Bane or the Joker?

[BlueLightning]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

Bane's siege did create depravity. America is what we would like to consider a civilized society, yet people were being ripped out of their homes by FELLOW CITIZENS and thrown out on to the streets without trial or judgement. You also had the fact that citizens were cheering on the sidelines as their neighbors (figuratively) were being condemned to death or exile WITHOUT DUE PROCCESS OF LAW. If thats not depravity then I don't know what is

Holy Molly! I didn't catch that. I really need to see it again.

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by BlueLightning

Holy Molly! I didn't catch that. I really need to see it again.

This all occurs in the montage as Bane is speaking in front of Blackgate. Epic scene

[BlueLightning]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Yup it would, but I reckon the evacuation of Gotham cos of Joker and the National Guard being called in and all of that woulda made big headlines, too.

Ya have to think of how big of effect the J-Man had on the Bat too. 8 years of no more Batman, depression, guilt, sorrow. All that jazz.

Bane's holiday in the pit for Bruce can't compare to that.

I disagree, because it wasn't a holiday. Bruce was impaired to do nothing while his city was crumbling, the entire town. That's real pain.

[BatLobsterRises]

Yes, Joker definitely had more of a lasting negative impact on Bruce personally. Oddly enough I think Bane had more of a positive impact on Bruce in the long run. If Bane didn't break him and throw him in the pit while torturing Gotham, Bruce might have never learned to value his own life.

Let's not forget though, both men reduced Bruce to tears after all, heh.

Originally Posted by Tequilla

There's a reason Joker is such a beloved and well known villain . A lot of villains create much more mayhem.

Indeed. The Joker is a one of a kind type of villain. There's a discussion between C-Nolan, J-Nolan and Goyer in the TDK Trilogy: The Complete Screenplays book. In it, Jonah confirms that the Joker is his favorite villain, while Chris seems to imply he's currently more taken with Bane. It's a nice read.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Yup it would, but I reckon the evacuation of Gotham cos of Joker and the National Guard being called in and all of that woulda made big headlines, too.

Ya have to think of how big of effect the J-Man had on the Bat too. 8 years of no more Batman, depression, guilt, sorrow. All that jazz.

Bane's holiday in the pit for Bruce can't compare to that.

The bold is the biggest reason why Joker gets the 'Impact' award. It's not the actual plans between the two, but what Joker did kept Bruce on the sidelines for years. As much as Bane tried to create a false revolution or try to destroy Gotham City, Joker left an impact that hit Bruce Wayne hard after Joker's "reign of terror" ended.

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by BlueLightning

I disagree, because it wasn't a holiday. Bruce was impaired to do nothing while his city was crumbling, the entire town. That's real pain.

I meant it was a holiday compared to the lasting pain Joker left him with.

8 years vs 5 months.

No contest. Joker messed up Bruce the worst.

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

The bold is the biggest reason why Joker gets the 'Impact' award. It's not the actual plans between the two, but what Joker did kept Bruce on the sidelines for years. As much as Bane tried to create a false revolution or try to destroy Gotham City, Joker left an impact that hit Bruce Wayne hard after Joker's "reign of terror" ended.

I agree that the Joker left the biggest impact on Bruce, but can you imagine the impact Bane left on EVERYONE in Gotham? This isn't Afghanistan or some third world country where people are used to war, this is a city full of civilians (AND CHILDREN) most of whom likely had never been in a warzone. Can you imagine the psychological toll a five month siege would take on 12 million civilians?

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

I agree that the Joker left the biggest impact on Bruce, but can you imagine the impact Bane left on EVERYONE in Gotham? This isn't Afghanistan or some third world country where people are used to war, this is a city full of civilians (AND CHILDREN) most of whom likely had never been in a warzone. Can you imagine the psychological toll a five month siege would take on 12 million civilians?

Gordon's pretty little speech at the end made it sound like Gotham was on the up and they were all worshiping Batman cos he saved them.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

I agree that the Joker left the biggest impact on Bruce, but can you imagine the impact Bane left on EVERYONE in Gotham? This isn't Afghanistan or some third world country where people are used to war, this is a city full of civilians (AND CHILDREN) most of whom likely had never been in a warzone. Can you imagine the psychological toll a five month siege would take on 12 million civilians?

Do you think everyone will remember this for eight years and keep everyone in a desperate mode as Joker's actions did with Bruce?

Granted, yes, a siege on US soil could be as terrible as 9/11, but I just feel that Joker's impact was much, much worse as it kept a man from resuming his duties as the guardian of the city.

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Do you think everyone will remember this for eight years and keep everyone in a desperate mode as Joker's actions did with Bruce?

Is this a serious question? You don't think a 5 month siege on an American city will be remembered for much longer than a maybe one month period (being generous) where a clown/terrorist blew up random ****? Bane's actions would change America's infrastructure forever

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

Is this a serious question? You don't think a 5 month siege on an American city will be remembered for much longer than a maybe one month period (being generous) where a clown/terrorist blew up random ****? Bane's actions would change America's infrastructure forever

The emotions of people. Do you think they will be affected as much as Bruce that will last for eight years?

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

The emotions of people. Do you think they will be affected as much as Bruce that will last for eight years?

I'd even argue Gotham was living under Joker effects for 8 years since their peace time was based on a lie that was created to stop the Joker from winning (The Joker cannot win. Gotham needs it's true hero).

They were just blissfully unaware of it.

[BatLobsterRises]

A lot of this comes down to second movie vs. third movie stuff. A lot of the time in trilogies, the second movie is where evil really gets the upper hand.

For instance, Darth Vader...bigger impact in Empire or Jedi? See what I mean?

It's any three act structure. Joker does most of his worst damage in TDK's second act just like Bane does most of his in TDKR's second act. And TDK is the second act of the TDK trilogy.

Don't get me wrong though, Bane did a toooon of damage. But in terms of the hero's journey, Joker ultimately beats Bats. Whereas Bane is the overwhelming threat that Bruce must overcome to reach the end of his journey.

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

The emotions of people. Do you think they will be affected as much as Bruce that will last for eight years?

When I said impact, I didn't strictly mean on Bruce. Bruce atleast is somewhat suited for battle, he trained 7 years for that very purpose. We're talking about a city full of civilians (never trained for wartime purposes) who were basically in a warzone for five months. If we're talking the citizens of Gotham being impacted vs. just Bruce Wayne (and a few of his allies), I think the citizens win.

@ The Joker: The Dent Act was an indirect result of the Joker's actions, Bane's plan WAS the siege.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

an indirect result of the Joker's actions, Bane's plan WAS the siege.

True, but still undeniably a result of the Joker's actions.

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by The Joker

True, but still undeniably a result of the Joker's actions.

If we're talking about indirect results of actions, Bane's plan would change American's National Security policies forever. A 5 month siege on an American city would show the world that even the greatest nation (some would say) was vulnerable to this kind of attack, and thus every major city in the Western world (ATLEAST) would have to up the ante on how drastically they protected themselves from breach. The plan would not just affect Gotham (as the Dent Act presumably did), it would change the WORLD. You guys saw how 9/11 affected the Intelligence/Security community, can you imagine how much Bane's plan would?

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

If we're talking about indirect results of actions, Bane's plan would change American's National Security policies forever. A 5 month siege on an American city would show the world that even the greatest nation (some would say) was vulnerable to this kind of attack, and thus every major city in the Western world (ATLEAST) would have to up the ante on how drastically they protected themselves from breach. The plan would not just affect Gotham (as the Dent Act presumably did), it would change the WORLD. You guys saw how 9/11 affected the Intelligence/Security community, can you imagine how much Bane's plan would?

Oh I didn't know we were talking worldwide. I thought we were talking about Gotham. The confinements of Batman's world.

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Oh I didn't know we were talking worldwide. I thought we were talking about Gotham. The confinements of Batman's world.

Impact period. I didn't try to define it in the opening post, you can take anything you want from it

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Oh I didn't know we were talking worldwide. I thought we were talking about Gotham. The confinements of Batman's world.

To be fair I should have specified though. My bad

[Grommers]

Personally, I really wonder how the villains would of acted with each other.

Ras, never really got a chance to interact with Scarecrow.

Harvey dent and Joker interacted with each other, and I thought it was an amazing scene seeing the two.

Bane, and I guess Talia..but well, that was sold short I feel, so you could argue catwoman, which had a nice little scene or background knowledge with even catwoman scared of Bane.

But how Ras would have reacted around scarecrow, seeing bane react to Ras, or the Joker talking to either of those, they are all distinct characters in the way they act.



Overall, I feel Bane made a bigger impact than the Joker did on Gotham. Joker however made a bigger impact on Bruce, as Bane never really..."broke" the bat, but just the body, for a while.

Where as the Joker realllllly broke the Bat, what he set in motion, never really got fixed till 8 years later. And although Gotham was fixed, Bruce was so far gone, that suicide became an option.

To compare the two would be apples to oranges, I don't feel Joker was really ever interested in Gotham, but merely trying to ensure the world was just chaos, that you could reason chaos. That there was justification to chaos, that there really wasn't any other way to view things.

Bane had one viewing, that of the Ras Al Ghul and the league of shadows, it shows where loyalty can get you what path it can take you down, there's quite a bit of loyalty shown through out the movie, Bruce's loyalty to gotham.

Two opposites -

out of sheer preference I prefer the Joker...he really takes someone and makes them see things..differently, with reason. Chaotic reasoning, but it's well-reasoned, and yet bruce/batman does his best to counter that, and doesn't get swayed on his view point or lose sight of whats right or wrong, even at the worst of times. I think thats what I most enjoyed about the Joker, he has a way of swaying people, of manipulating or inspiring(whatever way you want to look at it.) them but in an evil way. Much like Batman tries too, but in a positive good way.

Bane on the other hand, is just pure evil, accepts that, and is much more like a dictatorship about it. It's my way, or I'll kill you sort of attitude.

Much simpler but simple doesn't always mean worse.

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Yes, but think about it- they also used him. They used his company to get they wanted. They used it as a means to get a nuclear device that's waiting for them within Gotham City. They took hold of his "precious armory" so they could establish marshal law. It's just like how they wanted to use him to get the microwave emitter in Batman Begins. Bruce was selected because of his status in Gotham in the first place. "As Gotham's favorite son, you will be ideally placed...".

They needed Wayne Enterprises to accomplish their mission. We're not shown any comparable corporation within Gotham. His biggest rival, Daggett is into cement pouring. Wayne was the one guy within Gotham who had the resources, and they turned his wealth against his city. The whole point is Bruce Wayne IS Gotham. Attacking one is attacking the other. That's how it coincides. The biggest thing that they do purely out of revenge is keep him alive instead of killing him, so he can watch their plan unfold. If revenge/hatred wasn't a factor, Talia would have had Bane kill him, instead of just break him, just like they killed Daggett when they got what they wanted from him.

It's like how Rachel tells Bruce in Batman Begins, justice and revenge are never the same. The fact that the LOS' ideals are tainted by revenge here is what makes it so evil and twisted. So in that sense, yes I can agree that revenge was a huge factor. But I think Bane and Talia fully believe that their entire plan is bringing justice and is fulfilling the goals of Ra's' global ideals. Similar thing with Two-Face in TDK. His killing spree is driven by revenge for Rachel's murder, but there's some sense of justice there too...he's taking out a lot of the trash and he's giving his victims a "fair" chance, same one Rachel had. That line between justice and revenge is something the films were always exploring, obviously starting with Batman himself.

Agreed. Ra's, Bane, Talia, the League believe that justice=balance (revenge). For all them, their 'revenge' ends up being their undoing (leaving Bruce to die in his burning home & torturing Bruce in the pit, ironically being the reason why he's able to escape)

This is the difference between them and Bruce (and Rachel).

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

When I said impact, I didn't strictly mean on Bruce. Bruce atleast is somewhat suited for battle, he trained 7 years for that very purpose. We're talking about a city full of civilians (never trained for wartime purposes) who were basically in a warzone for five months. If we're talking the citizens of Gotham being impacted vs. just Bruce Wayne (and a few of his allies), I think the citizens win.

@ The Joker: The Dent Act was an indirect result of the Joker's actions, Bane's plan WAS the siege.

Then the criteria should be expanded on in speaking on the impact left on Bruce and the impact left on the city. For Bruce, Joker wins; for the city, Bane wins. Not to get into a discussion on Gotham dealing with Bane's five-month tyranny afterwards, but the city felt more of an impact within five months than Joker's "reign" of like a week or so, for however long it is.

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Then the criteria should be expanded on in speaking on the impact left on Bruce and the impact left on the city. .

All I wrote in the original post was impact, I never defined whether it was strictly on Bruce or the city

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

All I wrote in the original post was impact, I never defined whether it was strictly on Bruce or the city

Which is also, in any case, why I said this

Impact - Joker during his time and after; Bane only during his time of reign

[Happy Jack]

To be honest, there is absolutely no reason to compare the two. In a lot of ways they are exact opposites as villains, even if they both wanted to destroy Gotham and break Batman.