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Old 06-29-2013, 06:32 PM   #51
milost
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Default Re: The Dark Knight Rises Plot Holes

Dent's little party at the Penthouse? That's completely different. Rachel was their with him, Bruce's "oldest friend". Or am I just imagining that little speech he had (that even his "oldest friend" didn't find the least bit sincere)? You can easily say he threw it because Dent is his dear friend Rachel's boyfriend.

Wayne also had party for himself at Wayne Manor for all the elite, similar situation. And?

TDKR is telling us that an obnoxious, asinine, billionaire playboy (who created a persona so that nobody would ever deduce that he was Batman) went to an orphanage and visited the children. It wasn't Blake saying, "I saw you on TV man", it was, "St. Swithin's used to be funded by the Wayne Foundation . . . You showed up one day in a cool car, pretty girl on your arm, smilin', we were so excited".


That sort of ruins the whole idea of having a FACADE, doesn't it? Showing that you care. Going to orphans and RELATING to them?


Bruce Wayne has no reason to visit an orphanage as some kind of "orphan mascot", which is exactly what Blake alludes to, it's just silly. Look at Begins, look at The Dark Knight, look at those Gotham Tonight episodes, that's not something the smiling, self-obsessed playboy would do. Now I could see if they developed this in Begins or The Dark Knight, but they didn't. It's came out of no where.


It's also one of those cheap plot contrivances where they throw in a written event that the viewer has to take for granted and doesn't actually see. That is one, Alfred having that yearly visit to Italy looking for Bruce in Begins is another. That's just not natural story telling, it's not. You just don't have a random, undeveloped new comer come up and say "I know who you are because years and years ago, I saw it in your eyes and I feel it in your bones". It's just as bad as Spider-Man 3 with Bernard seeing Spider-Man laying down Norman and "cleaning the wounds from his glider" or "Sandman killing Uncle Ben during Spider-Man".

It's just cheap.



A plot hole is an inconsistency that goes against logic, Bruce Wayne, Billionare Playboy, visiting little orphan Annie's at the miraculous St. Swithin's? Please. It's just wrong. Now I'm sure Wayne has a soft spot for orphans considering he is one but that just reeks to me that he'd do it publicly like . . . visiting them.



Hell, now that I think about it. That might actually have been cool to see if the film SHOWED us a philanthropic Bruce instead of saying "oh, he did this one time, he also helped make a clean energy orb a few years ago". Do you see what I'm getting at? Had that actually been part of the character in the plot, actively showing this and developing it, it would have been brilliant. Maybe have the "playboy" facade slowly die away and he starts becoming more and more like his father Thomas Wayne(since Batman is useless). THAT is compelling. But nope. I mean, it's not enough to completely negate and demolish any need for Batman and ruin that archetype. They do it to Bruce Wayne too!


If Nolan wanted to make a Howard Hughes flick (which he had been wanting to do since 2004), then he should have made a Howard Hughes flick. Not impose itself blatantly on Batman.


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Old 06-29-2013, 09:24 PM   #52
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Default Re: The Dark Knight Rises Plot Holes

Your numerous spaces to make a long wall of text doesn't make your replies sound any better or more in-depth, hope you know that.

You don't understand, it seems, that Bruce had that party solely because of Dent, not because of Rachel. You read too much into things as much as you tell others how "wrong" they do with TDKR, lol. And even then he still has that facade of coming into the party with three women with him.

And THAT is why I can be totally fine that Bruce would visit an orphanage; something else that means so much to Bruce but he would still have to play with this facade of him and bring in tow some woman for his date.

Again, sorry you think it's cheap plot convenience...but it's not

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Old 06-29-2013, 09:28 PM   #53
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Default Re: The Dark Knight Rises Plot Holes

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Appear in an orphanage with two girls means he arrived there with the press. It's all part of his show.
There is nothing wrong with that. He may have arrived pretending a fake smile, so everyone thinks Bruce is pretending to care.
And as mentioned above, he had a party for Harvey Dent. Ah, he arrived in helicopter with three girls.
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Old 06-29-2013, 10:25 PM   #54
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Default Re: The Dark Knight Rises Plot Holes

I don't see what the debate is here re: the whole facade thing. Bruce was clearly letting the facade drop a bit when he made that toast to Harvey at the fundraiser. That's one of Bale's best moments in the film, when he says "I believe in Harvey Dent" and you see that it's the real Bruce coming through.

As for the Blake thing, in Blake's story he mentions that Bruce had a pretty girl on his arm so he was still making an appearance as "playboy Bruce". Out of all the off-screen things that we're expected to believe Bruce did over the course of all three movies, I truly do not have much trouble buying that he'd do something like visit an orphanage as long as he was holding up his playboy veneer (or trying to anyway). In fact him going to an orphanage acknowledges the elephant in the room: that he himself is an orphan with a huge publicly known tragedy in his past. Not acknowledging that at all might be seen as a bit strange.

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Old 06-29-2013, 10:30 PM   #55
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Default Re: The Dark Knight Rises Plot Holes

That's the thing though.

For the Dent party/fundraiser, Milost believes Bruce did it all for Rachel while keeping up this facade of being a prick.

For visiting an orphanage, Milost believes it's not consistent to Bruce.

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Old 06-29-2013, 10:41 PM   #56
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Default Re: The Dark Knight Rises Plot Holes

Bruce didn't do it all for Rachel, that's just flat out untrue. Bruce blatantly tells Alfred that's not the case, and in case Bale's performance at the fundraiser doesn't give it away, he tells Rachel in the very next scene that he meant every word and that he believes Gotham needs a hero with a face.

The great thing about TDK is that while there is sort of a love triangle there, it's not something that's overly played up. I hope milost isn't suggesting that the sole reason for Bruce supporting Dent is to hang up the cape and take his girl. Sure that element might be there in some level, but it's a huge disservice to Bruce's character to suggest he is anything less than sincere in his belief that Dent is what Gotham truly needs. Doesn't matter if Dent buys his sincerity or not.

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Old 06-29-2013, 11:22 PM   #57
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Default Re: The Dark Knight Rises Plot Holes

The sincerity in Bruce's eyes when he says "I believe in Harvey Dent", yep, you gotta love that.


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Old 06-30-2013, 01:54 AM   #58
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I hope milost isn't suggesting that the sole reason for Bruce supporting Dent is to hang up the cape and take his girl. Sure that element might be there in some level, but it's a huge disservice to Bruce's character to suggest he is anything less than sincere in his belief that Dent is what Gotham truly needs. Doesn't matter if Dent buys his sincerity or not.
Nope, just stated that it would appear that way to other people.

"You can easily say he threw it because Dent is his dear friend Rachel's boyfriend." - That's what I posted.

He threw the fundraiser for Dent, while he was originally apprehensive and suspicious of him, at the restaurant he bought into his character (hence the party at his Penthouse).

All I was saying is that, to those around him, it could have easily been chalked up as, "hey, Rachel is Bruce Wayne's pal, Dent is Rachel's squeeze, that's why he through this super elite party". That's all I was stating. It seems a lot more "in character" than going to an orphanage because you have Rachel as a tie, that's all.

As for the sincerity of Bruce Wayne's speech about Dent, I definitely bought into what he was saying. It was sincere (would have been nice if they included that wine glass toast footage). BUT, to others it could come off as being insincere because of where it's coming from (the facade). Rachel, Bruce's oldest, closest childhood friend didn't buy the speech and even thought Bruce's intent was mocking him. She says as much. If his BEST friend thinks that, what are others going to think? Even Dent still thinks that, "Wayne? The guy's a fff . . . ". See we're I'm coming from?


I hope we're clear there.

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Old 06-30-2013, 01:55 AM   #59
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Default Re: The Dark Knight Rises Plot Holes

No one would think that when Bruce was sincere in saying he believed in Dent as well as the last moments of their dinner.

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Old 06-30-2013, 07:53 AM   #60
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Default Re: The Dark Knight Rises Plot Holes

@milost Okay, that's what I figured. Still, I don't see why it matters that Rachel didn't believe the speech. The point being made here is that TDK established precedent for Bruce to use the playboy persona to further a cause he believes in, even letting a little idealism slip through.

I think it's realistic that he would associate with the charitable work of his own company. I'm sure most cynical people in Gotham would think he just visited St. Swithin's as a PR move, if the story did make the papers and tabloids.

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Old 06-30-2013, 08:07 AM   #61
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Dent's little party at the Penthouse? That's completely different. Rachel was their with him, Bruce's "oldest friend". Or am I just imagining that little speech he had (that even his "oldest friend" didn't find the least bit sincere)? You can easily say he threw it because Dent is his dear friend Rachel's boyfriend.

Wayne also had party for himself at Wayne Manor for all the elite, similar situation. And?

TDKR is telling us that an obnoxious, asinine, billionaire playboy (who created a persona so that nobody would ever deduce that he was Batman) went to an orphanage and visited the children. It wasn't Blake saying, "I saw you on TV man", it was, "St. Swithin's used to be funded by the Wayne Foundation . . . You showed up one day in a cool car, pretty girl on your arm, smilin', we were so excited".


That sort of ruins the whole idea of having a FACADE, doesn't it? Showing that you care. Going to orphans and RELATING to them?


Bruce Wayne has no reason to visit an orphanage as some kind of "orphan mascot", which is exactly what Blake alludes to, it's just silly. Look at Begins, look at The Dark Knight, look at those Gotham Tonight episodes, that's not something the smiling, self-obsessed playboy would do. Now I could see if they developed this in Begins or The Dark Knight, but they didn't. It's came out of no where.


It's also one of those cheap plot contrivances where they throw in a written event that the viewer has to take for granted and doesn't actually see. That is one, Alfred having that yearly visit to Italy looking for Bruce in Begins is another. That's just not natural story telling, it's not. You just don't have a random, undeveloped new comer come up and say "I know who you are because years and years ago, I saw it in your eyes and I feel it in your bones". It's just as bad as Spider-Man 3 with Bernard seeing Spider-Man laying down Norman and "cleaning the wounds from his glider" or "Sandman killing Uncle Ben during Spider-Man".

It's just cheap.



A plot hole is an inconsistency that goes against logic, Bruce Wayne, Billionare Playboy, visiting little orphan Annie's at the miraculous St. Swithin's? Please. It's just wrong. Now I'm sure Wayne has a soft spot for orphans considering he is one but that just reeks to me that he'd do it publicly like . . . visiting them.



Hell, now that I think about it. That might actually have been cool to see if the film SHOWED us a philanthropic Bruce instead of saying "oh, he did this one time, he also helped make a clean energy orb a few years ago". Do you see what I'm getting at? Had that actually been part of the character in the plot, actively showing this and developing it, it would have been brilliant. Maybe have the "playboy" facade slowly die away and he starts becoming more and more like his father Thomas Wayne(since Batman is useless). THAT is compelling. But nope. I mean, it's not enough to completely negate and demolish any need for Batman and ruin that archetype. They do it to Bruce Wayne too!


If Nolan wanted to make a Howard Hughes flick (which he had been wanting to do since 2004), then he should have made a Howard Hughes flick. Not impose itself blatantly on Batman.
Excellent post

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Old 07-01-2013, 01:20 PM   #62
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Default Re: The Dark Knight Rises Plot Holes

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A plot hole is an inconsistency that goes against logic, Bruce Wayne, Billionare Playboy, visiting little orphan Annie's at the miraculous St. Swithin's? Please. It's just wrong. Now I'm sure Wayne has a soft spot for orphans considering he is one but that just reeks to me that he'd do it publicly like . . . visiting them.
It would be a plot hole if the word "playboy" implied someone who doesnīt care about anybody else, wich is not the case. Iīm pretty sure someone can be a playboy and still do some good for other people.

You donīt know what a plot hole is. Surprisingly, you also donīt know what logic means.

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Old 07-01-2013, 04:03 PM   #63
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Default Re: The Dark Knight Rises Plot Holes

I think TDKR has less plot holes, and more along the lines of cheap, contrived writing that just wasn't thought through much.

Bah.

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Old 07-01-2013, 04:49 PM   #64
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I think TDKR has less plot holes, and more along the lines of cheap, contrived writing that just wasn't thought through much.

Bah.
TDKR has actually a much richer plot than any of the other super hero movies we are used to, like Spider man, avengers and iron man.

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Old 07-01-2013, 05:38 PM   #65
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Default Re: The Dark Knight Rises Plot Holes

Every story has contrivances that could be seen as overly convenient if put under the same scrutiny as TDKR has been. TDK being a prime example of that (it is positively chock-full of narrative shortcuts, particularly the damn-near omniscience The Joker has over the plot of the film). What matters is whether one appreciates the resulting story that's being told with the help of all these contrivances and conceits. Because if you're truly enjoying the narrative as it unfolds (and find that it retains its value on repeat viewings), then in retrospect, a lot of those choices may be seen as ultimately necessary cogs in the wheels of the film's plot.

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Old 07-01-2013, 11:01 PM   #66
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Its less an issue of contrivance, and more an issue of the actual quality of the execution of that. So much of the writing feels forced, and downright silly. And since it's combined with writing that is actually quite good, it feels very jarring and inconsistent.

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TDKR has actually a much richer plot than any of the other super hero movies we are used to, like Spider man, avengers and iron man.
I don't disagree. There's a lot of good mixed with a few really awful elements.

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Old 07-02-2013, 01:26 AM   #67
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I don't disagree. There's a lot of good mixed with a few really awful elements.
Like in most movies. Even in the great ones.

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Old 07-02-2013, 10:55 AM   #68
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Like in most movies. Even in the great ones.
That's completely untrue. Rises' flaws are almost even steven with it's good parts. Most movies do not fall into that category.

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Old 07-02-2013, 11:23 AM   #69
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This was the only film where plot holes actually affected my score lol...

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Old 07-03-2013, 02:12 AM   #70
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Ehhh, I feel that TDKR has as many flaws as TDK does, but yet it's hilariously sad that TDK's plot holes get looked over so much.

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Old 07-03-2013, 11:05 AM   #71
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That's completely untrue. Rises' flaws are almost even steven with it's good parts. Most movies do not fall into that category.
You're too kind

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Old 07-03-2013, 01:32 PM   #72
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To me, the whole "using stolen fingerprints to falsify stock trades by a group of men with guns" was plot hole; it just seemed illogical that ANY trades that day would be accepted, I mean the building is surrounded by cops and filled with armed men...and a billionaire decides at that point to make a bunch of really bad stock decisions?
Even in the film they explain this one

Some people just need to pay more attention when watching a film.

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Old 07-03-2013, 02:32 PM   #73
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Why did all the bad guys hit batman instead of shooting him? How the F*** did batman escape a nuclear blast?

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Old 07-03-2013, 02:54 PM   #74
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Why did all the bad guys hit batman instead of shooting him? How the F*** did batman escape a nuclear blast?
Because they went to the Imperial Academy. The same reason that bullets rarely hit protagonists. They're either going to miss or not shoot 99% of the time (more often they just miss a lot) in every action movie. Plus, there are loads of times where the thugs shoot at them instead of trying to hit them.

Auto pilot. Rewatch the scene where he's flying over the bay. They cut to Batman inside the Bat. There are shadows and breaks of light across his face, the same pattern that you'd get when flying between buildings, you're not going to get that flying over open water. It's an editing trick. He wasn't in The Bat when it went over the bat.

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Old 07-03-2013, 04:05 PM   #75
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Auto pilot. Rewatch the scene where he's flying over the bay. They cut to Batman inside the Bat. There are shadows and breaks of light across his face, the same pattern that you'd get when flying between buildings, you're not going to get that flying over open water. It's an editing trick. He wasn't in The Bat when it went over the bat.
Yea but there was very little time left on the bomb, like even if they were outside the blast radius then the radiation would kill them...

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