Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

[elizah72]

Okay, here's a little detail I just noticed, could be nothing, but several of those warriors have a circle design on their armor, I've seen it on a number of them, including the guys on the previous page riding horses that I posted pictures of. This is the ceiling to the Chapel at Greenwich which supposedly has also been used some for filming...



out of curiosity, does anyone recognize the symbol on the column from the Bourne Woods scenes from anything? Is seems to be different from the above circle images. Also, note there are 3 stone columns, and 3 Norns in Nornheim.




Just going back to the possibility of Vanaheim, NornHeim and Asgard all being involved in a Game of Thrones style war at the top of the film (partially involving the Bourne Woods scene). I just wanted to bring up again a point I made and some information to tie in with all of that. This is from when we were talking about this in the Kurse thread...

That's one scenario. However I think the word Marauder is being thrown around as a general term here, probably started by extras who weren't really told much about what they were fighting about or who they were and making general assumptions, and now everyone is running with it. That includes the one guy listed on IMDB (which is not always 100 percent accurate) adding: (They could also be sworn to secrecy due to saying what the character/groups name is more specifically would give too much away )

also I've seen referenced a notice from Shepperton studios when filming in Bourne, saying it would be about 300 extras and a "battle between two kingdoms ensuing before the God of Thunder himself, Thor arrives and saves the day.”

and that would again, point to "kingdoms" which I really dont think a random group of marauders hired by Thanos could possibly be considered a "kingdom". However Nornheim, Vanaheim, and even Niflheim could all certainly be considered kingdoms. And the fact that Thor has to come in with his Asgardian buddies to try to break up this fight between two kingdoms, would pretty clearly indicate that it is likely Nornheim vs Vanaheim or vs Niflheim and not Asgard vs anybody to start with (just to finish it). of course the studio notice might be misleading but I would tend to assume it's correct and take the clues from that.

also found on another site, it says someone got offered the part of a leader of a "marauder army" due to his ginger beard. now again, the word marauder being thrown around as a general term more than likely. and I would question why would he have to have a ginger beard, unless, he is meant to look like either Vanir or possibly Asgardian? Certainly wouldnt need that for a random marauder....

And the only guy who is listed on IMDB as a "Marauder" is this guy...
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm4788909/

has a bit of that old viking look to him, doesnt he? And again, a just random marauder army would not need a guy to lead them who specifically has a "ginger" beard, but they may want that for someone leading the Vanir army.

and here is a picture I've found that I haven't seen yet. Note the guy on the white horse, because I have a feeling you'll notice him in the film, due to the fact that everyone else seems to be riding brown and black horses.





here he is again with his helmet off and it appears he may have that same circle symbol again on his chest.
note: Freyr, with his sister Freya, were originally Vanir in the myths and Freyr has a horse named Blodighofi - per one myth website: ("The one with blood on the hoofs") The horse wasn't afraid of either fire or smoke.

more info on Freyr, who according to wiki here anyway, has that ship Skidbladnir (not Odin apparently), and he has a magic sword which ' fights on its own "if wise be he who wields it".' note the large sword in his hand there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freyr

He also dies during Ragnarok by Surtur per this article.

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by Rock Sexton

I seriously doubt Feige will take the MCU in the time travel route. It represents too many inconsistencies/difficulty in story-telling ..... and as we've seen by all the movies thus far they try to keep things simplistic.

Exactly. Earlier on that guy was going WAY to deep. HUGE posts that were simply too long for us to read

[Rock Sexton]

Originally Posted by jaqua99

Exactly. Earlier on that guy was going WAY to deep. HUGE posts that were simply too long for us to read

I think imaginations are starting to kick into over-drive, too much over-analysis.

[elizah72]

I know I'm probably confusing everybody with this all, but let me sum up what my current thinking is about the Bourne Woods stuff.

I think it is Nornheim being attacked by the Vanir. They and the Asgardians are having a Game of Thrones style melee with the Vanir sick of the Asgardians being in charge and looking to take over power of the 9 realms now that they see that the bridge is gone and Odin is weakening. Freyr (guy on white horse) is king of Vanaheim, or he is sent by his father Njord who is king to oversee this battle. it may be at the same time this is going on, that Odin's palace is also attacked by the Dark Elves and probably something magical is stolen from Odin for Malekith to use later for his plans to make Earth and other realms Dark (and Frigga is killed then if that spoiler is true).

The Asgardians are pretty decimated and so Thor must go with Loki to Valhalla to get reinforcements. Odin must stay behind and both oversee fighting off the Vanir and other threats to Asgard.

The chapel at Greenwich, the first time I looked at it, made me think 'I wonder if they'll make that into an alternate throne room for a different realm'. So, those symbols on those warriors being so similar to the ceiling, make me think that will be the throne room at Vanaheim for a scene or two. Eventually, the Asgardians, Vanir, and Nornheim, are faced with the huge threat of (probably) Surtur who is also taking an opportunity to attack Asgard now (towards the end of the movie). So Vanaheim, Nornheim and Asgard must all come to a truce if they hope to stop him.

Meanwhile, Malekith invades Earth and tries to make it dark so that he and the Elves can come above ground (referring again to them turning to stone if they are exposed to sunlight, in the myths). Thor finds out about this and insists on returning on his own, and not staying back to help fight against the Vanir and so goes down and does battle against the elves Malekith and Kurse. I feel like it is likely he doesnt find out about Surtur attacking until he gets back.

[American Maid]

@Elizah: you seem to be suggesting the guy on the white horse may be Freyr, or at least one of the Vanir. I'm inclined to agree. Do you think that battle is in Nornheim or Vanaheim?

Regarding the chapel ceiling, I had assumed that would be a setting in either Svartalfheim or Alfheim.

[American Maid]

Originally Posted by elizah72

Meanwhile, Malekith invades Earth and tries to make it dark so that he and the Elves can come above ground (referring again to them turning to stone if they are exposed to sunlight, in the myths).

So Earth would be a Dark World, then.

[American Maid]

Originally Posted by Rock Sexton

I think imaginations are starting to kick into over-drive, too much over-analysis.

Well, if it's not what they actually do with the movies, then we can think of it as an alternate telling of the tale. It's a lot of stuff I had not thought about, so it is interesting.

[elizah72]

Originally Posted by American Maid

@Elizah: you seem to be suggesting the guy on the white horse may be Freyr, or at least one of the Vanir. I'm inclined to agree. Do you think that battle is in Nornheim or Vanaheim?

Regarding the chapel ceiling, I had assumed that would be a setting in either Svartalfheim or Alfheim.

Yes, I had as well, until I realized the symbols were so similar to what i saw numerous time on the battle armor for the invaders. Keep in mind, we dont seem to be getting all the information and some of the information we get may be inaccurate (either accidentally or on purpose to keep things secret). So right now I'm mainly using my eyes and these pictures and videos to try to deduce what might be happening.

And as I said above I think the Vanir are attacking Nornheim, on their way to attacking and trying to take over Asgard.

Originally Posted by American Maid

So Earth would be a Dark World, then.

Yes. I am thinking that could very well be. I was thinking it might have been referring to Hel before but now, yes I agree with that. (for the moment! lol)

[American Maid]

Originally Posted by elizah72

Yes, I had as well, until I realized the symbols were so similar to what i saw numerous time on the battle armor for the invaders. Keep in mind, we dont seem to be getting all the information and some of the information we get may be inaccurate (either accidentally or on purpose to keep things secret). So right now I'm mainly using my eyes and these pictures and videos to try to deduce what might be happening.

Now, the symbols on the ceiling and the armor are pretty universal. So any of a number of cultures can (and have) used them. So it could be dark elf, light elf, or Vanir (or, indeed, human!)

But I suspect you are right. In a movie, they probably want the symbolism to be more distinct to help the audience keep everyone sorted. I agree; likely it's a throne room of another realm, and Vanaheim makes a lot of sense.

Originally Posted by American Maid

So Earth would be a Dark World, then.

Originally Posted by elizah72

Yes. I am thinking that could very well be. I was thinking it might have been referring to Hel before but now, yes I agree with that. (for the moment! lol)

Well, the beauty of a metaphor is that it can be used more than once. There can be more than one moral sacrifice, and there can be more than one dark world!



On another subject, let me ask you this. In the main thread was the idea of two realms/dimensions coexisting in the vicinity of the meridian line. Do you think the second realm is Svartalfheim? I'm wondering if it is Alfheim. (Right now I'm on this kick where I'd like to see Alfheim worked in somehow).

Another random thought: I suppose the hints we're getting that dark elves use tech (such as space ships) suggests that they are not including in their profile the idea that they have an aversion to cold iron. (typical assumption for all Fae folk, and part of their profile on the Marvel web page).

[jaqua99]

Not gunna lie guys, I think we may be starting to over analyze things a little bit. Don't forget, this is a movie, there are budgets, and I am just not sure if there will be able to be THIS much going on and have it still work

[elizah72]

Originally Posted by American Maid

Now, the symbols on the ceiling and the armor are pretty universal. So any of a number of cultures can (and have) used them. So it could be dark elf, light elf, or Vanir (or, indeed, human!)

But I suspect you are right. In a movie, they probably want the symbolism to be more distinct to help the audience keep everyone sorted. I agree; likely it's a throne room of another realm, and Vanaheim makes a lot of sense.

Yes.

Also in regards to Freyr's horse Blodighofi. What couple pictures I've found of him have him as a white horse, it is also mentioned that he can leap through fire unharmed (which might come in handy when fighting Fire Demons and Surtur )

Well, the beauty of a metaphor is that it can be used more than once. There can be more than one moral sacrifice, and there can be more than one dark world!

Agreed. I am hoping Hela has a cameo at least.

On another subject, let me ask you this. In the main thread was the idea of two realms/dimensions coexisting in the vicinity of the meridian line. Do you think the second realm is Svartalfheim? I'm wondering if it is Alfheim. (Right now I'm on this kick where I'd like to see Alfheim worked in somehow).

Another random thought: I suppose the hints we're getting that dark elves use tech (such as space ships) suggests that they are not including in their profile the idea that they have an aversion to cold iron. (typical assumption for all Fae folk, and part of their profile on the Marvel web page).

Like I said, at this point I think it is a matter of the world turning dark via Malekith, so still Earth. But it certainly could be some of the sites, like the Chapel, and possibly Stonehenge with a bit of dressing up, are doubling for places in other realms. Again, we arent necessarily getting all the information from things that have been trickling out, and what we do get may not be completely accurate. So I've been using my eyes to analyze or overanalyze (however you want to see it. )

Originally Posted by jaqua99

Not gunna lie guys, I think we may be starting to over analyze things a little bit. Don't forget, this is a movie, there are budgets, and I am just not sure if there will be able to be THIS much going on and have it still work

I actually think the Vanir army attacking idea would require less of a budget then Hela's army would. It would mainly be humans so probably very little if any CGI and makeup, wheras it seems like Hela's army, or Surtur's are going to certainly require expensive CGI in some places in order to look menacing enough. It also makes sense that the Asgardians would be able to keep them at bay for a chunk of the film, whereas Hela's army, or Surtur's army, they would have a harder time keeping back, I would think.

[American Maid]

Originally Posted by elizah72

Also in regards to Freyr's horse Blodighofi. What couple pictures I've found of him have him as a white horse, it is also mentioned that he can leap through fire unharmed (which might come in handy when fighting Fire Demons and Surtur )

Indeed!

Originally Posted by elizah72

Agreed. I am hoping Hela has a cameo at least.

Well, Alice Krige is on the hook to do *something*

Originally Posted by elizah72

Like I said, at this point I think it is a matter of the world turning dark via Malekith, so still Earth.

So you don't think the idea of two dimensions at the same place (Greenwich) is going to be employed in the film?

Originally Posted by elizah72

So I've beem using my eyes to analyze or overanalyze (however you want to see it. )

<shrug> It's all in good fun.

Originally Posted by elizah72

I actually think the Vanir army attacking idea would require less of a budget then Hela's army would. It would mainly be humans so probably very little if any CGI and makeup, wheras it seems like Hela's army, or Surtur's are going to certainly require expensive CGI in some places in order to look menacing enough. It also makes sense that the Asgardians would be able to keep them at bay for a chunk of the film, whereas Hela's army, or Surtur's army, they would have a harder time keeping back, I would think.

I agree.

[elizah72]

Originally Posted by American Maid

Indeed!

and just one more note on the guy on the white horse there. I've looked over those pictures pretty thoroughly. he is the only one on a white horse, even Sif has a black horse, the others are black or brown. This is right up there with having a big red bus with "moral sacrifice" on the side. This dude IS somebody of note in the movie.

So you don't think the idea of two dimensions at the same place (Greenwich) is going to be employed in the film?

I'm leaning towards no. I think it will make it all too complicated.

[Nimloth]

guys, maybe I missed something, so no offense I'm just trying to understand, why do you think Vanir would ever attack Asgard? Shoudn't they be allies? I know they fought, but eventually merged and in comic book they already merged, aren't they?
I guess Asgard deserves at least one ally)

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by elizah72

Yes.

Also in regards to Freyr's horse Blodighofi. What couple pictures I've found of him have him as a white horse, it is also mentioned that he can leap through fire unharmed (which might come in handy when fighting Fire Demons and Surtur )



Agreed. I am hoping Hela has a cameo at least.



Like I said, at this point I think it is a matter of the world turning dark via Malekith, so still Earth. But it certainly could be some of the sites, like the Chapel, and possibly Stonehenge with a bit of dressing up, are doubling for places in other realms. Again, we arent necessarily getting all the information from things that have been trickling out, and what we do get may not be completely accurate. So I've been using my eyes to analyze or overanalyze (however you want to see it. )



I actually think the Vanir army attacking idea would require less of a budget then Hela's army would. It would mainly be humans so probably very little if any CGI and makeup, wheras it seems like Hela's army, or Surtur's are going to certainly require expensive CGI in some places in order to look menacing enough. It also makes sense that the Asgardians would be able to keep them at bay for a chunk of the film, whereas Hela's army, or Surtur's army, they would have a harder time keeping back, I would think.

I am with you. I just mean everything. We are all throwing alllll these ideas as to what will happen, and for a film, I just worry all these things would sort of be..cram packed.

yes it will be humans, but actors pay comes from the budget? Right? Wrong? I don't know. That was my main concern. The scale seems to be huge already, it just seems like all these characters may be a little cram packed for one movie. I am all for ALL of these things happening, I just...don't know how it will work in ONE movie.

I do think Hela will appear though atleast. But for characters, I think all we will see from thor's rogue gallery, outside of a few armies, are malekith, surtur, kurse, and hela

[elizah72]

Originally Posted by Nimloth

guys, maybe I missed something, so no offense I'm just trying to understand, why do you think Vanir would ever attack Asgard? Shoudn't they be allies? I know they fought, but eventually merged and in comic book they already merged, aren't they?
I guess Asgard deserves at least one ally)

we dont know what the status of that relationship is for MCU at this time. Asgard and Vanaheim fought in the past per the mythology, and then came to a truce, so my thinking is they may show something similar here with the two warring demi-god "tribes". It fits in perfectly with the Alan Taylor "Game of Thrones" feel Thor 2 is supposedly going to have. Personally I think that it would be fascinating for them to show, especially if they all have to have a truce and band together in the end against a great threat like Surtur.

[elizah72]

Originally Posted by jaqua99

I am with you. I just mean everything. We are all throwing alllll these ideas as to what will happen, and for a film, I just worry all these things would sort of be..cram packed.

yes it will be humans, but actors pay comes from the budget? Right? Wrong? I don't know. That was my main concern. The scale seems to be huge already, it just seems like all these characters may be a little cram packed for one movie. I am all for ALL of these things happening, I just...don't know how it will work in ONE movie.

I do think Hela will appear though atleast. But for characters, I think all we will see from thor's rogue gallery, outside of a few armies, are malekith, surtur, kurse, and hela

Well we know for a fact a few battle scenes have already been filmed with humans such as at Bourne woods, and some battle scenes filmed in Iceland too. So that's already been done. The budget for this one I thought was going to be pretty big anyway (I dont know numbers but I thought I saw it was pretty big budget compared to the first one)

And like I said, I think it's much more feasible they could hold off the Vanir for a chunk of the film while Thor and Loki go for reinforcements, and it gives something for Odin to deal with while they do that. I think they'd have a less believable time holding off Surtur or Hela's army for that long a time before it comes to a head, so, during that time Odin and the Asgardians are dealing with that they can get some of the characterizations and "story" parts of it done, and Surtur or Hela can be hinted at for later in the film. I think it could definitely work and I'm going to be really pleased if this is the direction they go in.

By the way, a man on a white horse, traditionally in film and stories is a good guy. So I think if they take any kind of note about what Branagh did in the first film, this guy on white horse character is going to be a complicated, grey and probably sympathetic antagonist, and not likely to be just a 2 dimensional bad guy. As you once said, I bet my butt.

[cherokeesam]

The Marauders are not Vanir; of that much I'm certain. The Marauders are a rag-tag band of mercenaries from across space and even time....there's even samurai amongst their lot, and medieval Chinese warriors in that battle. The only ones who resemble the Vanir are the Einherjar we see on the other side of the battlefield, and those are merely the elite guard of Asgard (the ones whose helmets look identical to Heimdall's).

As for Hela: Hela's army would be most assuredly composed of the undead. Basically a skeleton/zombie army. That's a ****load of expensive CG; and the guys in these battle scenes we've seen so far are all flesh and blood.

[elizah72]

We haven't seen them in MCU yet, so cant know for sure they will look like the Einerjar or the Asgardians. And in fact I'm quite certain they would go out of their way to make them look different from the Asgardians if they do use them in the film. To make that distinction.

And I'm telling you, the term "marauder" that's been thrown around is more than likely a misnomer, a general term being used because people aren't allowed to say who they actually are yet or it would give everything away.

There is however this artwork that made the rounds in Sept, I'm not clear if this is the official artwork released by the studio or just something similar to what the studio presented being put up, but the one for the Vanir certainly have similarities with the warriors in the pictures.



http://screencrush.com/thor-2-nine-realms (article that includes this artwork)

http://www.badhaven.com/film/film-ne...ctor-who-more/

unfortunately the Vanir apparently have been used very little in the comics, but that may give them all the more reason to explore their relationship with the Asgardians in the film. That story hasn't been told yet. and since we are expecting to see most if not all 9 realms (according to that article and others), it seems very likely we will see them.

[American Maid]

Originally Posted by elizah72

unfortunately the Vanir apparently have been used very little in the comics, but that may give them all the more reason to explore their relationship with the Asgardians in the film. That story hasn't been told yet. and since we are expecting to see most if not all 9 realms (according to that article and others), it seems very likely we will see them.

I agree. Can't wait!

[Nimloth]

The Marauders are not Vanir; of that much I'm certain. The Marauders are a rag-tag band of mercenaries from across space and even time....there's even samurai amongst their lot, and medieval Chinese warriors in that battle

Yeah, just look at these guys




So I'm with cherokeesam on this one.

And I always thought Vanir is kinda like Vanyar and esir is like Noldor eslves, if you know what i mean.
Anyway, as there's only Thor and Sif in that wood battle, and it makes me think it might not be very important battle, and definitely it is faaar from main battle.

[Nimloth]

I don't believe it is official, coz 3rd from the beginning is supposed to be Frost Giant, and no, they didn't look like this in MCU and right after him, is dark elf, and we already saw them.

[elizah72]

Actually both Fandral and Volstagg are there if you look through the pictures long enough as I have (I think both are posted in the Warriors 3 thread actually), probably Hogun is there as well he just wasnt caught by the camera. It looks like an awfully expensive battle with so many extras and fire and explosions and horses, and all kinds of money on set design and costumes. So I would say if they spent that kind of money on it, and filmed it, then it's important, otherwise the characters would just mention it in passing to each other afterwards.

As I have posted, more than once before, Nornheim is occupied by a very varied cast of characters including demons as well as humans, Vanaheim may be as well to some extent. So that's my explanation of those other creatures and different peoples there. (and again not that I think Karnilla will play a big part, if she shows up at all, she may only get mentioned as the ruler or something. Although she does take part in the battle against Surtur in the comics, and Freyr is apparently killed by him in the myths at least as noted above.)

http://marvel.com/universe/Karnilla

I'm sorry you guys don't agree, but I am sticking with this until something absolutely convinces me otherwise (and I'm pretty strongly convinced right now, that I have this right). I feel that this would be a brilliant storyline for them to do, and I think I have shown evidence that it is likely, and that it fits very very well into Thor's world and exploring the 9 realms, and the "Game of Thrones" feel.

If you want to make up your own summary on how you think it will go and smoothly fit it in with what we know about Thor 2 so far then have at it.

[Nimloth]

well, obviously if they filmed it - it has some value, but I'm pretty sure it is not main thing, just one of the worlds, or more likely some kind of fighting at edges of Asgard.

And I am very sorry, but I don't see why you think it's Vanaheim at all. Vanir supposed to be like Asgardians, but if Asgardians are more into warrior's glory, vanir are gods of fertility and wisdom

The Vanir appear to have mainly been connected with cultivation and fertility and the Æsir were connected with power and war.

These guys in Bourne woods don't really look like vanir should look.

Don't be offended. Personally, I didn't mean anything bad.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by elizah72

Actually both Fandral and Volstagg are there if you look through the pictures long enough as I have (I think both are posted in the Warriors 3 thread actually), probably Hogun is there as well he just wasnt caught by the camera. It looks like an awfully expensive battle with so many extras and fire and explosions and horses, and all kinds of money on set design and costumes. So I would say if they spent that kind of money on it, and filmed it, then it's important, otherwise the characters would just mention it in passing to each other afterwards.

Yeah, the Warriors Three are definitely present at the battle along with Thor and Sif. Pretty sure people on set reported Heimdall was there, too.

As I have posted, more than once before, Nornheim is occupied by a very varied cast of characters including demons as well as humans, Vanaheim may be as well to some extent. So that's my explanation of those other creatures and different peoples there.

Not varied enough to include humans from other cultures throughout history. The Bourne Woods battle definitely includes warriors from ancient/medieval China, Japan, the Middle East, and Europe. Not to mention alien-looking peeps with advanced technology from the far future. There's nothing Asgardian or Vanir or Dark Elf or anything else about them --- they are *definitely* time-crossers.