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Old 11-30-2012, 08:34 AM   #276
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Default Re: Bane or the Joker?

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Bane was a 2D character

Him being someone that actually cared and loved someone besides being this tyrant that wanted to destroy a city and its citizens....yah, sure sounds like 2D to me.
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Originally Posted by Aesculapius View Post
Bane did have a compelling enough backstory at the end, but that didn't make him have depth in the way other villains in the series did. With the Joker they were able to give depth to the conflict between him and Batman without you knowing a damn thing about what he was like before the events of the movie, and it worked really well.

Really he was an anti-batman when you stop to think about it. He is basically what Bruce would have been if he executed that one random criminal at the beginning of Batman Begins. The problem with that is you actually have to stop to think about it. It wasn't a feeling conveyed in the action of the movie. There are no real brash contrasts of character like what you saw between Batman and Joker, or even him and his teacher Ra's Al Ghoul. While we know the contrasts are there from dialogue, they needed to be shown more.


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Well said, Aesculapius

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Old 11-30-2012, 08:53 AM   #277
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The Joker!

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Old 11-30-2012, 11:25 AM   #278
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Default Re: Bane or the Joker?

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Bane did have a compelling enough backstory at the end, but that didn't make him have depth in the way other villains in the series did. With the Joker they were able to give depth to the conflict between him and Batman without you knowing a damn thing about what he was like before the events of the movie, and it worked really well.

Really he was an anti-batman when you stop to think about it. He is basically what Bruce would have been if he executed that one random criminal at the beginning of Batman Begins. The problem with that is you actually have to stop to think about it. It wasn't a feeling conveyed in the action of the movie. There are no real brash contrasts of character like what you saw between Batman and Joker, or even him and his teacher Ra's Al Ghoul. While we know the contrasts are there from dialogue, they needed to be shown more.
I guess, once again, TDKR is really in the eyes of the beholder. I didn't really have to think about him being this anti-Batman character because I got the hint once Bane said he was here to fulfill Ra's al Ghul's destiny; he WAS the anti-Batman that Bruce could have become and I understood that in an instant. Glad we both agree about the added emotional depth to Bane at the end though. That, imo, really made Bane a much more interesting villain. No other villain was going to be written better than Joker even if written very well, but I can say Bane was at least the second best villain of the trilogy.

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No, he just underestimated Bane's fighting ability going into the sewers. Before that he was already calling Bane 'evil' without knowing anything about him and then he went on an uncharacteristic rampage in the Batmotank that Alfred made it a point to scold him about. The whole scene felt so cheesy, and while they tried to lampshade it, it didn't really work for me at all. It was a leap in logic that should have been better addressed in the exposition.
What was un characteristic about saving hostages?

Agree that he only underestimated Bane's skills and only viewed him as some regular mercenary, but who'd blame him since he did stop the leader of the League of Shadows already.

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Indeed. Bruce just thought he would have to fight harder for longer, because it worked in the past. But the past was well and truly the past by the time he put the suit on again.


He wasn't afraid of Bane by no means and thought by fighting better, he'd have the upper hand as that was always the case.

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Old 11-30-2012, 01:01 PM   #279
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I thought Bane's "anti-Batman" aspects were pretty blatant.

- One of his first lines in the movie- "Doesn't matter who we are...what matters is our plan" (parallels "It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me")

- Uses mask to inspire fear

- Uses mask to stop pain (physical vs. emotional)

- The way he escapes with Pavel is an obvious visual mirror of Bruce's extraction of Lau from Hong Kong

- Underground lair with a waterfall is an obvious visual mirror of the Batcave

- Perverts the ideal of "a hero can be anyone" to cause confusion and panic with the detonator

- Uses tumblers

- Freed from a prison by Ra's and then trained by the LOS

- Starts with an urge to protect the innocent

If you tally up all these things, it's something that's definitely running through the film enough to be felt. It was certainly there, but it never felt like it was laid on too thick. I'm so glad there wasn't any hamfisted dialogue like "this is what I could have become if...", or anything like that. If you ask yourself "who would be worthy of actually defeating Batman?", it pretty much has to be someone like Bane, who basically is Bruce Wayne if he had fully allowed his more hateful and negative impulses to rule his life. Basically, all of Bruce's pent up rage and power, with none of the positive influences like the Waynes, Alfred, Rachel.

I never agreed with the notion that Joker is what Bruce would become if he gave in fully to the darkness. Batman is about order, not chaos. Bane is a better archetype for the concept of order taken to evil extremes. Batman and the Joker are so different and that's what makes their relationship classic, but they're not two sides of the same coin IMO. It all depends on how "insane" you like your Batman though.

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Old 11-30-2012, 01:21 PM   #280
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I agree to an extent, because Bane is the Anti-Batman, even in comics where characters like the Wraith had failed to do so, perhaps Owlman comes close second taking his interpretation on the Crisis on Two Earths Animated Film. It is a nuanced characteristic being a twisted version of Batman. But Joker is the total opposite, and that, among other things, make him the perfect villain for Batman. Total opposite ≠ twisted version.

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Old 11-30-2012, 01:27 PM   #281
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Default Re: Bane or the Joker?

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Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post
I thought Bane's "anti-Batman" aspects were pretty blatant.

- One of his first lines in the movie- "Doesn't matter who we are...what matters is our plan" (parallels "It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me")

- Uses mask to inspire fear

- Uses mask to stop pain (physical vs. emotional)

- The way he escapes with Pavel is an obvious visual mirror of Bruce's extraction of Lau from Hong Kong

- Underground lair with a waterfall is an obvious visual mirror of the Batcave

- Perverts the ideal of "a hero can be anyone" to cause confusion and panic with the detonator

- Uses tumblers

- Freed from a prison by Ra's and then trained by the LOS

- Starts with an urge to protect the innocent

If you tally up all these things, it's something that's definitely running through the film enough to be felt. It was certainly there, but it never felt like it was laid on too thick. I'm so glad there wasn't any hamfisted dialogue like "this is what I could have become if...", or anything like that. If you ask yourself "who would be worthy of actually defeating Batman?", it pretty much has to be someone like Bane, who basically is Bruce Wayne if he had fully allowed his more hateful and negative impulses to rule his life. Basically, all of Bruce's pent up rage and power, with none of the positive influences like the Waynes, Alfred, Rachel.
Spot on. The parallel between the characters is further driven home (perhaps paradoxically) by the clear contrast between Batman and Bane's viewpoints on the objectives of the LoS. Bane has come to Gotham in order to 'fulfill Ra's Al Ghul's destiny' as he puts it, while Bruce makes his position very clear in BB, 'I will go back to Gotham and I will fight men like this, but I will not become an executioner'. I'm also appreciative of the fact that the parallels between the characters were not spoon fed to us. It's all there if you pay attention.

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Old 11-30-2012, 01:31 PM   #282
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Default Re: Bane or the Joker?

It's too bad Bane's little origin scene was cut out. I think that would have really drove the point home on their similar, yet contrasting paths.

Really surprised Nolan cut it out, considering he only shoots what is needed. Guess IMAX limitations is really to blame in this case.

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Old 11-30-2012, 02:27 PM   #283
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Default Re: Bane or the Joker?

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Bane did have a compelling enough backstory at the end, but that didn't make him have depth in the way other villains in the series did. With the Joker they were able to give depth to the conflict between him and Batman without you knowing a damn thing about what he was like before the events of the movie, and it worked really well.

Really he was an anti-batman when you stop to think about it. He is basically what Bruce would have been if he executed that one random criminal at the beginning of Batman Begins. The problem with that is you actually have to stop to think about it. It wasn't a feeling conveyed in the action of the movie. There are no real brash contrasts of character like what you saw between Batman and Joker, or even him and his teacher Ra's Al Ghoul. While we know the contrasts are there from dialogue, they needed to be shown more.


No, he just underestimated Bane's fighting ability going into the sewers. Before that he was already calling Bane 'evil' without knowing anything about him and then he went on an uncharacteristic rampage in the Batmotank that Alfred made it a point to scold him about. The whole scene felt so cheesy, and while they tried to lampshade it, it didn't really work for me at all. It was a leap in logic that should have been better addressed in the exposition.
Aces post. Nailed it.

Bane was the essence of 2-D villainy.

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Old 11-30-2012, 03:21 PM   #284
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Default Re: Bane or the Joker?

Edit.

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Old 11-30-2012, 03:21 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post
I thought Bane's "anti-Batman" aspects were pretty blatant.

- One of his first lines in the movie- "Doesn't matter who we are...what matters is our plan" (parallels "It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me")

- Uses mask to inspire fear

- Uses mask to stop pain (physical vs. emotional)

- The way he escapes with Pavel is an obvious visual mirror of Bruce's extraction of Lau from Hong Kong

- Underground lair with a waterfall is an obvious visual mirror of the Batcave

- Perverts the ideal of "a hero can be anyone" to cause confusion and panic with the detonator

- Uses tumblers

- Freed from a prison by Ra's and then trained by the LOS

- Starts with an urge to protect the innocent

If you tally up all these things, it's something that's definitely running through the film enough to be felt. It was certainly there, but it never felt like it was laid on too thick. I'm so glad there wasn't any hamfisted dialogue like "this is what I could have become if...", or anything like that. If you ask yourself "who would be worthy of actually defeating Batman?", it pretty much has to be someone like Bane, who basically is Bruce Wayne if he had fully allowed his more hateful and negative impulses to rule his life. Basically, all of Bruce's pent up rage and power, with none of the positive influences like the Waynes, Alfred, Rachel.

I never agreed with the notion that Joker is what Bruce would become if he gave in fully to the darkness. Batman is about order, not chaos. Bane is a better archetype for the concept of order taken to evil extremes. Batman and the Joker are so different and that's what makes their relationship classic, but they're not two sides of the same coin IMO. It all depends on how "insane" you like your Batman though.

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Old 11-30-2012, 05:39 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Aesculapius View Post
Bane did have a compelling enough backstory at the end, but that didn't make him have depth in the way other villains in the series did. With the Joker they were able to give depth to the conflict between him and Batman without you knowing a damn thing about what he was like before the events of the movie, and it worked really well.

Really he was an anti-batman when you stop to think about it. He is basically what Bruce would have been if he executed that one random criminal at the beginning of Batman Begins. The problem with that is you actually have to stop to think about it. It wasn't a feeling conveyed in the action of the movie. There are no real brash contrasts of character like what you saw between Batman and Joker, or even him and his teacher Ra's Al Ghoul. While we know the contrasts are there from dialogue, they needed to be shown more.


No, he just underestimated Bane's fighting ability going into the sewers. Before that he was already calling Bane 'evil' without knowing anything about him and then he went on an uncharacteristic rampage in the Batmotank that Alfred made it a point to scold him about. The whole scene felt so cheesy, and while they tried to lampshade it, it didn't really work for me at all. It was a leap in logic that should have been better addressed in the exposition.
Well put

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Old 11-30-2012, 06:22 PM   #287
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Default Re: Bane or the Joker?

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Originally Posted by Aesculapius View Post
Bane did have a compelling enough backstory at the end, but that didn't make him have depth in the way other villains in the series did. With the Joker they were able to give depth to the conflict between him and Batman without you knowing a damn thing about what he was like before the events of the movie, and it worked really well.

Really he was an anti-batman when you stop to think about it. He is basically what Bruce would have been if he executed that one random criminal at the beginning of Batman Begins. The problem with that is you actually have to stop to think about it. It wasn't a feeling conveyed in the action of the movie. There are no real brash contrasts of character like what you saw between Batman and Joker, or even him and his teacher Ra's Al Ghoul. While we know the contrasts are there from dialogue, they needed to be shown more.
Did you really have to stop and think that Bane's escape with Dr Pavel at the end of TDKR's prologue was a mirror of Batman's own escape with Lau in TDK? What about the obvious ones, such as the use of Tumblers and the lair with a waterfall?

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Old 11-30-2012, 06:22 PM   #288
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He had to stop and think

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Old 11-30-2012, 10:24 PM   #289
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Hands down Joker. Bane was a physical match for Bats but Joker was better, creepier and pushed Bats to the limit.

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Old 12-01-2012, 04:11 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post
If you tally up all these things, it's something that's definitely running through the film enough to be felt. It was certainly there, but it never felt like it was laid on too thick. I'm so glad there wasn't any hamfisted dialogue like "this is what I could have become if...", or anything like that. If you ask yourself "who would be worthy of actually defeating Batman?", it pretty much has to be someone like Bane, who basically is Bruce Wayne if he had fully allowed his more hateful and negative impulses to rule his life. Basically, all of Bruce's pent up rage and power, with none of the positive influences like the Waynes, Alfred, Rachel.

I never agreed with the notion that Joker is what Bruce would become if he gave in fully to the darkness. Batman is about order, not chaos. Bane is a better archetype for the concept of order taken to evil extremes. Batman and the Joker are so different and that's what makes their relationship classic, but they're not two sides of the same coin IMO. It all depends on how "insane" you like your Batman though.
Crucial wording right there. If there's anything I didn't quite like about this trilogy (at least the first two movies) it was the manner in which Nolan hammered home his various messages & ideas. TDKR lets a lot of things just happen, which presumably caused some confusion lol so maybe Nolan was right to sledgehammer every point into submission after all.

That being said, Bane & Joker in relationship to Batman are both true to their comic roots. Bane is the literal doppleganger/alternate reality version of Batman in a philosophical sense. The Joker is Batman's opposite in a psychological sense. Just the mere presence of a Batman creates the necessity of a Joker, the yin to the yang. Stoic, incorruptible, moral justice vs chaotic, lawless, anarchy, so it is a polar opposite. Bane just represents the polar opposite in a literal, physical manifestation of someone with the same exact skills but none of the redeeming morality.

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Old 12-01-2012, 05:02 AM   #291
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Your anti-Batman Bane comparisons are excellent, BatLobsterRises.

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Old 12-01-2012, 06:45 AM   #292
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Not sure if anyone mentioned that anti Batman theme carries over into the masks themselves. Batman's whole face is hiddent except his mouth, while Bane's whole face is revealed except his mouth.

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Old 12-01-2012, 12:59 PM   #293
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Default Re: Bane or the Joker?

i think the real question is : which would you rather get killed by ?

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Old 12-01-2012, 02:37 PM   #294
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Not sure if anyone mentioned that anti Batman theme carries over into the masks themselves. Batman's whole face is hiddent except his mouth, while Bane's whole face is revealed except his mouth.
Yeah I have the posters and I never really payed it any mind until someone pointed it out, it's really cool.

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Old 12-01-2012, 07:06 PM   #295
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i think the real question is : which would you rather get killed by ?
Well Batman won't be killing me unless I'm on a runaway train or carrying a nuclear bomb, so I'm good. But with Bane, on the other hand, he may try to snap my neck as fast as he can snap his fingers, lol.

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Old 12-01-2012, 07:18 PM   #296
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Well, Bane's kill scenes seemed pretty fast. The Joker talked about why he liked to use a knife. I think I"d rather be killed by Bane and get it over with.

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Old 12-01-2012, 07:26 PM   #297
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Oh, he meant Bane or Joker.....ahh, that makes more sense now

Joker would make you suffer; Bane wouldn't...unless you wear a cape and cowl.

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Old 12-01-2012, 07:28 PM   #298
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The Joker, because he sometimes likes to do some psychological torture before he does it. Just look at the likes of Gambol, or the Brian Douglas copycat Batman.

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Old 12-01-2012, 07:50 PM   #299
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The Joker, because he sometimes likes to do some psychological torture before he does it. Just look at the likes of Gambol, or the Brian Douglas copycat Batman.
You'd prefer to get killed by the joker for that reason? Ha, I think that'd freak me out even more. I wouldn't have wanted to have been in Douglas's shoes.

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Old 12-01-2012, 08:20 PM   #300
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You'd prefer to get killed by the joker for that reason? Ha, I think that'd freak me out even more. I wouldn't have wanted to have been in Douglas's shoes.
Whoops, sorry I meant to say the Joker would have been worse because of those reasons.

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