would be wholly unanticipated by the general audience: that Thor does not become King at that time.

But it may not fit within the pacing of the film.

I think over the years the myths shifted. As the Wikipedia article you mentioned says, Tyr at one point was the supreme being in the Norse pantheon, but was ultimately supplanted first by Odin and then by Tor (Thor). I also think at one point the Vanir and Aesir were basically variants of the same pantheon (two tellings of the same tale, to use the phrase I use when speaking of our plot proposals). At some point the myths got merged, and someone came up with the war story you mentioned a post or two back.

I have also seen sources that identify Tor as being the god of Justice. When people entered into (necessarily verbal) contracts at the Althing, they swore to god to uphold their side of it. The god in question was Tor (so when Thor himself says, "I give you my word", it carries an *enormous* amount of freight). I have seen one or two sources assert that the gavel used in US courts has its origin in Mjoelner. (Other sources point to the Freemasons' hammer, so I am not completely confident in this particular one.) So it may be that different groups attributed various qualities such as War and Justice to different deities (Odin or Tor vs. Tyr), or this may be the way in which Odin and Tor supplanted Tyr.

Now, the Althing has a Lawspeaker (Speaker of the Law, a presiding officer). Snorri Sturluson (who wrote the Prose Edda and the Poetic Edda) served as Lawspeaker. So one possible role for Tyr in this film would be as Lawspeaker.

The Althing met once a year (at midsommar), and the body would handle both legislative and judicial duties. In addition to making internal laws and dispensing justice, the Althing also handled treaties. So yes, if they settle their differences with the Vanir, they could well come back to an Althing (presumably they would meet more than once a year).

At one point in the Loki thread we were discussing whether Captain America might provide testimony at Loki's trial (since there was a rumor of a Captain America appearance in the film). (I think this was before you joined). I had a quite lengthy post about justice at an Althing and a link to a significantly longer (but fascinating) web page on the Althing. Here is my post: http://forums.superherohype.com/show...&postcount=138

The upshot is that the structure of an actual trial at the Althing, I think, is too significantly different from modern Western culture and what has been done in the books for them to do that in the movie. Still, the idea of Tyr as Lawspeaker conducting a trial at the *beginning* of the movie intrigues me. There's still the pressure to avoid getting bogged down in it, but there's a little more breathing room at the beginning of the film than at the end. For example, you could have the movie open with Thor bringing Loki into the Althing. Thor, as I said in the other post, could provide testimony. Odin's ravens appeared to have been on Earth during the events of the Avengers. Sif and the Warriors Three could speak to his conduct in Thor1.

I suppose if they do an Althing at the beginning of the movie, they might be able to do it at the end (or in the middle), too, since the audience will be familiar with the structure.

The Marvel wikia page says that Tyr was supplanted by Thor as the guardian of Asgard, and Tyr resents him for it. They both are identified as sons of Odin, Tyr being older, so Thor being the heir apparent probably doesn't help either. Thereafter Tyr only appears in times of great crisis, and this film would certainly fit the bill. I remember some members commenting that Tyr was sometimes a friend, sometimes a foe of Asgard.

If they make Tyr a son of Hymir (as he sometimes is in myth), the claim to the throne goes away, and probably so too the resentment. This is of course a departure from the books, but it strikes me as necessary to avoid having another rival to the throne.

Of course, it could be that Tyr serves in both roles: Lawspeaker and fierce warrior.

I like the idea!

[elizah72]

Thanks for all the added info! Interesting!

What'll be really interesting if there is some sort of judge/lawspeaker that even Odin might be obligated to answer to, is it will mean that Odin pretty much bypassed Asgardian justice I think by sending Thor down to Earth to learn a lesson in Thor 1. Otherwise it seems like he would have faced some kind of repercussions from Asgardian law for not only going to Jotunheim (which is forbidden per Sif) but starting a war.

[American Maid]

Originally Posted by elizah72

Thanks for all the added info! Interesting!

What'll be really interesting if there is some sort of judge/lawspeaker that even Odin might be obligated to answer to, is it will mean that Odin pretty much bypassed Asgardian justice I think by sending Thor down to Earth to learn a lesson in Thor 1. Otherwise it seems like he would have faced some kind of repercussions from Asgardian law for not only going to Jotunheim (which is forbidden per Sif) but starting a war.

Relating your question to historical Viking practice is a little tricky for at least three reasons:

1. Viking practice differed from region to region in Scandinavia.
2. Viking practice in each area changed over time.
3. What is depicted in Asgard in the comics appears to be closer to a medieval/feudal structure that appeared elsewhere in Europe at a later time, not a Viking structure.

Having laid out those caveats, I'll make a few remarks.

First, as I mentioned in the previous post, the Althing is specifically Icelandic, the Thing that covers all of Iceland. In the areas corresponding to the other modern Scandinavian countries, the Things tended to cover smaller territories, though over time they became more consolidated. Anyway, in the Althing article to which I linked is this quote: "Writing in the 11th century, Adam of Bremen said of the Icelanders, 'they have no king except the law.'"

Here is an article focusing on Things in what is now Norway: http://www.arild-hauge.com/elov.htm In some of those Things, the king was elected. But indeed, the king was not above the law. Consider this quote: "This law stated that the King was not allowed to do violence to others. If the King didn’t respect this law, the agricultural population was required to capture and kill the King. If they were unable to capture the king, they were required to ban the King from the country for life. The inhabitants who didn’t take part in the pursuit of the king’s head were punished severely according to this law."

Both articles talk about judicial cases arising through private parties bringing suit. There's no case of the state prosecuting a case against someone.

These items would suggest that, if they structure Asgard to be like a Viking society, there are certain laws that even Odin would be expected to respect. (And would add a layer of irony to Thor's lines in The Avengers: "You think yourself above them [the subjects]? . . . Then you have missed the truth of ruling, brother.") In theory, some family can bring a suit against the House of Odin. But good luck ousting him.

Now, here's another element from the article on Norwegian Things that would be very interesting here. In the cases of severe crimes (such as murder), the whole family is held responsible. Financial penalties are assessed on a sliding scale dependent on how close you are to the offender. Distribution of financial penalties is determined on a sliding scale dependent on how close you are to the victim. It's all spelled out in the law. The implication would be that the rest of Asgard would hold not just Loki responsible for his conduct, but Odin, Thor, and Frigga responsible as well (they don't appear to have other relatives). But in Thor1 and The Avengers, the relevant characters do not seem to speak in terms of feeling the weight of that responsibility. The just love their family member and want him to be at peace. So I don't think they will incorporate this element, or at least not as fully as it seems to have been in Viking society.

But as I said, this is an area in which Asgard really isn't Viking-like. Some Viking areas had no king per se, and even if they did, it wasn't hereditary. In one deleted scene, Frigga is furious with Odin for banishing Thor. Odin's reply, in part, is, "That's why I'm king." It implies a certain expectation of and comfort with unconstrained power. On the other hand, Simonson had an Althing in his story. So they could perhaps cherry-pick the parts that work best dramatically

[elizah72]

Originally Posted by American Maid

But as I said, this is an area in which Asgard really isn't Viking-like. Some Viking areas had no king per se, and even if they did, it wasn't hereditary. In one deleted scene, Frigga is furious with Odin for banishing Thor. Odin's reply, in part, is, "That's why I'm king." It implies a certain expectation of and comfort with unconstrained power. On the other hand, Simonson had an Althing in his story. So they could perhaps cherry-pick the parts that work best dramatically

I'd be curious to hear how the Althing was used in the comics, since I am thinking it might be used in the film. Certainly they are going to "cherry pick" and try to find ways to make it work in the film, if they use that. I can certainly see several places where they could use that in the upcoming story (as I laid out above) so I think it's likely, possibly using Tyr as a face for it.

I cant find the picture at the moment but there was one picture taken of 2 guys in green and armor with black over the eyes but no helmets (but those are the ones who wear helmets) and a demon/troll guy with them. It occurred to me that the background is absolutely not Bourne woods, it is buildings. So that would make it seem these guys did some sound stage work and when they were outside posed for a picture, which would seem to indicate there is more than just the Bourne Woods scenes to their parts.

[American Maid]

Originally Posted by elizah72

I'd be curious to hear how the Althing was used in the comics, since I am thinking it might be used in the film. Certainly they are going to "cherry pick" and try to find ways to make it work in the film, if they use that. I can certainly see several places where they could use that in the upcoming story (as I laid out above) so I think it's likely, possibly using Tyr as a face for it.

A quick perusal of the Marvel wikia suggests that they have only used it in this Simonson run. A character by the name of Grand Thane served as Lawspeaker (they used the title "Lawgiver"). It appears that the body was leaning toward making Thor king, but Thor declined and said that Balder should be made king instead. (It was tied up in the Frog Thor subplot, though)

So you could have Tyr as Lawspeaker, or you could have Tyr be suggested by Thor to be king of Asgard. (Yes, Loki too could be named, but you have to admit that's more of a departure from the books than these other variants ) They'll have probably exhausted their CGI budget by then, so probably no frog Thor (jk! )

[elizah72]

Originally Posted by American Maid

A quick perusal of the Marvel wikia suggests that they have only used it in this Simonson run. A character by the name of Grand Thane served as Lawspeaker (they used the title "Lawgiver"). It appears that the body was leaning toward making Thor king, but Thor declined and said that Balder should be made king instead. (It was tied up in the Frog Thor subplot, though)

So you could have Tyr as Lawspeaker, or you could have Tyr be suggested by Thor to be king of Asgard. (Yes, Loki too could be named, but you have to admit that's more of a departure from the books than these other variants ) They'll have probably exhausted their CGI budget by then, so probably no frog Thor (jk! )

Oh man! I wanted some Frog Thor!

I also want Salmon Loki! LOL

yes I can't see Thor suggesting Loki for King no matter what he does right in Thor 2. But certainly Tyr as Lawspeaker is feasible and I think there are enough things he could potentially weigh in on such as Loki's fate, and any possible treaty with the Vanir or other realms.

I'm leaning towards now though that Odin will survive this and the Surtur battle will be saved for Thor 3, with only hints and cameos of him being "shadowy" in Thor 2.

[elizah72]

Not really spoilery speculation but wanted to share this quote from Kevin Feige anyway. LOL

http://nerdbastards.com/2012/11/27/marvel-phase-2-news-feige-on-iron-man-3-hemsworth-and-hiddleston-talk-thor-2/

One thing we have gleaned early on is that the third Iron Man movie would borrow heavily from Warren Ellis‘ Extremis comic arc from the comics, What does Feige have to say about we comic book nerds cluing in early?

“Comic fans are at an advantage and a disadvantage. They know the source material inside and out and believe they can connect clues that lead back to that. And they’re at a disadvantage because don’t always connect those clues correctly!”

[elizah72]

ok so... tell me does Thor's hair look slightly longer in the Bourne scenes to you than the scenes recently filmed? Because if it does then that probably changes the order of things as I was thinking it was...

in tags due to size of pictures...

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

[LokiDionysos]

Really enjoying reading all the great ideas here.
I'm completely on board with some of the Vanir stuff. Not sure if you missed this, but the Vanir are the ones that can predict the future.

I've found this in a couple places--wasn't too familiar with the Vanir until I started looking at which group may have knowledge of the future.

http://marvel.wikia.com/Vanir


One of the first things a lot of sources say about the Vanir is their ability to predict the future, talents in sorcery, etc.

But predicting the future can be tricky. Most of the "time-travel" rumors could be almost entirely constrained to what could be called timeline viewing. In this movie at least. Tying in with the mysterious way Stonehenge tells time, aligns with stars, but means we'll still be seeing dimensional wormholes for now and some possible merging. The device Jane has made, in part for AIM, AIM has this technology too... The Mandarin has access to a human form of viewing the future, viewing potential timelines... a prototype in a way. Briefly introduced in IM3 through Advanced Idea Mechanics, but Mandarin is more concerned with teaching lessons about the past, past Empires. Learning from the past. It's all about decisions and moral sacrifice, making your decisions count. How that affects the future in multiple ways, creating multiple outcomes... Learning from the mistakes of past and future Empires... One of the Mandarin's AIMs is to act like an Oracle. And he has a few lessons to teach Shield on behalf of AIM (later revealed to be a part of Hydra). The company Oracle is part of Mandarin's hidden empire that's about to start revealing itself: The ten rings, the surface groups. Hydra went underground and Mandarin is operating the heads of the monster. An empire the Masters of Evil seek to help Mandarin expand and utilize.

Time will simply be used to set up the Masters of Evil against the Avengers & Thanos in some ways. Because all the Masters come from separate times or in-between dimensions, extra dimensions. One a future version of The Leader, who becomes the actual leader of the Masters of Evil next to Ultron. Starting with the collection of Red Skull from the 40's, who AIM/Hydra has been trying to retrieve from space/time for quite some time now... Avengers 2 would be the attack from time instead of space. Instead of attacks coming from space, other dimensions, or dealing with dimensions between time and space, i.e. places like Knowwhere and the negative zone, the faerie realm.. Someone who has direct access to time-travel looks into the Avenger's pasts, presents, and futures to assemble a team of all their personal foes. Attempting to manipulate the timeline, as AIM/Hydra simultaneously confronts Shield before Thanos arrives to try to change the timeline in their favor. By the time Thanos shows up he knows Immortus is working against him for control of the entire universe/timeline. Thanos is able to capture Loki before it ends and Loki gets to see Hela, before Hela and Surtur emerge in Thor 3. Marvel would be taking some huge risks bringing time into this, so they'd have to do it slowly and there'd have to be a good reason. Like Red Skull still being trapped somewhere, and possibly a need to have the Masters assembled, at least partially, from across time... I won't go into how Ultron will tie into that, but Ultron wants this timeline and this 1000 years to be his.

[elizah72]

Originally Posted by LokiDionysos

One of the first things a lot of sources say about the Vanir is their ability to predict the future.

Yes that and sorcery.

I am really really excited by the prospect that they may cover an Asgardians vs the Vanir story, that strained and rivaling relationship hasn't been explored at all in the comics from what I can tell, and that was part of the myths for sure. And it goes along with the Shakespearean elements Branagh brought into the first one, as well as a Game of Thrones "feel." Also very excited that we might get a new story included with the Malekith/Kurse stuff. While I'm sure the fights will be exciting, I am thinking that part is going to be sort of predictable to watch (even if I didn't know the backstory now), so hoping we get a less predictable more complex element introduced as well.

But predicting the future can be tricky. Most of the "time-travel" rumors could be almost entirely constrained to what could be termed timeline viewing.

That I could go along with, or it's just plain someone on the crew talking about the timeline for the film itself being important (having to do with scenes being filmed out of order), and someone thinking they mean it has to do with the story itself. Or someone could simply be feeding out false info to keep fans busy and off the track of what really happens. That's why I've decided to go back to depending on what my eyes see in the pictures and videos more, and information from more reliable sources (such as Feige and the key actors themselves) from now on, and look up information about characters both in myth and comics and try to figure out how they may use their story in the MCU, rather than take much more than a grain of salt the latest rumors from various people on the net.

[elizah72]

Going back to the synopsis for Thor 1 and 2 I posted last page, and whether or not there is time for the Vanir:

In Thor 1 we have the Frost Giants, the Destroyer, Loki, and Shield all as antagonists to Thor, plus the need to establish the world and all the characters which they will not need to do as much in Thor 2.

In Thor 2 we have Malekith, Kurse and the Dark Elves for sure which may only amount to Loki's amount of time, or even just the Frost Giants and Destroyer's time if there is less to the part than we think. Surtur if he's in it acting "shadowy" may only take up Shield's time. So that leaves either part of Loki's or the Frost Giants/Destroyer amount of time for another antagonist since Loki, is not apt to have as big a part in this has he did the first one (I hope he does, but I suspect he wont). And it's not looking like he's going to be so much the villain of the piece from Feige and the actor's commentary although there is probably still mischief to be done . The Vanir story could most certainly fit into this remaining slot, and I could certainly see Loki switching sides to help the Vanir if he wanted to stay out of Asgardian prison, or saw an opportunity for advancement there, or some other reason and so getting some more time for those characters and story set up from that. (if that's the direction they go in)

[American Maid]

Originally Posted by elizah72

Not really spoilery speculation but wanted to share this quote from Kevin Feige anyway. LOL

http://nerdbastards.com/2012/11/27/marvel-phase-2-news-feige-on-iron-man-3-hemsworth-and-hiddleston-talk-thor-2/

One thing we have gleaned early on is that the third Iron Man movie would borrow heavily from Warren Ellis‘ Extremis comic arc from the comics, What does Feige have to say about we comic book nerds cluing in early?

“Comic fans are at an advantage and a disadvantage. They know the source material inside and out and believe they can connect clues that lead back to that. And they’re at a disadvantage because don’t always connect those clues correctly!”

Yup!!

Definitely words to keep in mind.

Edit: the other thing to keep in mind is that these guys likely will put *some* new material in--lol! So just because something is or is not in the books does not mean it is guaranteed to be or not be in the movies. So we could correctly connect something to events in the books and still be wrong because they decided todo something different.

[American Maid]

Originally Posted by elizah72

ok so... tell me does Thor's hair look slightly longer in the Bourne scenes to you than the scenes recently filmed? Because if it does then that probably changes the order of things as I was thinking it was...

I see what you mean. So . . . maybe.

A couple of caveats:
-Whenever you are looking at something at an angle other than straight on (perpendicular to the image), what dimensions the features in the image appear to have can be deceiving. (Meaning, the hair might look longer or shorter than it actually is because of the angle of the shot)
-It takes a good long while for hair to grow out several inches. So that would imply at least several months of elapsed time. That seems unusual for these movies. (On the other hand, if Thor and Jane are together over such a period of time, that would make any developments in their relationship more plausible.)

[LokiDionysos]

I'm thinking some of the stuff about the timeline is actually true. How that all fits in with other things I don't know. But I suspected the involvement of time further on in the series way before we heard about some of the stuff around this movie. Before GoTG even, because I see some characters who have the ability to manipulate time as the only way of attempting to deal with a fully powered Thanos. Especially if he does start killing off half the Universe...

I think that the Universal Church of Truth and Magus will play a significant role in GoTG, but that Thanos will be the villain. Some of this time and sorcery stuff is being used to set up The Magus and Warlock...

To me the inclusion of Stonehenge, some of the stuff about the prime meridian, the area of greenwich in general--are all directly tied to time.
These are things that are locations in the film, so they were chosen for a reason. All of time stuff could be being blown out of proportion a little. Marvel knows not to risk things if they don't think they can work. They'd set things up slowly, piece by piece, as they have been so far. IM3 may have no major connections except the after credits. The positives this could bring outweigh the negatives. We could see many actual locations from the comics that exist between times and dimensions or in the negaverse.

Some of the comments made by the one guy about the timeline probably aren't coincidence, or references to anything else but time. And he's hinting that the prime miridian will actually be important for some reason. But of course, he could be wrong or it could be false info or something.

This just made me believe even more that they will start exploring time a little bit.

After looking deeper I'm really thinking the Vanir will figure some of Malekith's plan out.
I don't think we'll see any real time-travel yet, but that some of this and the Vanir predicting Ragnarok is leading to it. Only predicting/viewing of the future.
The Vanir would eventually come to realize that Malekith intends to help Surtur start Ragnarok in Thor 3. Selvig begins to understand this because of what the tesseract, a hypercube, showed him. The tesseract already showed him so much of what he needed to do. The parts he would need to complete the device for Loki. It showed Hawkeye his next target... it showed them what they needed to do in the immediate future... There's already an aspect of pre-knowledge to the cube. Already a slight forseeing the future element hidden/foreshadowed in Avengers.

I'm attempting to explain how it may connect to later movies. To help set up some characters in GoTG and Avengers 2. To help get Red Skull from the 40's... That a character called Magus may still feature in GoTG, an alternate version of Adam Warlock created out of a time paradox.

[American Maid]

Originally Posted by LokiDionysos

One of the first things a lot of sources say about the Vanir is their ability to predict the future, talents in sorcery, etc.

But predicting the future can be tricky.

And a little bit goes a long way. Also, writers can seriously mess up their storylines and continuity by doing too much with time travel. If people hop around too much and can change too much, after a while, you don't know what's real.

It's an interesting idea that the next thread can come from across time, but they would have to be careful to ensure the whole story stays coherent, especially for the general audience.

[American Maid]

Originally Posted by LokiDionysos

This just made me believe even more that they will start exploring time a little bit.

If they're going to do something with this, it would have to be in very small doses.

Originally Posted by LokiDionysos

To me the inclusion of Stonehenge, some of the stuff about the prime meridian, the area of greenwich in general--are all directly tied to time.

Some of the comments made by the one guy about the timeline probably aren't coincidence, or references to anything else but time. And he's hinting that the prime miridian will actually be important for some reason. But of course, he could be wrong or it could be false info or something.

On balance, I tend to agree (in part because it's a novel idea to think about, and that's fun). But to be devil's advocate: it could be that they chose it for non-story reasons. For example, maybe there is favorable tax treatment in the locations they chose. (Certain downtown scenes for The Avengers were originally going to be shot in Detroit, Michigan. But they were moved to Cleveland, Ohio, because of a change in Michigan tax law.) Or maybe they just liked the look of the location and it had no more significant meaning than that. In The Avengers, we are told that S.H.I.E.L.D. moved Jane to a facility in Tromsoe, Norway, as soon as Loki kidnapped Erik. For a while I figured that they had to have chosen that location for a story-related reason, likely related to the Norse myth. But it could just be that they wanted to put her far enough away that Thor could not quickly reach her, Norway struck their fancy, and then they pulled out a map and Tromsoe jumped out at them.

[elizah72]

Originally Posted by American Maid

Yup!!

Definitely words to keep in mind.

Edit: the other thing to keep in mind is that these guys likely will put *some* new material in--lol! So just because something is or is not in the books does not mean it is guaranteed to be or not be in the movies. So we could correctly connect something to events in the books and still be wrong because they decided todo something different.

Exactly! And if they are smart then they will most definitely try to surprise the comic book audience as well as the general audience by switching things around a bit.

Originally Posted by American Maid

I see what you mean. So . . . maybe.

A couple of caveats:
-Whenever you are looking at something at an angle other than straight on (perpendicular to the image), what dimensions the features in the image appear to have can be deceiving. (Meaning, the hair might look longer or shorter than it actually is because of the angle of the shot)
-It takes a good long while for hair to grow out several inches. So that would imply at least several months of elapsed time. That seems unusual for these movies. (On the other hand, if Thor and Jane are together over such a period of time, that would make any developments in their relationship more plausible.)

Yes, it's hard to tell. But then I wondered if the Malekith/Thor stuff filming last week could be not that long after he gets back to Asgard, maybe just after they've had a trial and decide Loki's punishment. Then several months later he's fighting in the Bourne scenes, this way Loki has been in prison for several months at least before he gets out and has to work with Thor (if that rumor is correct). Not that I think Jane will be on Asgard for all that time, but maybe... (I'd think she'd want to stay on Earth and do sciencey stuff ) or maybe that stuff is a reunion scene for them, then they are separated again for a time, then they are reunited again later for whatever reason (Odin wanting her to stop her work, or possession, or Malekith trying to kidnap her...)

Originally Posted by LokiDionysos

After looking deeper I'm really thinking the Vanir will figure some of Malekith's plan out.
I don't think we'll see any real time-travel yet, but that some of it and the Vanir predicting Ragnarok is leading to it. Only predicting/viewing of the future.
The Vanir would eventually come to realize that Malekith intends to help Surtur start Ragnarok in Thor 3.

could be. Or, Odin knows some things himself he's not telling anyone. And Frigga has been referenced as originally a Vanir in the comics I believe, although I don't have the impression she can predict the future, otherwise she wouldn't have let Loki take the throne.

But as far as Odin predicting the future, I was thinking the other day what if he took Loki as a baby, knowing he may have something to do with Ragnarok, but he couldn't bring himself to kill an "innocent child" so he took him in to raise him as his own, in hopes that might change the future. The marks on Loki's head are different than the rest of the Frost giants, as well as other features being different such as his hair, as I've said in other threads, and could mean he's half frost giant, or could be a mark of a "special" child, or both or neither (as I'm sure someone will come along and point out, so beat you to the punch! )

I'm attempting to explain how it may connect to later movies. To help set up some characters in GoTG and Avengers 2. To help get Red Skull from the 40's... That a character called Magus may still feature in GoTG, an alternate version of Adam Warlock created out of a time paradox.

I think though we best concentrate on what we think will happen in Thor 2 rather than get into the other films, since they aren't necessarily THAT connected (some yes, but this movie is supposed to be about Thor's world not GOTG and Adam Warlock and Avengers)

Originally Posted by American Maid

And a little bit goes a long way. Also, writers can seriously mess up their storylines and continuity by doing too much with time travel. If people hop around too much and can change too much, after a while, you don't know what's real.

It's an interesting idea that the next thread can come from across time, but they would have to be careful to ensure the whole story stays coherent, especially for the general audience.

Exactly, it's a BIIIIIIIIG can o worms for them to open, and I might add completely unnecessary to open in the Thor series.

[American Maid]

In the main spoilers thread, LokiDionysos said:

In my view Hela needs more souls to overcome the enchantment preventing her and Surtur from ever returning to physical existence...

So the reason she has to possess Jane is that Surtur tried to kill Odin once before and Odin has banished them from existence. Hela is beginning to be able to operate in Midgard. She cannot enter the physical world and needs to continue feeding Surtur Asgardian souls from the battle raging above to bring him and herself to full power... Malekith has been contacted to raise a little hell because of his connection to the dark side of universe and magic

So, to flex this idea a little bit more, why Jane, of all the Midgardians to choose from? I had put forward the idea that Jane is targeted because of her portal knowledge; your scenario seems not to rely on that. I had also supposed Malekith would be unlikely to know of Thor's connection to her. The only people who were there for Thor kissing her hand were the other Asgardians and Jane's crew (Darcy and Erik). Coulson must have gotten the idea by seeing them fly off to the landing site; there were only a few other S.H.I.E.L.D. agents there for that. So it seems unlikely that Hela or Surtur would know (or care) about this little would-be romance. Which again leaves us with "why Jane?" ("Why Darcy?" post-Jane is a little easier, since presumably she is around Jane at the time.)

[LokiDionysos]

Originally Posted by American Maid

If they're going to do something with this, it would have to be in very small doses.



On balance, I tend to agree (in part because it's a novel idea to think about, and that's fun). But to be devil's advocate: it could be that they chose it for non-story reasons. For example, maybe there is favorable tax treatment in the locations they chose. (Certain downtown scenes for The Avengers were originally going to be shot in Detroit, Michigan. But they were moved to Cleveland, Ohio, because of a change in Michigan tax law.) Or maybe they just liked the look of the location and it had no more significant meaning than that. In The Avengers, we are told that S.H.I.E.L.D. moved Jane to a facility in Tromsoe, Norway, as soon as Loki kidnapped Erik. For a while I figured that they had to have chosen that location for a story-related reason, likely related to the Norse myth. But it could just be that they wanted to put her far enough away that Thor could not quickly reach her, Norway struck their fancy, and then they pulled out a map and Tromsoe jumped out at them.

It's just that the Prime Meridian dividing the world also reminds me too much of Malekith's face. I suspect it was chosen for story reasons and ties in with Malekith's past, how his face ended up that way.

Certain possibilities that were denied in the past are being held back. A future battle between Surtur and Odin that's almost predestined to occur is being triggered. Somewhat cyclical as outlined in the myths. The threat of Ragnarok will always return.
Ragnarok is unavoidable and foretold to occur at the end of the cycle.
And it has the potential to destroy all of Yggdrasil.

[elizah72]

Originally Posted by American Maid

So, to flex this idea a little bit more, why Jane, of all the Midgardians to choose from? I had put forward the idea that Jane is targeted because of her portal knowledge; your scenario seems not to rely on that. I had also supposed Malekith would be unlikely to know of Thor's connection to her. The only people who were there for Thor kissing her hand were the other Asgardians and Jane's crew (Darcy and Erik). Coulson must have gotten the idea by seeing them fly off to the landing site; there were only a few other S.H.I.E.L.D. agents there for that. So it seems unlikely that Hela or Surtur would know (or care) about this little would-be romance. Which again leaves us with "why Jane?" ("Why Darcy?" post-Jane is a little easier, since presumably she is around Jane at the time.)

Loki knows about Thor and Jane based on his comment to Thor at the end of Thor 1 "don't tell me it was that woman!" and "if you destroy the bridge you'll never see her again!" etc... so Loki could certainly let it slip if he's still steamed at brother, but that would require Loki and Malekith scenes which I'm having trouble working into the scenario at the moment.

Or it could be due to her and Erik's knowledge of portals that Malekith wants her, which as you have said is a less cliché scenario then just having her kidnaped because she's the hero's girlfriend.

[LokiDionysos]

Originally Posted by American Maid

In the main spoilers thread, LokiDionysos said:



So, to flex this idea a little bit more, why Jane, of all the Midgardians to choose from? I had put forward the idea that Jane is targeted because of her portal knowledge; your scenario seems not to rely on that. I had also supposed Malekith would be unlikely to know of Thor's connection to her. The only people who were there for Thor kissing her hand were the other Asgardians and Jane's crew (Darcy and Erik). Coulson must have gotten the idea by seeing them fly off to the landing site; there were only a few other S.H.I.E.L.D. agents there for that. So it seems unlikely that Hela or Surtur would know (or care) about this little would-be romance. Which again leaves us with "why Jane?" ("Why Darcy?" post-Jane is a little easier, since presumably she is around Jane at the time.)

It would have to do with their research in my theory too. The new big bulky camera looking thing in one of the pictures. But AIM is involved in this technology in a small way, as well as the Mandarin. In my theory Mandarin is a little bit of an Oracle and kicks off some of this with his lessons about Empires of the past. "To understand the future, you must first understand the past". The Mandarin might still have been an archaeologist at one point. He studies, and is a collection of many cultural elements. AIMs to teach the world about his vision of the past. They're not really targeting Jane, Jane just happens to be close to Selvig and gets drawn into it in more ways than one. It's Selvig's understanding of the cube, their proximity to the situation, and his knowledge/exposure to the cube that allows Jane to complete their research and makes them a target for the revival of Surtur and Hela into physical existence. Darcy becomes the victim closer to the end, after Jane and Selvig both shake off the malevolent spirit. Selvig can shake off possessions, and see what the cube is telling him more clearly now. It told him/showed him/allowed him to build in the kill-switch in the portal generator. Even under Loki's influence and the power of the cube, Selvig still had some control and knew just what to do ahead of time.

Odin has already battled Surtur before in the past and thought he trapped them for all Eternity. But the threat of Ragnarok will always return. Hela was seen as a traitor, but only half of Malekith was banished to non-existence by Odin's temporal vortex.

[American Maid]

<What Thor's hair length might imply about the time-ordering of various scenes in the film.>

Originally Posted by elizah72

Yes, it's hard to tell. But then I wondered if the Malekith/Thor stuff filming last week could be not that long after he gets back to Asgard, maybe just after they've had a trial and decide Loki's punishment. Then several months later he's fighting in the Bourne scenes, this way Loki has been in prison for several months at least before he gets out and has to work with Thor (if that rumor is correct). Not that I think Jane will be on Asgard for all that time, but maybe... (I'd think she'd want to stay on Earth and do sciencey stuff ) or maybe that stuff is a reunion scene for them, then they are separated again for a time, then they are reunited again later for whatever reason (Odin wanting her to stop her work, or possession, or Malekith trying to kidnap her...)

That's an interesting idea. That would be really exciting to start out the film with a big fight. I was going to express the reservation that big fights tend to come at the end, and this looks like a big fight. But maybe they'll have something even bigger at the end

Naturally, Jane would want to continue doing sciencey stuff. But Asgard might be a great place to do that. Think of it: she could conduct measurements from another corner of the universe that, to the best of anyone's knowledge, no other human has had access to! (And can you see Thor trying to sell her on the idea of going to Asgard with that angle? hee hee)

Originally Posted by elizah72

And Frigga has been referenced as originally a Vanir in the comics I believe, although I don't have the impression she can predict the future, otherwise she wouldn't have let Loki take the throne.

Actually, Frigg in myth is able to predict the future through her dreams, but in general she does not reveal what she sees. An exception was when she dreamed of the death of her son Baldr being the trigger for the Ragnaroek. She asked all living things to swear to protect him. All things, that is, except for the mistletoe plant, which seemed too young to swear an oath. Loki took advantage of this oversight and made an arrow with mistletoe sap on it. He talked someone into shooting the arrow at Baldr (forget the details), and the rest is Ragnaroek (well, there was a detail where they went down to Hel to ask Hel for Baldr's soul back, too). They used a similar storyline in the books.

Originally Posted by elizah72

But as far as Odin predicting the future, I was thinking the other day what if he took Loki as a baby, knowing he may have something to do with Ragnarok, but he couldn't bring himself to kill an "innocent child" so he took him in to raise him as his own, in hopes that might change the future.

I like this idea! Also, there is a storyline in the books as I recall in which Balder was hidden among the Asgardian aristocracy and not told of his heritage in the hopes that it would prevent his death and the Ragnarok. (It may be the same storyline I referenced above). So maybe they are swiping a few elements from Balder's story to graft onto Loki's. Now *that* would be a surprise for the audience!

Originally Posted by elizah72

I think though we best concentrate on what we think will happen in Thor 2 rather than get into the other films, since they aren't necessarily THAT connected (some yes, but this movie is supposed to be about Thor's world not GOTG and Adam Warlock and Avengers)

I for one will be better able to participate in the Thor2 part of the dialogue. I have been focusing on coming up to speed on Thor's world, and I haven't had much time to read about characters in the other parts of the Marvel universe.

[American Maid]

Originally Posted by LokiDionysos

It's just that the Prime Meridian dividing the world also reminds me too much of Malekith's face. I suspect it was chosen for story reasons and ties in with Malekith's past, how his face ended up that way.

Certain possibilities that were denied in the past are being held back. A future battle between Surtur and Odin that's almost predestined to occur is being triggered. Somewhat cyclical as outlined in the myths. The threat of Ragnarok will always return.
Ragnarok is unavoidable and foretold to occur at the end of the cycle.
And it has the potential to destroy all of Yggdrasil.

I can see that! Cool.

[American Maid]

<why Jane?>

Originally Posted by elizah72

Loki knows about Thor and Jane based on his comment to Thor at the end of Thor 1 "don't tell me it was that woman!" and "if you destroy the bridge you'll never see her again!" etc... so Loki could certainly let it slip if he's still steamed at brother, but that would require Loki and Malekith scenes which I'm having trouble working into the scenario at the moment.

Well, the on-line script has the line "don't tell me it was a woman" (indefinite article). However, Hiddleston does deliver it as "don't tell me it was that woman" (definite article). I had always thought that was a bit of a stretch for him to know about Jane specifically. I liked it better that he just made an educated guess and was able to needle Thor about it.

Loki wouldn't need to have a scene with Malekith necessarily, if you are willing to have him meet the big bad(s) of Thor2 while he was in the abyss before The Avengers. And then someone tells Malekith. Basically, you'd have to suppose all the baddies gossip about Thor lol.

Originally Posted by elizah72

Or it could be due to her and Erik's knowledge of portals that Malekith wants her, which as you have said is a less cliché scenario then just having her kidnaped because she's the hero's girlfriend.

Originally Posted by LokiDionysos

It would have to do with their research in my theory too. The new big bulky camera looking thing in one of the pictures. . . . They're not really targeting Jane, Jane just happens to be close to Selvig and gets drawn into it in more ways than one. It's Selvig's understanding of the cube, their proximity to the situation, and his knowledge/exposure to the cube that allows Jane to complete their research and makes them a target for the revival of Surtur and Hela into physical existence. Darcy becomes the victim closer to the end, after Jane and Selvig both shake off the malevolent spirit.

Okay. Well, as Elizah points out, I prefer a scenario where it's her research that gets her embroiled, as that is less cliche. And I had figured Erik's exposure to the Tesseract would help the portal research once they were able to work together again.

But that leads to another loose end: if it's Erik's connection that's the draw, why not target Erik? But it sounds like you (LokiDionysos) are allowing for Erik to be targeted too. (Although people might say, "Erik has been possessed *again*?")

Another random thought concerning portals: I have been thinking about the power requirements for portals. They needed Stark Tower's energy source to stabilize the portal in The Avengers. The power restriction might be one limit on the Midgardians jumping all around the universe. I wonder if Jane & Co. might use Stonehenge to open their portal. Maybe it already has connections to significant (magical) energy sources.