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Old 12-19-2012, 08:44 PM   #451
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

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and I actually love the idea of loki in prophecy being the one to trigger ragnarok.
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I think it's possible that could be a prophecy that only Odin knows about yes, even in MCU, and maybe that's the real reason he took him. He knew he might cause Ragnarok but he couldn't kill an innocent child, and so took him to try to change that destiny.
I like this idea too!

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That would be one hell of one more bomb to drop on Loki though, in addition to what's already been dropped on him.
But at least he would finally know that he is important in the cosmos! ha.


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As you might guess I'm not crazy about him teaming with Surtur to cause Ragnarok in MCU, but possible, if the go in that direction.
Doesn't kid Loki similarly engage with some dangerous people?

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I could see him find some peace with his family in Thor 2, then maybe in Thor 3 find out about the prophecy, and go off the deep end again for a bit maybe because of it, screw up and begin to feel torment about whether he can fight destiny or if it is what it is, and he is what he is. So that could be interesting and certainly lots of "meat" for Tom to sink his teeth into, along with some for Chris too as Thor tries to bring him brother back yet again, along with stopping Ragnarok. So could work.
Well, if they do something like this in a Thor3, it would have to be part of a bigger theme, perhaps something like, "Can you change your destiny?" I would want to see Thor grappling with this question on a larger scale, with Loki's subplot being an example to parallel what Thor is dealing with.

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Old 12-19-2012, 08:48 PM   #452
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Tyr also has a thing for Sif in the comics apparently and is very jealous of Thor's relationship with her. Considering the age of the actor would be interesting if they did anything with that. LOL
Oh yeah, I had forgotten about Tyr's interest in Sif. As for the age difference, it wouldn't be the first time that Hollywood has matched a guy to a gal that was a fair bit younger.

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Old 12-19-2012, 10:53 PM   #453
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Jon(Aqua99) said:



I like this idea too!



But at least he would finally know that he is important in the cosmos! ha.




Doesn't kid Loki similarly engage with some dangerous people?



Well, if they do something like this in a Thor3, it would have to be part of a bigger theme, perhaps something like, "Can you change your destiny?" I would want to see Thor grappling with this question on a larger scale, with Loki's subplot being an example to parallel what Thor is dealing with.
Kid Loki is a joke. Worst loki yet. He was...interesting as a woman, but Loki is at his best as typical loki loki. I don't like kid loki

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Old 12-19-2012, 11:28 PM   #454
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

I loved Kid Loki especially that time he went to hang out with the X-Men and had an uniform and everything...

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Old 12-19-2012, 11:47 PM   #455
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I loved Kid Loki especially that time he went to hang out with the X-Men and had an uniform and everything...
which is why i hate him lol

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Old 12-20-2012, 06:38 AM   #456
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Kid Loki is a joke. Worst loki yet. He was...interesting as a woman, but Loki is at his best as typical loki loki. I don't like kid loki
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I loved Kid Loki especially that time he went to hang out with the X-Men and had an uniform and everything...
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which is why i hate him lol
Curmudgeon, much?

What I've seen of him I liked ericadawn16. Hate LadyLoki though.. and typical comics Loki Loki is the pits in my opinion, much prefer MCU Loki. There. Now I'm being a curmudgeon.



Marvel Freshman reported on CBM this morning a quote from Tom about if his character will return in A2, and it sounds doubtful.
http://movies.uk.msn.com/news/hiddle...-in-avengers-2


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“I don't know,” he said. “And that really is the honest answer. I know I've been known for obfuscation in other quarters, but I have no idea. I haven't spoken to Joss. He's definitely doing it. So I suspect not, only because I think that probably the audiences are tired of Loki being the bad guy. Maybe the Avengers need somebody else to fight. But I'd love to be part of it again.”
I'm actually fine with this, because I don't want one of his contracted films to be wasted on some tiny part in it... and I agree the audience will get sick of it fast if they just have them fight the same villains over and over. But it would seem like they'd have to come up with a reason why Thanos hasn't gone after him, since it's very unlikely he'll be a part of Thor 2 at all. Maybe Loki manages to hide from Thanos for a while, or maybe Thanos is not as concerned about him as we first thought (it was The Other that made that threat, not Thanos, after all)

However do note this is a clear indication that his character is at least still alive at the end of Thor 2, wouldn't you say?

And another article this morning of interest on Avengers/A2
http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Aveng...ain-34698.html

Hmmm.... who could have been teamed up with Loki in that story to be a strong physical challenge to the Avengers, who also could be used in future Avengers films?


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Old 12-20-2012, 10:05 AM   #457
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Curmudgeon, much?
Aw, give him a break--he's on a slow decline; he'll be 48 before he knows it .

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I'm actually fine with this, because I don't want one of his contracted films to be wasted on some tiny part in it...
You treat it like it's a finite resource! I mean, if they run out of contracted slots, and they still want him in a film, they can enter a new contract. There will still be lawyers in the year 2023.

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and I agree the audience will get sick of it fast if they just have them fight the same villains over and over.
Agreed.

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And another article this morning of interest on Avengers/A2
http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Aveng...ain-34698.html
What I find startling is that at first Joss Whedon did *not* want to have just Loki. The reason I'm surprised is that I read an account from Hiddleston saying he met with Whedon and Whedon told him he was convinced Hiddleston could carry the whole thing. This puts a different spin on things.

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Old 12-20-2012, 10:13 AM   #458
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You treat it like it's a finite resource! I mean, if they run out of contracted slots, and they still want him in a film, they can enter a new contract. There will still be lawyers in the year 2023.
true.... I'm just afraid he'll be all Sir Alec Guinnessy about it by then. Though I can't imagine Tom losing his enthusiasm about it so much.


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What I find startling is that at first Joss Whedon did *not* want to have just Loki. The reason I'm surprised is that I read an account from Hiddleston saying he met with Whedon and Whedon told him he was convinced Hiddleston could carry the whole thing. This puts a different spin on things.
I believe he said he has his doubts in the Avengers commentary too, but he was very happy to say he was proven wrong. So at some point Joss didn't think Loki was enough, just questioning what that other villain could have been as that may have implications for A2.

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Old 12-20-2012, 11:08 AM   #459
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

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Curmudgeon, much?
Cause I have a different opinion regarding kid loki? lol come on now, you must be kidding, it's literally all personal opinion lol.

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What I've seen of him I liked ericadawn16. Hate LadyLoki though.. and typical comics Loki Loki is the pits in my opinion, much prefer MCU Loki. There. Now I'm being a curmudgeon.

haha eat it elizah :P
In all seriousness though, I wasn't really a big fan of kid Loki. Though I did someone like him though when he was trying to convince everyone that thor was the god of thunder, and not tanarus.


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Marvel Freshman reported on CBM this morning a quote from Tom about if his character will return in A2, and it sounds doubtful.



I'm actually fine with this, because I don't want one of his contracted films to be wasted on some tiny part in it... and I agree the audience will get sick of it fast if they just have them fight the same villains over and over. But it would seem like they'd have to come up with a reason why Thanos hasn't gone after him, since it's very unlikely he'll be a part of Thor 2 at all. Maybe Loki manages to hide from Thanos for a while, or maybe Thanos is not as concerned about him as we first thought (it was The Other that made that threat, not Thanos, after all)
Yeah, I figured Loki wouldn't be reappearing. And ya never know, maybe more regarding the Thanos/Loki thing will be covered in Thor 2. I'm sure at minimum, we will learn a bit more of Loki's travels.
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However do note this is a clear indication that his character is at least still alive at the end of Thor 2, wouldn't you say?
As expected :P there is no way he was not going to survive through thor 2. Too important of a character


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And another article this morning of interest on Avengers/A2
http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Aveng...ain-34698.html

Quote:
Hmmm.... who could have been teamed up with Loki in that story to be a strong physical challenge to the Avengers, who also could be used in future Avengers films?
Honestly, I would say Thanos, but given all the ant-man talk, and wanting Janet, and ultimately hank, and the fact that we KNOW Thanos is in the MCU, I would say that muscle (which also points to Roger Wardell's speculation) that the other villain he could have been

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:


I would cry of excitement, and I expect to see him at some point in the MCU.

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Old 12-20-2012, 11:17 AM   #460
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Cause I have a different opinion regarding kid loki? lol come on now, you must be kidding, it's literally all personal opinion lol.
Just teasin' I really don't care, if you like him or not. Happy?

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Yeah, I figured Loki wouldn't be reappearing. And ya never know, maybe more regarding the Thanos/Loki thing will be covered in Thor 2. I'm sure at minimum, we will learn a bit more of Loki's travels.

As expected :P there is no way he was not going to survive through thor 2. Too important of a character
I agree, I dont have any question that he'll survive Thor 2, but it was rumored at one point that he'd die then, so just putting that evidence out there that, that is not the case.

Quote:
And another article this morning of interest on Avengers/A2
http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Aveng...ain-34698.html

Honestly, I would say Thanos, but given all the ant-man talk, and wanting Janet, and ultimately hank, and the fact that we KNOW Thanos is in the MCU, I would say that muscle (which also points to Roger Wardell's speculation) that the other villain he could have been

I would cry of excitement, and I expect to see him at some point in the MCU.
I Don't know who that is??!?

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Old 12-20-2012, 11:26 AM   #461
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Just teasin' I really don't care, if you like him or not. Happy?
haha yup


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I agree, I dont have any question that he'll survive Thor 2, but it was rumored at one point that he'd die then, so just putting that evidence out there that, that is not the case.
lol well whoever came up with that rumor is a baffoon, there is no reason for him to die yet, his character arc isn't complete.



I Don't know who that is??!?
Ultron. Read up a bit on him. Personally he's my favorite avengers villain, he's a robot bent on destroying humanity, cause he thinks it is flawed. Hank pym, antman, created him. Wasp is married to antman, and Ultron and Hank Pym have a serious deep relationship. Very deep in my opinion. I would LOVE for that to be on screen. Ultron is more than just a robot with an undying ai, his relationship and *daddy issues* with hank pym, it's so great and he is an awesome awesome villain, who simply HAS to appear at some point. Roger wardell's speculation thinks that avengers 2 will feature a masters of evil, with ultron. Interesting route, especially if thanos is going to work his way into that. As I think Thanos will be around through phase 3. This of course if roger is correct. All speculation now, but I think the villain he was tlaking about may have been ultron

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Old 12-20-2012, 11:41 AM   #462
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Ultron. Read up a bit on him. Personally he's my favorite avengers villain, he's a robot bent on destroying humanity, cause he thinks it is flawed. Hank pym, antman, created him. Wasp is married to antman, and Ultron and Hank Pym have a serious deep relationship. Very deep in my opinion. I would LOVE for that to be on screen. Ultron is more than just a robot with an undying ai, his relationship and *daddy issues* with hank pym, it's so great and he is an awesome awesome villain, who simply HAS to appear at some point. Roger wardell's speculation thinks that avengers 2 will feature a masters of evil, with ultron. Interesting route, especially if thanos is going to work his way into that. As I think Thanos will be around through phase 3. This of course if roger is correct. All speculation now, but I think the villain he was tlaking about may have been ultron
Oh okay. I have read a bit about him yes. I think they have to establish Pym and Antman first, so it seems like he'd not appear until the Ant Man movie at the earliest, since those two characters are as connected as Thor and Loki.

edit: come to think of it, couldn't that character's building be linked to using pieces of the Destroyer? Hm...

On the masters of evil, this a group of villains that varies over the years yes? Would they perhaps take some of the villains that are out there already, that are still alive to use to make a new Masters of Evil? Like maybe some that haven't been used to full capacity yet. Like Sam Stearns/Leader was created in the Hulk, and Arnim Zola could come into it too, as his other incarnation, there may be others, I'm drawing a blank on.... Red Skull could still come back I think too if he was transported to another realm... that would be good thing to do because, the characters are already established, so not as much time needed to establish them in Avengers. Arnim and Sam Stearns though... that's kind of reminding me of the Trio on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. LOL It seems like they've been introduced though, so they should use them at some point. Been a while since I've watched the Hulk but did Abomination survive as well? What villains have survived from the Iron Man franchise? That would be BIG and very personal to use some of these guys against the Avengers but all together this time.

That would probably mean, however, if they are not using Loki in A2, then they'd likely introduce a villain in Thor 2 for that (Enchantress or Karnilla maybe to bring in a female villain, OR Jane if still possessed by some spirit or force) Although that villain won't necessarily be a big threat in Thor 2 but would possibly seek revenge on Thor in Avengers2 (sort of taking at least one villain from each franchise to be a part of it, in this way, so probably someone already established from Iron Man as well...)


Last edited by elizah72; 12-20-2012 at 02:54 PM. Reason: adding a few thoughts at the end
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:22 PM   #463
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Okay, just reminded myself, that's right Blonsky/Abomination is referred to in the Marvel One-Shot The Consultant where he is apparently in prison and the World Council wants him released to join the Avengers initiative. (good idea WC! )... So, if I were a betting woman, I would put my money on Blonsky/Abomination being the one who Joss was considering for that role in Avengers, and may use later. Why?

1) He's been established as a cool and tough villain, so no need to spend a lot of time establishing that in a film where they have to cover so much with the heroes coming together etc...
2) He's likely to be out for revenge against Shield and The Hulk
3) As Blonsky he could have easily fit into the role that Hawkeye played while under Loki's control (but willingly). Hawkeye's role was turned into that last minute when Joss realized that he didn't have anything for Hawkeye to do. So basically Joss removed Blonsky entirely and put Hawkeye in for the right hand man stuff.
4) certainly the potential to create some spectacular physical fights with our heros is there, both as Abomination and as Blonsky.
5) Fairly easy access to get him into the story. Loki knows about him through his connection to Selvig and watching him work with Shield and so then breaks Blonsky out of Shield prison on the condition he help him with his goal. no need to do a complicated creation back story since that's already there.
6)He hasn't been seen since the Hulk in 2008 but they purposely reminded us about him in this One Shot with the Thor dvd.... that was likely put in on purpose in case he was used.

I think Ultron sounds cool but I think he would have needed a hell of a lot of explaining and backstory that there wouldn't have been time for. Also he may not have worked so well as a "soldier" for Loki, while Blonsky would have fit into that role very well.

Masters of Evil or something else, I do think it's likely they could come up with a band of bad guys, out of the ones that have been established for the most part, to battle the Avengers in future.

In regards to another element that is established and could lead to a villain for Thor in A2 or 3 or future Thor, what about the Thor DNA that Tony now has access to? (thanks to Loki). Apparently there is already a character that fits into that sort of storyline called Ragnarok
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnarok_(comics)


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Old 12-20-2012, 01:52 PM   #464
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Hmmm, I guess this means I'm going to have to watch The Incredible Hulk after all. . . .

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Old 12-20-2012, 02:02 PM   #465
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Hmmm, I guess this means I'm going to have to watch The Incredible Hulk after all. . . .
HA! Yeah... I thought it was okay... definitely not as bad as that first one with Bana, that was just... horrible. I did like Blonsky as a bad guy, fought the Hulk one on one as a human, now that's a freakin' badass! (or a dumbass, or both. lol) Even BW looked like she may have wet herself after she narrowly escaped the Hulk.


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Old 12-20-2012, 05:30 PM   #466
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Oh okay. I have read a bit about him yes. I think they have to establish Pym and Antman first, so it seems like he'd not appear until the Ant Man movie at the earliest, since those two characters are as connected as Thor and Loki.

edit: come to think of it, couldn't that character's building be linked to using pieces of the Destroyer? Hm...

On the masters of evil, this a group of villains that varies over the years yes? Would they perhaps take some of the villains that are out there already, that are still alive to use to make a new Masters of Evil? Like maybe some that haven't been used to full capacity yet. Like Sam Stearns/Leader was created in the Hulk, and Arnim Zola could come into it too, as his other incarnation, there may be others, I'm drawing a blank on.... Red Skull could still come back I think too if he was transported to another realm... that would be good thing to do because, the characters are already established, so not as much time needed to establish them in Avengers. Arnim and Sam Stearns though... that's kind of reminding me of the Trio on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. LOL It seems like they've been introduced though, so they should use them at some point. Been a while since I've watched the Hulk but did Abomination survive as well? What villains have survived from the Iron Man franchise? That would be BIG and very personal to use some of these guys against the Avengers but all together this time.

That would probably mean, however, if they are not using Loki in A2, then they'd likely introduce a villain in Thor 2 for that (Enchantress or Karnilla maybe to bring in a female villain, OR Jane if still possessed by some spirit or force) Although that villain won't necessarily be a big threat in Thor 2 but would possibly seek revenge on Thor in Avengers2 (sort of taking at least one villain from each franchise to be a part of it, in this way, so probably someone already established from Iron Man as well...)

ok, I only got to skim over this, cause i am in a hurry. Heres the deal, I agree that ultron cant be introduced till after pym. IF the masters of evil are in avengers 2, it will most likely be villains that have been introduced, especially if zemo shows up in cap 2. Who knows, but with janet almost appearing in avengers 1, and the rumors that ant man or pym shows up after the credits of ironman 3, if those are true, it could introduce pym in avengers 2, and an ultron/masters of evil story. (ultron has lead the masters before) but who knows, far to early to tell. I would love to get a my hands on that draft joss turned in :P

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Old 12-20-2012, 05:50 PM   #467
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ok, I only got to skim over this, cause i am in a hurry. Heres the deal, I agree that ultron cant be introduced till after pym. IF the masters of evil are in avengers 2, it will most likely be villains that have been introduced, especially if zemo shows up in cap 2. Who knows, but with janet almost appearing in avengers 1, and the rumors that ant man or pym shows up after the credits of ironman 3, if those are true, it could introduce pym in avengers 2, and an ultron/masters of evil story. (ultron has lead the masters before) but who knows, far to early to tell. I would love to get a my hands on that draft joss turned in :P
Okay well we have both A2 and Antman movie expected for 2015, but we don't know which comes first yet, do we? Seems like the Ultron thing should be done in the Antman movie, then maybe used in a future Avengers, but if A2 comes before Ant man then, seems like Ultron would be unlikely, if it comes after Antman then maybe. But I do think they have have plenty of still living villains they can use that are already established without Ultron. I think that's one problem/tricky part with this group hero movie, there's really no time to do a lot of establishing of characters, and spending time creating origin stories for baddies during the Avengers films would take away from the Avengers themselves as well as possibly slowdown the action and story.

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Old 12-20-2012, 08:04 PM   #468
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Okay well we have both A2 and Antman movie expected for 2015, but we don't know which comes first yet, do we? Seems like the Ultron thing should be done in the Antman movie, then maybe used in a future Avengers, but if A2 comes before Ant man then, seems like Ultron would be unlikely, if it comes after Antman then maybe. But I do think they have have plenty of still living villains they can use that are already established without Ultron. I think that's one problem/tricky part with this group hero movie, there's really no time to do a lot of establishing of characters, and spending time creating origin stories for baddies during the Avengers films would take away from the Avengers themselves as well as possibly slowdown the action and story.
It most certianly would. again, too early to tell. But the whole abomination thing, IF some sort of team comes up for avengers 2 (which is what I think will happen) he can very well be a part of that masters of evil.

I think right now that thanos will be in avengers 2, he will have a role, doing his own thing. But we will have a MCU version of the Masters of Evil, if you will. Which will feature the manderin, abomination, zemo (he seems the obvious choice for cap 2), crossbones (who was said to appear in avengers 2, then it got denied..hmm) and possibly kurse, or what other villains we will meet in phase 2.

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Old 12-20-2012, 08:24 PM   #469
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again we also have Stearns/Leader and Arnim Zola already existing in the MCU but not really used yet to full effect so I would think one or both could very well be part of that group. Why introduce them otherwise?

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Old 12-20-2012, 08:54 PM   #470
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again we also have Stearns/Leader and Arnim Zola already existing in the MCU but not really used yet to full effect so I would think one or both could very well be part of that group. Why introduce them otherwise?
the issue then would be finding a reason for them to all band together, without making it seem like a saturday morning cartoon.

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Old 12-20-2012, 08:57 PM   #471
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

To be honest, I'm only excited about Antman and Ultron because of Janet, Wanda and the Vision...

To go back to Loki and Thor 2, Tom Hiddleston has mentioned repeatedly how before he's finished with Loki, he would like more of a redemption arc. I think this could be interesting especially since this was even addressed in finale of Kid Loki in Journey into Mystery. For cinematic purposes, it would probably be more epic to have his redemption tied into Ragnarok though.

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Old 12-21-2012, 12:32 AM   #472
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ok, I only got to skim over this, cause i am in a hurry. Heres the deal, I agree that ultron cant be introduced till after pym. IF the masters of evil are in avengers 2, it will most likely be villains that have been introduced, especially if zemo shows up in cap 2. Who knows, but with janet almost appearing in avengers 1, and the rumors that ant man or pym shows up after the credits of ironman 3, if those are true, it could introduce pym in avengers 2, and an ultron/masters of evil story. (ultron has lead the masters before) but who knows, far to early to tell. I would love to get a my hands on that draft joss turned in :P
What if we see Ultron in various forms across movies? Starting with Iron Man 3...

We've heard a few times that the Ant Man movie would take place in the past... Some sources say in the past and the present with Pym and Lang.

Those "rumors" about Szostak being Wasp, Whedon mentioning his very "Waspy" draft of Avengers, and talking about the inclusion of a second villain other than Loki/Thanos/the other... this all leads to a couple things. The second villain he was talking about was Ultron. This villain may crop up in a number of future films, in as many different forms/identities as Pym himself...

This is something I've been covering in the IM3 thread, but suppose for a second that AIM has actually developed their own AI which operates similar to Jarvis, although not as friendly. They stole tech from everywhere including Stark industries.. This AI has mainly been developed by past research done by Pym. Mandarin uses it to control certain things because he controls AIM, although it has a mind of its own and simply wants Mandarin to succeed. AIM is developing it as a military defense network they try to sell the world codenamed U.L.T.R.O.N.

Just like Shield. It means something to Advanced Idea Mechanics. Ultron's name in the MCU is an acronym. Also a way to advertise it to China/America's military & airforce as the ultimate name in protection. Tetterington would make fun of this after becoming M.O.D.O.K. in CAP 2 mid-credits, where AIM is revealed to be Hydra and connected to Zemo. Pym gives it a similar name in his movie, when it had a body. Pym and Jan still name Vision together when he's created...

They claim it can be used to protect against attacks from space ala the idea of the Star Wars program. The military adopts this because of the recent attack from space... The politics of it come into play in IM3. In a way Ultron is a villain in IM3, Stark/Jarvis fight it, and have a hand in making it take the form it does it Avengers 2... Wardell has it wrong... Ultron isn't leading/controlling the masters in Avengers 2. In Avengers 2 he uses the form of the evil Vision (before he turns good).

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Whedon has said they only intend to add two characters to the Avengers 2 team. I'm positive at this point that Hank and Janet will both be in Avengers 2. How we get to that point is probably part of the fun in how Phase 2 connects. But what if I was to tell you that Wasp will be a bigger character than Pym in these movies, at least initially, as per Whedon's original plan for Avengers? What if the one thing I'm 100% sure about is that Wasp will already be part of the team by the time Avengers 2 comes about, Hank I'm not so sure about. Ant Man could very well take place after Avengers 2. How would have Wasp fit into Whedon's original script for the Avengers without Pym? There had to have been a plan back then to address the absence of Pym... The fact that the Ant Man movie was being planned to take place in the past ties into that...


Whether or not Ant Man takes place before or after Avengers 2 we have a problem if it occurs in the past. Szostak as Wasp in IM3 gives them more than enough time to introduce us to where Pym has gone and set up a reintroduction into the present, which may tie into GoTG in some ways. If Ant man is released before, then it's still kind of weird to have Lang and Jan, but Whedon has expressed his interest in Jan. Chronologically Ant Man takes place before IM3 & Avengers 2. Ant Man's an origin movie for Pym, Janet and Ultron but we're introduced to Janet and a little bit about what happened in the past long before this.The bodyless Ultron, which became AIM's AI network, has returned with the Vision when he's brought into Avengers 2. The Ultron network is reactivated to try to protect Earth from Thanos. Tony and Jarvis think they have it in control--they think they can control the enslaved supervillains with the combination of this network and the remnants of Mandarin's Extremis soldier program... Turning the villains into allies ala civil war... That's the thing--the first time we meet the Masters they've all been assembled in the BigHouse. Which brings Sterns together with most of the masters. Sterns is the important one, the key to the Asgardian DNA thread, what Wardell's talking about with Tony having Thor's DNA. He has it on the dagger left at Stark tower. That sample will become Sterns' during Avengers 2. As a biologist he's much more interested in the sample/Thor's genetics than Stark is. In my other posts I've outlined how some of the Masters of evil willingly work with the Avengers against Thanos. Sterns wants out of captivity but has become a monster. After the prison break he's the only one left in prison and the heroes decide to free him because he says he can help...

Sterns is interested in making Hulklings in the comics, possibly clones of Thor (ala civil war) or "Thorlings" in the MCU... Once he returns as Leader. The "Leader" of the Masters of Evil (I don't agree with Wardell that Ultron is "leading" them). Leader also claims he's been wrongfully imprisoned, mistreated by Shield (Black Widow shot him) but he secretly wants the world, something Widow knows. He doesn't want to help them track down the escaped villains (this would all be the first half of the movie). It might be more interesting for Hulk to face off against someone he thought was an ally. Someone that he hasn't faced before. Someone who's incredibly intelligent, has a connection to Banner through science, and specializes in biology. Always the possibility they use both since both are imprisoned. Each would be transferred to the Big House supervillain prison that Mandarin, Darcy/Hela and Zemo end up in... (Hela's look in Hel is the sexy topography created by the artist in those tweets imo). Sterns is more important because we haven't seen his final form (this means looks/actor can change, a fill in on his back-story is all that's needed). IMO Enchantress won't be there as part of the MCU masters and Hela will... I really think Darcy becomes the human embodiment of Hela and begins to look more and more like her counterpart in Hel, briefly seen in this movie. Darcy eventually gaining telekinetic powers and other abilities. Although afterwards she's left half-crazed and a danger to humanity while Jane escaped the possession before it gained too much power.

At that point Malekith has been killed and ragnarok delayed, but Hela is still deep below the surface of the world tree and working through Darcy... They keep her in a separate cell from all the rest, a special cell--although this doesn't stop the prison break and stop her from returning the other members to normal size... Hela/Darcy is still gaining power however a spell cast by Odin has left her trapped in the lower realms and the roots of the world tree for all eternity. She still has control over her domain and a limited range of motion, unlike Surtur. She's working with Malekith/the dark elves to free Surtur and herself because as a character who deals in death, she has a certain timeless nature to her. Surtur is the threat from before the dawn of time and her and the dark elves are the only ones who can free him. Her and Malekith have a history of trying to start Ragnarok before that resulted in her being trapped in hel. Malekith is half-dead, or should be dead.. Kurse goes through a different death and rebirth.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Each one of the Masters has been imprisoned by the time Avengers 2 begins and Jan/Pym's research has helped Shield start imprisoning the captured villains in more effective ways. Stark saw using the nano-technology and a wider AI network than his as the only way to track them down and imprison them again. Instead he enslaves them as Thanos attacks... This doesn't sit well with Captain America ala civil war. Ultron is reborn and vision is created, Ultron takes control of the imprisoned nano-infused masters and interferes with Shield's plans to use technology against Thanos. Feige has mentioned Avengers 2 may contain some civil war elements... The remains of the Ultron network AIM had is used as a weapon against Thanos. Stark didn't know exactly what Ultron was when he first encountered it--he thought Mandarin was using it and not the other way around. That it was only AI being used as a tool. Jarvis has already saved his ass against this thing once, but they didn't know this thing has even more personality than Jarvis. Jan quickly realizes this thing is a threat, but before they can undo their mistake Ultron is reactivated and creates the evil Vision out of one of Stark's suits. Jarvis has built up a resistance to this AI in IM3 and is able to help turn the Vision good by the end. Unlike Ultron and the captured Masters, the Vision does help them successfully defeat Thanos. However, all the masters have now met in the bighouse and are now scattered, on the loose again after Thanos's attack. The MoE will return, and part of Avengers 2 is how they meet in the MCU, without them necessarily being villains in the movie, or even appearing past the halfway point.

The Ant Man movie may still take place in the past if Wright's script hasn't changed all that much. And if they intend to use Wasp in the present, as Whedon did in his first script to Avengers, then they had some explaining to do. They'd still have explaining to do if this is still the case, but that may be why it's so important that Wasp be introduced to us very quickly, and almost added to the team by the end of IM3.
Feige said IM3 will feature none of the Avengers but Jan isn't an Avenger yet. He also said two will be added in Avengers 2 and the lineup may change. Hawkeye is gone... BW maybe out... Jan becomes a member inbetween movies.... and the two new members Feige/Whedon were talking about are actually Pym and Vision...


Edit:Whoops just realized i already covered Ultron in this thread in my last post. Both this movie and IM3 have me too excited. Stark may meet Ultron in IM3 (Jan would be there soon) and I really suspect an altered Hela has been worked in to be part of the MoE instead of Enchantress. The Darcy pessessed Hela would disappear after freeing the masters from captivity and we have no clue where she went until Thor 3. When the masters return they have a slightly different lineup, so crossbones never becomes a full time member and their escape and role in Avengers 2 is like a proto-MoE.


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Old 12-21-2012, 09:08 AM   #473
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

LokiDionysos said:

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Sterns is the important one, the key to the Asgardian DNA thread, what Wardell's talking about with Tony having Thor's DNA. He has it on the dagger left at Stark tower. That sample will become Sterns' during Avengers 2. As a biologist he's much more interested in the sample/Thor's genetics than Stark is. . . .Sterns is interested in making Hulklings in the comics, possibly clones of Thor (ala civil war) or "Thorlings" in the MCU
I don't know why people spend so much time jumping up and down about the discarded dagger with Thor's blood on it. People shed hair all the time, and long hair is particularly prominent wherever it falls. So there are long blond hairs all over the helicarrier, especially after Thor's rumble with Hulk. Sterns has a sample? So what? Fury has enough to make a wig. Then everyone can have their own Thor clone!

I think they have a lot of ground to cover (besides sequencing Thor's DNA) before they can do the Civil War story line.

And I had to giggle, because "Thorling" sounds like a pet name.

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Old 12-21-2012, 11:14 AM   #474
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

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the issue then would be finding a reason for them to all band together, without making it seem like a saturday morning cartoon.
Absolutely. Agreed. Another issue is what is needed. How many "brains" do they really need? How many alpha male "leaders"? Probably only 1 on both those counts so that may make it seem that Leader and Arnim probably not both at the same time and that may make certain more "alpha" villains less likely to appear together. They have to be (convincingly) willing to work with each other, after all. Then how many of "the muscle", "power players", and "soldiers"? Those they will probably need several of to make significant fights. So start there when building your MCU Masters of Evil, at the same time take into consideration if they've already been established, how recently, and how much have they already been used. And I think too, at least one from each franchise makes sense, so each villain has a vendetta against a certain hero, or each hero has a past with at least one of the villains.

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To go back to Loki and Thor 2, Tom Hiddleston has mentioned repeatedly how before he's finished with Loki, he would like more of a redemption arc. I think this could be interesting especially since this was even addressed in finale of Kid Loki in Journey into Mystery. For cinematic purposes, it would probably be more epic to have his redemption tied into Ragnarok though.
It would but I dont think if he does become a sort of antihero and teams with Thor in Thor 2, and comes to some understanding with his family about that, that means he's been redeemed. that was sort of a point in his speech to BW in Avengers, it's always with you, the horrors, and saving a man or woman no more virtuous than you will erase that or wipe that ledger clean. And that's what's interests me most about any redemption storyline, a character struggling with what they've done and not just saying, okay well I redeemed myself now and forgetting that guilt completely. it's something that must be somehow lived with, not wiped clean. And I hate the idea of him having to die in Ragnarok to be "redeemed", I dont want to see that, it's incredibly cliche (for one it's already been done once by his brother in the franchise). For another I'd rather he continue on, and be in as many Thor movies as there are, and maybe a Loki movie of his own.

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Originally Posted by LokiDionysos View Post
.Sterns wants out of captivity but has become a monster. After the prison break he's the only one left in prison and the heroes decide to free him because he says he can help...

Sterns is interested in making Hulklings in the comics, possibly clones of Thor (ala civil war) or "Thorlings" in the MCU...
now that's an interesting idea, have Stern act like he's a good guy and then betray Bruce and the Avengers. this is very plausible and lots of conflict and drama out of that. Good idea.

and it could certainly make sense for him to get a hold of Thor's blood sample maybe, and make the clone of Thor as some of the "muscle" for the MOE. I do think that blood sample is a purposely established thing that most definitely could be used in future films. So he could act like a friend, all the while planning, and work with Bruce with Thor's sample maybe for other reasons such as the healing qualities, maybe as a possible cure for them both, and then he takes the sample and does something else with it. Totally could work and be interesting on film.

Quote:
Once he returns as Leader. The "Leader" of the Masters of Evil (I don't agree with Wardell that Ultron is "leading" them). Leader also claims he's been wrongfully imprisoned, mistreated by Shield (Black Widow shot him) but he secretly wants the world, something Widow knows. He doesn't want to help them track down the escaped villains (this would all be the first half of the movie).
And we dont know yet what happens to BW in Cap 2 (which I think she is in) so she could actually wind up working with the masters as well by then, couldnt' she? That would give Hawkeye an emotional investment in it.

Quote:
It might be more interesting for Hulk to face off against someone he thought was an ally. Someone that he hasn't faced before. Someone who's incredibly intelligent, has a connection to Banner through science, and specializes in biology. Always the possibility they use both since both are imprisoned.
Agreed. Again, this part of it is very plausible and would be interesting.

Quote:
Each would be transferred to the Big House supervillain prison that Mandarin, Darcy/Hela and Zemo end up in... (Hela's look in Hel is the sexy topography created by the artist in those tweets imo). Sterns is more important because we haven't seen his final form (this means looks/actor can change, a fill in on his back-story is all that's needed). IMO Enchantress won't be there as part of the MCU masters and Hela will... I really think Darcy becomes the human embodiment of Hela and begins to look more and more like her counterpart in Hel, briefly seen in this movie. Darcy eventually gaining telekinetic powers and other abilities. Although afterwards she's left half-crazed and a danger to humanity while Jane escaped the possession before it gained too much power.
Oh, Lord I hope not. For one I really really dont think that actress can pull that off. Could be wrong but I think she would be waayy too jokey/corny and not at all scary/creepy/a real threat. I think Natalie could pull off scary/creepy much better. I think the fanboys just want Darcy to be that because she's got really big boobs. Plus I think it's much more emotionally at stake for Thor if it's Jane actually that is taken over by Hela or Death or the Tesseract or whatever and is then a villain in A2, than if it were Darcy. he likes Darcy but it's not anywhere near the emotional impact for him. (Sorry AM, like I've said, these stories and relationships need conflict or they just get much too boring and uninteresting! ) Also, Darcy was put in there as a "common person"/moviegoer's opinion character, partially to help keep that world grounded, which I believe they want to continue to do. They lose that if they make Darcy Hela.

and I can't see Shield keeping the goddess of Hel in a cell on their own. if anyone imprisons her it would have to be Odin himself. The whole idea of a supervillain prison is very cheesy saturday morning cartoons to me, in any case. So really not crazy about that idea either. I can see one character reaching out to various villains imprisoned or on the loose in various places and bringing them together based on their in common hatred of various members of the Avengers, and becoming the leader that way.

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Old 12-21-2012, 12:06 PM   #475
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

ericadawn16 said:
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For cinematic purposes, it would probably be more epic to have [Loki's] redemption tied into Ragnarok though.
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Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
It would but I dont think if he does become a sort of antihero and teams with Thor in Thor 2, and comes to some understanding with his family about that, that means he's been redeemed.
Not (necessarily) in the eyes of the Midgardians.

Also, I don't think you are contradicting this, but I'd like to maintain that part of his redemption must include his taking responsibility for his actions. That leads into your next comment:


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Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
that was sort of a point in his speech to BW in Avengers, it's always with you, the horrors, and saving a man or woman no more virtuous than you will erase that or wipe that ledger clean. And that's what's interests me most about any redemption storyline, a character struggling with what they've done and not just saying, okay well I redeemed myself now and forgetting that guilt completely. it's something that must be somehow lived with, not wiped clean.
Yes, yes, yes!! I'd like to see it weigh on him. Then he's really growing up.


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Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
And I hate the idea of him having to die in Ragnarok to be "redeemed", I dont want to see that, it's incredibly cliche (for one it's already been done once by his brother in the franchise).
To be flippant for a moment (only a moment? ), one doesn't seem to be truly Asgardian unless one perishes in a Ragnarok or two. . .

You know I'm with you on cliches. And they've done Ragnarok or its equivalent so many times in the books as to rob it of all its import. Feh.


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For another I'd rather he continue on, and be in as many Thor movies as there are, and maybe a Loki movie of his own.
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and it could certainly make sense for him to get a hold of Thor's blood sample maybe, and make the clone of Thor as some of the "muscle" for the MOE.
That's not the role the Thor clone played in the Civil War story arc. But since I said they would have to cover a lot of ground to get set up to do Civil War, maybe it fits into the MCU better to have a Thor clone show up as muscle for the MoE's (and they still need a better team name )



Quote:
Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
I do think that blood sample is a purposely established thing that most definitely could be used in future films. So he could act like a friend, all the while planning, and work with Bruce with Thor's sample maybe for other reasons such as the healing qualities, maybe as a possible cure for them both, and then he takes the sample and does something else with it. Totally could work and be interesting on film.
If they do that, then Bruce also will have conducted himself unethically (as he should very well know), since the research would have been conducted without Thor's informed consent.

<Darcy as Hela>


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Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
Oh, Lord I hope not. For one I really really dont think that actress can pull that off. Could be wrong but I think she would be waayy too jokey/corny and not at all scary/creepy/a real threat.
I'm willing to give all actors (including Kat Dennings) the benefit of the doubt.

I do agree that Portman could pull it off (and will pull of something similar, with the malevolent spirit).


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Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
I think the fanboys just want Darcy to be that because she's got really big boobs.
Hey: boobies are a powerful force in the universe.

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Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
Also, Darcy was put in there as a "common person"/moviegoer's opinion character, partially to help keep that world grounded, which I believe they want to continue to do. They lose that if they make Darcy Hela.
I agree with this, and it's one of the main reasons I doubt they will do this. The other is that it seems too far fetched. It's funny to say for a film filled with magic and wormholes that are not unstable and species such as dark elves, but there's a part of me that feels like that it's too much of a stretch. Besides, Hela existed at least 900 years before Darcy was born.


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Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
Plus I think it's much more emotionally at stake for Thor if it's Jane actually that is taken over by Hela or Death or the Tesseract or whatever and is then a villain in A2, than if it were Darcy. he likes Darcy but it's not anywhere near the emotional impact for him. (Sorry AM, like I've said, these stories and relationships need conflict or they just get much too boring and uninteresting! )
Several responses:
1. I believe LokiDionysos is suggesting that the malevolent spirit first takes over Jane then jumps to Darcy. Since the suggestion next is that Darcy becomes Hela, this implies that the malevolent spirit is, in fact, Hela. So in that scenario, Jane *is* taken over by Hela, but throws her off (go Jane!)
2. I agree, it's more emotionally fraught for Thor for Jane to be possessed than for Darcy (or for Erik in TA, for that matter).
3. If she remains a villain in TA2, we may find that Thor's ardor may cool a bit. (Then again, he married the Enchantress. So maybe this will actually heat things up for him )
4. To turn your logic on its head, if she gets possessed early on and stays villainous (or at least malevolent), that too is static and therefore boring and uninteresting. So that implies that she can't stay that way
5. All fun thought experiments. I still think that's not what becomes of Jane in this film

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Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
I can see one [villainous] character reaching out to various villains imprisoned or on the loose in various places and bringing them together based on their in common hatred of various members of the Avengers, and becoming the leader that way.
People described the first half of the plot of "The Avengers" as "getting the band together". SO it would seem a lot of TA2 is also "getting the band together", it's just the other band they are talking about.

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