Uncle Ben's Killer

[Rise_-]

Because this is bound to be brought up:

Peter finding his uncle's killer in the final movie is fine because it's not like he found him in the first movie...

It was a very different case with Spider-Man 1 and Spider-Man 3.

[UltimateWebhead]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Perhaps you're right, but Peter could be out doing his usual saving old women from purse snatchers routine since he's not really on some vendetta anymore after Captain Stacy's speech.

Peter won't be in 'vigilante mode' anymore but that doesn't mean he won't stop looking for his Uncle's killer. It just means that when he does find him, he'll more than likely just turn him over to the police and not kill him like he prob would have prior to learning some hard lessons. Besides, I'm gonna assume that the thief that killed Uncle Ben is still prob back to his thieving ways or other ciminal activity and through Peter's crime stopping crusade, their paths will once again cross.

[Oscorp]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Maybe very cliche, but name a CBM that isn't at times, lol. Although, I would not be surprised Webb has his Peter let the killer go as well.




If Flint Marko was the killer from the very beginning and turned into Sandman, people would be less upset, imo, because TSSM did it so well with having Uncle Ben's killer being Black Cat's father from the beginning and no one really complained over that, so if the real killer ends up becoming a villain, I don't see any fuss. It's the retcon people seem to be much more upset about and it's the reason I am upset about Marko being the killer, the retcon only.

I'm not a big fan of how TSSM handled it either.

I want the killer to be this random guy. I just think that's so much cooler. Peter's got all these supervillains with powers etc. but the one who started the whole journey for Peter, the one who killed his father figure, was a normal, random thief.

[OcStat]

Now I want to watch this movie again as well haha. Out of the 4 movies this one has been the most rewarding watching over again. I enjoyed the movie in the theater and uncover some new subtlety each time I see it.

Where as Spider-Man 2 was an instant classic I couldn't possibly like more than I already do. Spider-Man 3, I loved in upon first viewing, really resonated with me. The flaws that I used to gloss over are just to blatant.

Like deleted scenes developing the Sandman's character. An extra 5 minutes and the character becomes so much more relevant. Or the fact that he pulled the trigger on Uncle Ben. Why even go there? Marko being involved is interesting, but just making him the hesitant accomplice in the car jacking is enough. They could've said Marko made a break for it after the Thief and Spider-Man went into the warehouse. And you wouldn't lose the movies forgiveness theme, which I enjoyed (Yes even Peter letting Sandman go) but without the extra insight into Marko it falls flat. Or the infamous Butler confesses to Harry scene. Raimi could've just OMITTED that drinker altogether, and then you have Harry showing up to the Battle Royal on his own accord. Just seeing Peter genuinely ask Harry for help and then Harry's big entrance would've been a much better end to his story. Instead of his crusty old Butler telling him some BS years too late, showing us what didn't need to be said or shown, Harry would have jumped to his ONLY friends aid, as if to say, "Yeah my Dad is dead but he was a murdering psycho who treated me like a jerk, and Peter and MJ who actually gave a crap, need me! I forgive Pete for blowing up half my face and just being in the room while my dumb ass dad shanked himself." (Another way to make the forgiveness them have more resonance.)

But really that's enough of SM3 I'm sure every fan has a few things they would do different with that movie. We should all post the plots we envisioned for SM3 after walking out of SM2 haha.

Back to ASM, after watching the deleted scenes I can't believe they made the same mistake from SM3, cutting out scenes that develop the villain! All of Ifan's scenes should've been in the movie! Actually this is my one complaint about the film, and I didn't even have this issue till getting the BR. The scene with the Lizard talking to himself about his strength, teeth and claws was like peering into his Reptilian Brain...just a more clever scene than hearing the voice in his head, which was to similar to Norman Osborn's in SM1. The scene's with Connor's visiting Peter at his home after Uncle Ben's death was great. And visiting Billy at his bus stop. The lack of Connor's family was a real missed opportunity, it is surprising Webb overlooked the parallel's possible with the Parker's and Connor's and fatherhood and neglect.

I mean, I can see not having a lot of exposition on those 2 extra characters (Mrs. Connor's and Billy), it would take away screen time from more important things, but they could've added a lot more weight to Connor's. Though if they (absurdly) cut Ifan's own scenes his family's scenes were doomed. I always thought, "How hard would it have been" to have Mrs. Connors answer the door when Peter went over his house, just so we know now family exists. Or a shot of his family watching the news report of Connor's arrest.

I have no complaints about the lack of Dr. Ratha's extra scenes, or any allusion to Richard experimenting on Peter. The untold story is Peter's relationship with his Parents. In AMS 1 the search has just started, Peter has barely learned about his father's work, and learned why his Father kept so many secrets, because they were dangerous. I'm glad they are saving the next part of that untold story for the sequel. The deleted scene that showed Spider-Man finding Connors and they're subsequent conversation is another that should've been included in the film, but I'd have preferred it to cut after Lizard blindsides Spidey, we don't need to see Ratha pop up for a split second, lay some mumbo jumbo on Peter and get wasted. I assumed he was dead after the bridge anyway. I personally don't want any Any Lee-esque father experimenting on son, but its wise to save those new questions about Peer's parents for the next movie instead of cramming in one or two sentences here.


(I apologize for the wall of text I try to keep my posts brief...I could talk Spidey all day.)

[Just one more]

He couldn't get his chocolate milk so he lets a violent crime occur.

This scene does so much to ruin the film.

[Rise_-]

It wasn't about the chocolate milk, it was about the fact that the cashier was being a ********.

How are people missing this?

[Picard Sisko]

Originally Posted by Just one more

He couldn't get his chocolate milk so he lets a violent crime occur.

This scene does so much to ruin the film.

First of all, Peter didn't know that this would lead to someone's death, especially that of his Uncle. He wasn't a "crime fighter" yet either. He just discovered his powers, and didn't really know what to use them for yet. He just got into a fight at home, and now with a store clerk. He is a TEENAGER.

In SM1, he couldn't get his $3000, so he let a violent crime occur as well. I think the chocolate milk makes it more ironic in a way. Point is, he was selfish, and didn't use his powers to do the right thing. Hence, he learns responsibility.

[OcStat]

Take the above with the fact that Tobey was after that 3 grand to buy a car to impress MJ, and you have a better origin.

[Just one more]

Originally Posted by OcStat

Take the above with the fact that Tobey was after that 3 grand to buy a car to impress MJ, and you have a better origin.

Exactly!

Toby was using his powers for personal gain and this led to the tragedy of his uncles death, leading perfectly to the "great power great responsibility" theme that ran through the trilogy.

Garfield couldn't get his chocolate milk and this led to his uncle's death.

Which one was the more powerful origin?

[Picard Sisko]

Originally Posted by Just one more

Exactly!

Toby was using his powers for personal gain and this led to the tragedy of his uncles death, leading perfectly to the "great power great responsibility" theme that ran through the trilogy.

Garfield couldn't get his chocolate milk and this led to his uncle's death.

Which one was the more powerful origin?

SM1 had the better origin, but the point still gets across in both. The filmmakers knew we already saw the origin story, so they were probably trying to speed it up a little.

[OcStat]

I meant that fact about SM1 makes the origin better in Amazing.

SM1 is closer to the original comic book; with how Peter ends up at the wrestling ring and the robber rips that place off etc, but MJ being the root cause of his being there and setting the following events into motion is weak to me. Weak AFTER seeing Webb's new version, I should say. Raimi's was suitable for its comic accuracy, but they had change for change's sake. Webb takes larger creative liberty, makes bigger changes to make a new interpretation of the origin, and I think that's pretty cool.

[Picard Sisko]

Originally Posted by OcStat

I meant that fact about SM1 makes the origin better in Amazing.

It is closer to the original comic book, how he ends up at the wrestling ring and the robber rips that place off etc, but MJ being the root cause of his being there and setting the following events into motion is weak to me. Weak AFTER seeing Webb's new version, I should say. Raimi's was suitable for its comic accuracy, but they had change for change's sake. Webb takes larger creative liberty, makes bigger changes to make a new interpretation of the origin, and I think that's pretty cool.

This is where I say I don't mind change as long as its done well. I think the SM1 origin will always have a bigger impact on me because its what I grew up with, and it has the wrestling scene. But I do see where you are getting at. It seemed like MJ was Peter's motivation for everything in the Raimi films.

[Spiderdevil]

Originally Posted by Just one more

He couldn't get his chocolate milk so he lets a violent crime occur.

This scene does so much to ruin the film.

Its not about the milk,its about sending a message

[Spiderdevil]

Personally I dont care as much for the chocolate milk thing as much for the
'I gotta handle high tech stuff at OSCORP so lets not pick Aunt May up'

A skateboarding competition or something would have been better.

[Picard Sisko]

Originally Posted by Spiderdevil

Personally I dont care as much for the chocolate milk thing as much for the
'I gotta handle high tech stuff at OSCORP so lets not pick Aunt May up'

A skateboarding competition or something would have been better.

Are you being serious?

[Smegger56]

With the exception of the way bend death was shot, I found TASMs origin better. I really did.

Unlike SM1, pete isn't 'Spider-Man' yet in the sense of being a selfless hero until after the bridge scene. He's obsessed with finding his uncles killer, even when donning the costume.

I felt this origin had far mow to it. And that's why I like it so much.

That's not to say I don't like the SM1 origin. I really enjoy enjoyed it right up to the transition shot of he costume drawing to the city swing.

I just enjoyed TASM a lot more.

[Just one more]

Originally Posted by Smegger56

With the exception of the way bend death was shot, I found TASMs origin better. I really did.

Unlike SM1, pete isn't 'Spider-Man' yet in the sense of being a selfless hero until after the bridge scene. He's obsessed with finding his uncles killer, even when donning the costume.

I just see it as implausible that he wasn't able to catch the killer that night. He got a pretty damn good look at him in the store and Uncle Ben does die relatively quickly (as opposed to Trinity's ten minute death scene in Matrix Revolutions). I mean the whole point was that he had enough control of his powers to stop the guy but chose not to so why couldn't he find him when he clearly could not have gotten very far away.

It just seems they left the whole thing unresolved just so that they would have something for the sequel.

Originally Posted by Smegger56

I felt this origin had far more to it. And that's why I like it so much.

I respectfully disagree. If anything it had less to it.

In Raimi's, when Uncle Ben dies Peter loses control and his rage takes over. He has no thought but vengeance. When he catches up to the thief and sees that he himself is to blame, you can see his world crumbling, he almost gets shot in the face he is in that much shock.

Later when thinking on the events and how he was responsible for two deaths that night is when Uncle Ben's classic words (great power great responsibility) start to resonate. We then see him starting to become the hero, taking those words to heart and using them for strength.

In TASM we get none of that. I mean he learns the lesson about responsibility through the death of Gwen's dad and the promise he made which he seems so eager to break.

In the sequel when he catches Ben's murderer, is anyone here seriously going to feel any tension in that scene? You know as well as I do that he is not going to kill that guy, he will turn him over to the police and that will be the basis for the side plot of the police forgiving him and the city coming to love him.

On a side note, Spidey's iPhone now has a voided warranty due to all that sewer water

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by Just one more

I just see it as implausible that he wasn't able to catch the killer that night. He got a pretty damn good look at him in the store and Uncle Ben does die relatively quickly (as opposed to Trinity's ten minute death scene in Matrix Revolutions). I mean the whole point was that he had enough control of his powers to stop the guy but chose not to so why couldn't he find him when he clearly could not have gotten very far away.

How would he have been able to find him? He heard a gunshot go off, went to look what happened and found Uncle Ben on the ground. Then immediately tried to stop the bleeding. At this point he didn't know who did it, not until he got home and got a picture from the Police Officer.

And even if he knew that it was the guy he let go, he could have wandered off in any direction. In Raimi's Spider-Man, he was only able to catch the thief, because he was already chased down by the Cops in Uncle Ben's car. So he wasn't that hard to follow.

[Picard Sisko]

How would he have been able to find Uncle Ben's killer that night? Was he going to leave his Uncle alone and chase the killer, or stay with the man who raised him and try to stop the bleeding. He wasn't a superhero yet. The killer probably ran off and highjacked another car and drove away.

[Spiderdevil]

Originally Posted by Picard Sisko

Are you being serious?

Yeah,Like him going to skate boarding competition(Instead of a wrestling one) and forgets to pick Aunt May up,the whole him idea of him doing a Tony Stark at OsCorp felt odd to me

The burglar doesnt need to be related to the competition though

[Spiderdevil]

Originally Posted by Just one more

In Raimi's, when Uncle Ben dies Peter loses control and his rage takes over. He has no thought but vengeance. When he catches up to the thief and sees that he himself is to blame, you can see his world crumbling, he almost gets shot in the face he is in that much shock.

Later when thinking on the events and how he was responsible for two deaths that night is when Uncle Ben's classic words (great power great responsibility) start to resonate. We then see him starting to become the hero, taking those words to heart and using them for strength.

Those 2 parts still give me shivers.Never felt any moment so strong in any CBM

The time when Ben dies and he gets up and runs into that alley
And later when he takes the costume out of the case and the words resonate,cue to the montage
Great scenes

On a side note, Spidey's iPhone now has a voided warranty due to all that sewer water

Good point,how the heck does him phone survive the sewer water
Better still,where does he keep him mobile,he's got no pockets in his costume

[Picard Sisko]

Originally Posted by Spiderdevil

Yeah,Like him going to skate boarding competition(Instead of a wrestling one) and forgets to pick Aunt May up,the whole him idea of him doing a Tony Stark at OsCorp felt odd to me

The burglar doesnt need to be related to the competition though

The skateboard gets trashed enough as it is, and throwing in a skateboarding competition would have pissed off more people. I have no problems with the skateboard, but a skateboard competition would have been awful. At least working with Dr. Connors was relevant and helped the progression of the story.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by UltimateWebhead

Peter won't be in 'vigilante mode' anymore but that doesn't mean he won't stop looking for his Uncle's killer. It just means that when he does find him, he'll more than likely just turn him over to the police and not kill him like he prob would have prior to learning some hard lessons. Besides, I'm gonna assume that the thief that killed Uncle Ben is still prob back to his thieving ways or other ciminal activity and through Peter's crime stopping crusade, their paths will once again cross.

Perhaps he will obviously run into the thief with their paths being crossed, but there still is a chance they may not. Hence why I'm sticking with 'maybe'.

Originally Posted by Oscorp

I'm not a big fan of how TSSM handled it either.

I want the killer to be this random guy. I just think that's so much cooler. Peter's got all these supervillains with powers etc. but the one who started the whole journey for Peter, the one who killed his father figure, was a normal, random thief.

You didn't like the way TSSM had it? I was actually fine with the change because I honestly thought it didn't matter who killed Uncle Ben as long as a lesson was learned, but the retcon itself in Spider-Man 3 was unpleasant. And of course, unnecessary.

[Nicko-Ray]

Originally Posted by Picard Sisko

First of all, Peter didn't know that this would lead to someone's death, especially that of his Uncle. He wasn't a "crime fighter" yet either. He just discovered his powers, and didn't really know what to use them for yet. He just got into a fight at home, and now with a store clerk. He is a TEENAGER.

In SM1, he couldn't get his $3000, so he let a violent crime occur as well. I think the chocolate milk makes it more ironic in a way. Point is, he was selfish, and didn't use his powers to do the right thing. Hence, he learns responsibility.

I agree with this the most. I totally understand what you guys are saying here about Raimi's being closer to the comics. Wrestling scene, MJ/the car money/personal gain -> ties up to uncle ben's death and that being a main driving factor to being Spider-Man (in all three movies). Totally.

Marc Webb did say that Uncle Ben's death was the hardest thing to get by Marvel. Like OcStat said, it was change for change's sake. It's a completely different universe, and if you say that Raimi's origin had the bigger, more emotional impact, then sure.
I just feel like there is also an emotional consequence here when Peter really could have stopped the thief, but chose not to, clearly because he was angry at the cashier. Again, his mind was clouded and was simply being a teenager. He then realizes he should've stopped him...and so on.

With the voicemail message at the end, it's as if Peter has summed up what has happened to him- captain Stacy's death, lizard/Connors, Gwen, and he realizes that his Uncle Ben's words make him feel alright. Kind of a "shelter" type ish.

[Oscorp]

Yeah I prefer that whole origin/death sequence in SM1 much more than in ASM. But I prefer in ASM that the whole film kinda is his origin.