Does Bane being a PURELY physical threat hamper him as a villain?

[TheBat812]

Originally Posted by The Joker

As I do with you. But I'm more a creature of fact (not that I don't enjoy some personal interpretation because I've done it myself with BB and TDK) when it comes to Nolan's movies because I know his style with the villains in the Batman movies, is to be so literal about their motives. He doesn't go for subtly.

The moment Talia starts to monologue and filling in all those blanks about the bits and pieces we were given all through the movie about the story of Bane and the pit and his tie to the LOS, you know this is Nolan's moment where he's spelling out the real story behind the whole LOS return. Namely her.

I'm curious as to why you don't take what Bane is saying at face value. As I just posted, Nolan has attested to the fact that Bane believes what he says. He IS doing exactly what he did with the rest of his villains. It's the surrounding legend that has built around him that is false and applies to Talia.

Bane is challenging Bruce's notion that there are good people in Gotham to rise up and fix things, knowing that they will not (who would try to fight armed mercenaries and convicts?). He thinks this will hurt Bruce to see that ra's and the LOS were right all along, that the only way to save them is through the destruction of Gotham. Yes, what he says is meant to 'poison Gotham's soul with hope', but just because his words have an ulterior motive does NOT mean he doesn't believe what he's saying.

[BatLobsterRises]

I agree. While I think Nolan left the audience with a bit more work to do in terms of understanding Bane as opposed to previous villains, there isn't anything in the film that would lead me believe that Bane is someone who would be putting on a performance when he's only speaking to Bruce Wayne. Just because we learn of Talia's importance at the end of the film, I don't see how this negates the conviction that we get to see in his more intimate moments in the film.

That all said, this is a very level-headed debate on both sides, and that's always great to see.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Ryan

This is how I see it as well. Unfortunately with these debates, as with everything else, stuff is open to interpretation. I'm more of a literal person, so if I don't hear it in the movie or see some type of particular proof I find it hard to accept. Not to say others interpretations are wrong, its just that I need more hard evidence. Other's see the movie and interpret all kinds of things. I talked to one person that said that the LOS was all over TDK and therefore it was natural they would be in tdkr..really? He pointed out some facts here and there, and I guess ya by a huge stretch they were...but would the average fan that saw begins once and tdk once honestly see that? No idea.

Nobody ever suggested that after TDK was released. Hilarious lol. Who ever this person you were speaking to is he or she is taking conjecture and interpretation to a whole new level. TDK was about the consequences of Batman on Gotham. As Nolan said, Batman had opened a whole new can of worms (the escalation with the mob, the Joker, the Batman copycats etc), and he has to deal with that.

Nothing at all to do with the LOS.

Originally Posted by TheBat812

I'm curious as to why you don't take what Bane is saying at face value.

Because he says he's going to feed Gotham false hope. False as in what he's saying isn't true and he's telling them a bunch of stuff they want to hear. So his pretty speeches to them is nothing but lies to get their hopes up of getting their city back. Outside of this phony public propaganda we never once hear Bane speak on a personal level about any of the LOS beliefs.

As I just posted, Nolan has attested to the fact that Bane believes what he says.

Have you got a link to where Nolan specified this? I'd like to see his exact words.

Bane is challenging Bruce's notion that there are good people in Gotham to rise up and fix things, knowing that they will not (who would try to fight armed mercenaries and convicts?).

No, Joker was challenging Batman's notion that there are good people in Gotham, hence why he was bending over backwards to try and break them to show they are as bad as he is deep down.

Bane's spells it out in the pit scene with Bruce that he is going to torture Bruce's soul by making him watch as he tortures Gotham by giving them false hope to poison their souls. He makes Bruce watch it all on TV.

It was nothing about challenging Bruce's idea about there being good people in Gotham. The siege was supposed to be one long torture process of Bruce and Gotham, but we know it was dragged out as long as it was to give Bruce ample time to recover and escape and come back to Gotham.

Realistically Bane could have done what he needed to do in a month and achieved the same ends.

Yes, what he says is meant to 'poison Gotham's soul with hope', but just because his words have an ulterior motive does NOT mean he doesn't believe what he's saying.

But I think it does since he never gives any personal insights into how or why he feels this way. I again call to your attention how Nolan deals with his main villains and their motivations. With Ra's and the Joker you got some insight into why they were the way they were.

Ra's lost his wife. "Like you I was forced to learn there are those without decency who must be fought without hesitation. Without pity". Ra's equates himself to Bruce's situation in how his anger nearly destroyed him, too. This set him on his path.

He suffered a terrible injustice by losing someone he loved just like Bruce did. We know how he came to be a crusader for justice and why he has the beliefs he does.

The Joker's scar stories tell the same message; something terrible happened to him that pushed him over the edge. I think when he says "Do you want to know how I got these scars?" he's saying "Do you want to know how I became the Joker?". Why else would he adopt a clown look and say "Now I see the funny side. Now I'm always smiling". His scars are the big perma smile he's always wearing as a product of something terrible that happened to him. By trying to push Gotham's people over the edge he is trying to show that deep down they're just like him when he was pushed too far.

The multiple stories was a nod to The Killing Joke, which as I'm sure you know also played on the idea that the bad day Joker had in his past was what made him the way he is, and he believed everyone was susceptible to the same thing. Heath Ledger himself said TKJ was handed to him to read as part of his prep for the role;

The Killing Joke is the one that was handed to me. It's really good. So I think [the film] is obviously going to be a bit [about] the beginning of the Joker. I guess [The Killing Joke] explains a little bit of where he's from, but not too much. From what I've gathered, there isn't a lot of information about the Joker and it's kind of left that way."

http://ie.ign.com/articles/2006/11/0...er-talks-joker

Most of Joker's scheme in TDK is a love letter to Joker's twisted experiment on Jim Gordon in TKJ.



Batman essentially says the same thing to Joker when the ferries don't blow up; "What were you trying to prove, that deep down everyone's as ugly as you? You're alone". You could consider Harvey Dent the Jim Gordon of the story in terms of Joker trying to prove someone really good can be broken, only in TDK's case Joker succeeded, whereas in TKJ he failed to break Gordon.

So as you can see we get all of this regarding the Joker and Ra's, but what insight at all in TDKR are we given as to why Bane is sold on all the beliefs of the LOS, about the wealthy, about anything he says other than it's just false hope propaganda to poison Gotham.

[Anno_Domini]

I find all three villains perfect in their respective films and well developed, but obviously Joker is the best villain of the trilogy and Bane, imo, is second.

[DACrowe]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

I agree. While I think Nolan left the audience with a bit more work to do in terms of understanding Bane as opposed to previous villains, there isn't anything in the film that would lead me believe that Bane is someone who would be putting on a performance when he's only speaking to Bruce Wayne. Just because we learn of Talia's importance at the end of the film, I don't see how this negates the conviction that we get to see in his more intimate moments in the film.

That all said, this is a very level-headed debate on both sides, and that's always great to see.

I actually think the way he speaks to Bruce in that scene, which is very intimate and less menacing (until the end) and more confessional, tells me he actually thinks this is a horrible fate for both Bruce and Gotham. After seeing the film, I kind of took it that if he had it his way, he would have just killed Batman in the sewers and blown up Gotham as soon as the opportunity arose. The whole torturing your soul thing seems to be something he believes--it happened to him all his life before leaving the Pit--but something he finds excessive.

I don't know. Just a thought.

[DACrowe]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

I agree. While I think Nolan left the audience with a bit more work to do in terms of understanding Bane as opposed to previous villains, there isn't anything in the film that would lead me believe that Bane is someone who would be putting on a performance when he's only speaking to Bruce Wayne. Just because we learn of Talia's importance at the end of the film, I don't see how this negates the conviction that we get to see in his more intimate moments in the film.

That all said, this is a very level-headed debate on both sides, and that's always great to see.

I actually think the way he speaks to Bruce in that scene, which is very intimate and less menacing (until the end) and more confessional, tells me he actually thinks this is a horrible fate for both Bruce and Gotham. After seeing the film, I kind of took it that if he had it his way, he would have just killed Batman in the sewers and blown up Gotham as soon as the opportunity arose. The whole torturing your soul thing seems to be something he believes--it happened to him all his life before leaving the Pit--but something he finds excessive.

I don't know. Just a thought.

[TheBat812]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Because he says he's going to feed Gotham false hope. False as in what he's saying isn't true and he's telling them a bunch of stuff they want to hear. So his pretty speeches to them is nothing but lies to get their hopes up of getting their city back. Outside of this phony public propaganda we never once hear Bane speak on a personal level about any of the LOS beliefs.

He never says false hope, he just says "So, as I terrorize Gotham, I will feed its people hope to poison their souls."

To him, he knew Bruce thought he was the one who could be the hero for Gotham, and by breaking him, he's taken away the only symbol of hope they still cling to. They're all praying for Batman to come save the day, but he can't because he's been broken. Or so Bane thinks. Also, his speeches are more devastating because they ARE true. That's exactly the point of the police rising up and taking back control of their city at the end. "There's only one police in this town!"



DACrowe, I agree. There was definitely some sense of resentment for Bruce's betrayal, but I think Bane would have simply killed him instead of just breaking him. He's definitely portrayed as a "just-let-me-kill-you-and-get-out-of-my-way" kind of guy.

[uniqueweasel]

Contrary to the well argued points on here, I still don't see Bane as this Intellectual mastermind, sure he's no meathead neanderthal, but is far from a mastermind.

[BatmanBeyond]

Originally Posted by The Joker

As I do with you. But I'm more a creature of fact (not that I don't enjoy some personal interpretation because I've done it myself with BB and TDK) when it comes to Nolan's movies because I know his style with the villains in the Batman movies, is to be so literal about their motives. He doesn't go for subtly.

The moment Talia starts to monologue and filling in all those blanks about the bits and pieces we were given all through the movie about the story of Bane and the pit and his tie to the LOS, you know this is Nolan's moment where he's spelling out the real story behind the whole LOS return. Namely her.

First time I saw the movie, I really thought the Talia reveal took much from Bane as a villain, maybe because that's exactly how it comes off as in that particular moment or maybe because I was riding the wave of skepticism regarding that particular aspect of the movie.

But when you stop and think about, you realise that Bane and Talia were, for all intents and purposes, equal partners. Bane would've certainely never been able to infiltrate Wayne Enterprises as efficiently as she did, and Talia would've never been able to own Batman's ass in a fight so utterly and completely. Talia's story also adds another layer to Bane's character: you realise that this ruthless mother****er actually does have a heart and a sense of honor as well. You can even make a parallel (as someone did a while ago on these forums) between Batman's line to Gordon ('Anyone can be a hero...') and what Bane did for Talia. I don't think that's merely coincidence.

It's also interesting to note that both Bane and Talia represent what Bruce could've become had he accepted to lead the LoS into Gotham back in BB. You've got Talia/Miranda, who's an influential member of the Wayne board (just like Bruce was) and then you've got Bane's physicality, fighting skills and leadership qualities.

Originally Posted by DACrowe

I actually think the way he speaks to Bruce in that scene, which is very intimate and less menacing (until the end) and more confessional, tells me he actually thinks this is a horrible fate for both Bruce and Gotham. After seeing the film, I kind of took it that if he had it his way, he would have just killed Batman in the sewers and blown up Gotham as soon as the opportunity arose. The whole torturing your soul thing seems to be something he believes--it happened to him all his life before leaving the Pit--but something he finds excessive.

I don't know. Just a thought.

Interesting way of looking at that scene, I've never thought of it this way. I always found Bane's expressions during that scene to be interesting though, like he's almost pitying Bruce and Gotham for the fate that awaits them.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

That all said, this is a very level-headed debate on both sides, and that's always great to see.

Quote for truth. Its great when people can hash this stuff out and be civil about it at the same time. There is nothing worse when someone either just praises every little thing that TDKR did or slams it completely. I have a lot of gripes against TDKR, but at the same time there were moments that I did really enjoy. Every film has its strengths and flaws and its up to the viewer to make their own opinion.

[Eros]

Originally Posted by uniqueweasel

Contrary to the well argued points on here, I still don't see Bane as this Intellectual mastermind, sure he's no meathead neanderthal, but is far from a mastermind.

I agree, Hes an educated brute, nothing more.

[Schrute]

All I meant earlier was that I don't think you are going to find many people who dislike TDK because we don't see Joker escaping the Penthouse, or how he rigged an entire hospital to blow, or other reasons.

Compare that with TDKR. I think, at least on this site alone, you can find people who don't really like the film or think it is the worst of the trilogy and specify specific scenes like the doctor healing Bruce, Bruce getting back into Gotham somehow with no money, Talia's death scene, and others.

Sure, you can suspend belief for all 3 films and I'm not arguing that, I wish I could have more for TDKR. But for some of these scenes I was just taken out of the movie completely which doesn't happen during the other 2. I just believe criticism over certain scenes in TDKR is more valid than BB and TDK in regards to people not actually liking the film because of those scenes.

I don't think it is the same to ask why people are not complaining about how Joker rigged the entire hospital to blow when people ask how did Bruce, with no money and in another country, get back into a Gotham that was under siege and find Selina.

This of course is all my opinion.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Schrute

All I meant earlier was that I don't think you are going to find many people who dislike TDK because we don't see Joker escaping the Penthouse, or how he rigged an entire hospital to blow, or other reasons.

Compare that with TDKR. I think, at least on this site alone, you can find people who don't really like the film or think it is the worst of the trilogy and specify specific scenes like the doctor healing Bruce, Bruce getting back into Gotham somehow with no money, Talia's death scene, and others.

Sure, you can suspend belief for all 3 films and I'm not arguing that, I wish I could have more for TDKR. But for some of these scenes I was just taken out of the movie completely which doesn't happen during the other 2. I just believe criticism over certain scenes in TDKR is more valid than BB and TDK in regards to people not actually liking the film because of those scenes.

I don't think it is the same to ask why people are not complaining about how Joker rigged the entire hospital to blow when people ask how did Bruce, with no money and in another country, get back into a Gotham that was under siege and find Selina.

This of course is all my opinion.

I think for me personally, my problems with TDKR were more with what I saw then what I didn't see.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Schrute

All I meant earlier was that I don't think you are going to find many people who dislike TDK because we don't see Joker escaping the Penthouse, or how he rigged an entire hospital to blow, or other reasons.

Compare that with TDKR. I think, at least on this site alone, you can find people who don't really like the film or think it is the worst of the trilogy and specify specific scenes like the doctor healing Bruce, Bruce getting back into Gotham somehow with no money, Talia's death scene, and others.

Sure, you can suspend belief for all 3 films and I'm not arguing that, I wish I could have more for TDKR. But for some of these scenes I was just taken out of the movie completely which doesn't happen during the other 2. I just believe criticism over certain scenes in TDKR is more valid than BB and TDK in regards to people not actually liking the film because of those scenes.

I don't think it is the same to ask why people are not complaining about how Joker rigged the entire hospital to blow when people ask how did Bruce, with no money and in another country, get back into a Gotham that was under siege and find Selina.

This of course is all my opinion.

It's a shame no one brings up TDK's plot holes and only TDKR's.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Schrute

All I meant earlier was that I don't think you are going to find many people who dislike TDK because we don't see Joker escaping the Penthouse, or how he rigged an entire hospital to blow, or other reasons.

Compare that with TDKR. I think, at least on this site alone, you can find people who don't really like the film or think it is the worst of the trilogy and specify specific scenes like the doctor healing Bruce, Bruce getting back into Gotham somehow with no money, Talia's death scene, and others.

Sure, you can suspend belief for all 3 films and I'm not arguing that, I wish I could have more for TDKR. But for some of these scenes I was just taken out of the movie completely which doesn't happen during the other 2. I just believe criticism over certain scenes in TDKR is more valid than BB and TDK in regards to people not actually liking the film because of those scenes.

I don't think it is the same to ask why people are not complaining about how Joker rigged the entire hospital to blow when people ask how did Bruce, with no money and in another country, get back into a Gotham that was under siege and find Selina.

This of course is all my opinion.

Its a good opinion

[TheBat812]

Originally Posted by Schrute

All I meant earlier was that I don't think you are going to find many people who dislike TDK because we don't see Joker escaping the Penthouse, or how he rigged an entire hospital to blow, or other reasons.

If it's okay in one movie, why does it bug you the next, when it's the SAME ISSUES? Do you not see how bias of an opinion that is? Why does it ruin one movie for you, but then you completely ignore the same exact issues in another. That's a viewer issue, not Nolan's. I mean, it's completely fair to enjoy one more than the other for various reasons, but that is straight up ridiculous.

[TheBat812]

Originally Posted by uniqueweasel

Contrary to the well argued points on here, I still don't see Bane as this Intellectual mastermind, sure he's no meathead neanderthal, but is far from a mastermind.

Did you consider Joker to be an intellectual mastermind? Because the plan that Bane and Talia put in place is much more complicated to (nearly) pull off.

[Eros]

Originally Posted by TheBat812

Did you consider Joker to be an intellectual mastermind? Because the plan that Bane and Talia put in place is much more complicated to (nearly) pull off.

Bane put his enemy in a pit, left him doctor and a tv, and is surprised when batman escapes. Talia/Tate or whatever reveals herself only when Bane gets his ass kicked, but why did she continue the ruse months after her people had gotten everything in place? Bane was never actually in charge of anything, he was the muscle, albeit a very smart muscle.

[Anno_Domini]

I don't think having a doctor next to Bruce wasn't for purpose. Hell, the doctor barely spoke English to Bruce so I don't think the doctor was of any concern while trying to have Bruce suffer.

Talia, I'm sure, would've revealed herself long before all of the five month wait because she did ask Bruce to go with her in her plane, to leave Gotham City and go anywhere they wanted to. Talia could have very well flown to the Pit with Bruce and made the reveal that way besides Bruce having his back broken by Bane, but the reveal being placed as it was was probably set up since Bruce did return and that's why Talia ended up trying to detonate the bomb before the time ran out as that seemed like the plan before Bruce had returned: to keep Gotham at its bareness with martial law until the countdown went down to 0.

[uniqueweasel]

Originally Posted by TheBat812

Did you consider Joker to be an intellectual mastermind? Because the plan that Bane and Talia put in place is much more complicated to (nearly) pull off.

Not as such, he was a clever terrorist, who was good at playing on peoples weaknesses, but I will say the way the Joker bought Dent down was brilliant, and was way more psychologically superior. But Banes advantage lies in his revolutionary maverick appeal, giving his speeches and garnering support for his cause, intelligent in a different way, but far from a mastermind status. The only thing I could say is The Jokers plans were hs own, Bane had help from Talia to form theirs. But to be fair this thread shouldn't really be about Joker vs Bane again, like most of these threads turn into.

[Jaiden Edo]

Not at all, in my opinion. Being able to go toe to toe with Batman and manhandling him, makes Bane very special. Not many villains in Batman-verse, can do what Bane did to Bats, which makes him stand out from the rest.

Thank you, you're welcome.

[Eros]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

I don't think having a doctor next to Bruce wasn't for purpose. Hell, the doctor barely spoke English to Bruce so I don't think the doctor was of any concern while trying to have Bruce suffer.

Talia, I'm sure, would've revealed herself long before all of the five month wait because she did ask Bruce to go with her in her plane, to leave Gotham City and go anywhere they wanted to. Talia could have very well flown to the Pit with Bruce and made the reveal that way besides Bruce having his back broken by Bane, but the reveal being placed as it was was probably set up since Bruce did return and that's why Talia ended up trying to detonate the bomb before the time ran out as that seemed like the plan before Bruce had returned: to keep Gotham at its bareness with martial law until the countdown went down to 0.

You still haven't mentioned, why Talia kept up the ruse for 5 months? Or did she have no faith in Her partner Bane, and new Wayne would be Back? If she did have faith in bane, why didn't she reveal herself when Bane took bruce to the pit? Wat was the point of playing Miranda Tate till the very last 10 mins? Hell how did Bruce get back to Gotham? I don't think Nolan even knows, as he deliberately left that out and got really lazy at the end.

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

He got back to Gotham the same way he managed to trek around the world without being noticed in BB.

By maintaining her ruse, Talia could watch firsthand as Gotham proved itself unworthy of its continued existence. Plus Talia was running WE at that point; she probably needed to keep up appearances.

[Eros]

Originally Posted by Jaiden Edo

Not at all, in my opinion. Being able to go toe to toe with Batman and manhandling him, makes Bane very special. Not many villains in Batman-verse, can do what Bane did to Bats, which makes him stand out from the rest.

Thank you, you're welcome.

He Manhandled, a Batman who spent years in retirement,stopped training, and with no cartlidge in his Leg. Then He lost to the same Batman, who escaped a prison he never could escape, and recovering from having a broken back.

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

Keep in mind the same Batman knew to go for the tubes this time.