Is it time for Frank Castle to punish Iraq instead of Nam?

[Optimus_Prime_]

It's long accepted in Frank's canon that he was scarred due to his involvement in the horrendous Vietnam War. It's considered one of the main aspects of his character.

But let's face it Iraq and Afghanistan really sucked too, especially as they escalated.

Is it time Marvel Now canonically updates this? Or are they planning to? It seems obvious to me. Vietnam is getting too long ago.

[hippie_hunter]

I used to think that way until they already took care of the issue in Remender's run on the character. There really is no need to change it for the time being when they gave him a canonical de-aging.

[Quasimod0]

How'd he get de aged?

[Anubis]

Got cut up into chunks by Wolvie's kid, walked around as an undead monster called FrankenCastle, then I would assume he got reborn in another, younger body at some point after everybody realized that whole thing was effin' stupid.

[hippie_hunter]

Ignore that last part because FrankenCastle was effin' awesome. But what happened was that after Norman Osborn ordered Daken to kill Wolverine, he was brought back to life as a Frankenstein monster where he fought alongside the Legion of Monsters to protect them from a bunch of monster hunters. It was awesome. Then in the end using the power of the Bloodstone, Frank was restored as a proper human which also gave him the benefit of having the body of a 35 year old man as opposed to returning to the body of a 60 year old man.

[Anubis]

Which was redundant because almost the same thing happened after he died, became a hitman for God, then got his life back.

[CrimsonMist]

Didn't Rucka update it? Issue 4 has that flashback in the beginning and Frank is clearly not in Vietnam.

[Quasimod0]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

Ignore that last part because FrankenCastle was effin' awesome. But what happened was that after Norman Osborn ordered Daken to kill Wolverine, he was brought back to life as a Frankenstein monster where he fought alongside the Legion of Monsters to protect them from a bunch of monster hunters. It was awesome. Then in the end using the power of the Bloodstone, Frank was restored as a proper human which also gave him the benefit of having the body of a 35 year old man as opposed to returning to the body of a 60 year old man.

Ok thanks. I knew about frankencastle but not how he got back to normal. Is ruckas run on punisher worth reading?

[Anubis]

It's supposed to be tits on a fish.

[hippie_hunter]

Rucka's run on the character is amazing.

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by CrimsonMist

Didn't Rucka update it? Issue 4 has that flashback in the beginning and Frank is clearly not in Vietnam.

Rucka has updated Frank to be set in the Middle East as opposed to Vietnam claiming that his editor wanted to de-age him, despite the fact that he had already been de-aged. However, considering Rucka's relationship with Marvel right now, who knows if they'll continue with that route.

And with Daniel Way now in control of the character in Thunderbolts, I think it'll be more likely that the Vietnam origin will remain. And with the way the Punisher has been written and drawn in Way's Thunderbolts series, it looks like Vietnam is back. If you look at his Deadpool run, Way has a tendency to just ignore minor things like character changes and progression that happened over the years and write them as if they're the same character that they first appeared as.

[Anubis]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

Rucka's run on the character is amazing.

Yeah, that's what I said. Tits on a fish.

[The Infernal]

Updating Punisher's back story could be good for making it relevant to the modern day and de-aging him for Marvel Now. However keeping it Vietnam and keeping him older gives a different spin to the character. Having an aging Punisher could be a good angle to play with.

[runawayboulder]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

Ignore that last part because FrankenCastle was effin' awesome. But what happened was that after Norman Osborn ordered Daken to kill Wolverine, he was brought back to life as a Frankenstein monster where he fought alongside the Legion of Monsters to protect them from a bunch of monster hunters. It was awesome. Then in the end using the power of the Bloodstone, Frank was restored as a proper human which also gave him the benefit of having the body of a 35 year old man as opposed to returning to the body of a 60 year old man.

THIS. Anibus is just a freaking hater.

[ObakeTora]

Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime_

It's long accepted in Frank's canon that he was scarred due to his involvement in the horrendous Vietnam War. It's considered one of the main aspects of his character.

But let's face it Iraq and Afghanistan really sucked too, especially as they escalated.

Is it time Marvel Now canonically updates this? Or are they planning to? It seems obvious to me. Vietnam is getting too long ago.

Hell no.



In that case update Captain America to some other war, both characters are historically linked to those conflicts, the image will never change. Frank will always be associated with Vietnam, and will always be the image of a war that cost America's innocence. If they needed to find someone to represent Iraq or Afghanistah find another man to be the next war icon maybe resurrect Carlos Cruze.





But leave Frank's alone!!

[chamber-music]

I think the Vietnam was suits The Punisher more in a way. Nam was a totally different kind of conflict than the Gulf War, Iraq Invasion or Afghan conflict.

Vietnam has the association of being a more of a grim, hands on and brutal conflict than the more recent wars have which seems to fit more with Franks character.

Originally Posted by The Infernal

Updating Punisher's back story could be good for making it relevant to the modern day and de-aging him for Marvel Now. However keeping it Vietnam and keeping him older gives a different spin to the character. Having an aging Punisher could be a good angle to play with.

Marvel have been doing the aging Punisher thing since the 1980s.
The Punisher has been saying I'm too old for this or my knees ache, bones sore, ect since stuff like circle of blood in the mid 80s.

Punisher Max was basically old man Frank Castle. A 60 year old vietnam vet Punisher with a Clint Eastwood likeness.

Rucka's Punisher is actually first time I've seen him potrayed as a younger 30 something man.

[chamber-music]

I've always felt the psychology of the Punisher is one of the most intresting aspects of the character.

Writers have done a fantastic job of explaining why Frank is the way he is and does the things he does in recent years.

From the childhood stuff of Frank wanting to become a catholic priest but being unable to forgive sinners, the post traumatic stress disorder and violence of nam, his disbelief in the justice system and the death of his family.

I liked the idea that the death of franks family isn't why he became the punisher it was just an excuse for him to return to killing and continuing waging war. Franks family is the only thing that tied him to normal society.

[runawayboulder]

Originally Posted by chamber-music

Marvel have been doing the aging Punisher thing since the 1980s.
The Punisher has been saying I'm too old for this or my knees ache, bones sore, ect since stuff like circle of blood in the mid 80s.

Punisher Max was basically old man Frank Castle. A 60 year old vietnam vet Punisher with a Clint Eastwood likeness.

Rucka's Punisher is actually first time I've seen him portrayed as a younger 30 something man.

Like HH stated earlier, that was Remender using the Bloodstone to hit the soft reset button on his body. His little parting gift to the Punisher fanbase. So now it's "feasible" for Frank to be a Vietnam vet.

[Shockdingo]

I'm just a bit confused as to whether that's still the case though? In Nora's flashback/cover story on him in the Rucka issues, it seems like it was Iraq, but everything that happened to Frank still happened; like the Daredevil story they updated in this run. So I'm not sure whether Rucka just moved his history forward, or they intentionally went ambiguous and just went forward with the story.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

I used to think that way until they already took care of the issue in Remender's run on the character. There really is no need to change it for the time being when they gave him a canonical de-aging.

FrankenCastle was loads of fun.

I do prefer setting him in a more modern setting rather than simply de-aging him, especially since he's human. Magneto bothers me less since his de-aging happened a long while back and he's a mutant so his powers can be tweaked to explain this or that.

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime_

FrankenCastle was loads of fun.

I do prefer setting him in a more modern setting rather than simply de-aging him, especially since he's human. Magneto bothers me less since his de-aging happened a long while back and he's a mutant so his powers can be tweaked to explain this or that.

By de-aging him you get to keep in tact the Ennis run on the Punisher where he's been active for at least 30 years. And the Vietnam angle is such an important part of Frank's character. Having him set in Iraq just horribly tames him since the war only lasted for such a short while and the ambiguity surrounding the war is less prominent. Plus we've already updated Tony Stark to being captured in an Afghanistan-esque country as opposed to Vietnam, let's keep at least one Vietnam War setting. De-aging is the best of both worlds, the Punisher is no longer an old man and he gets to keep his history in tact. Also in a world like the Marvel Universe where there is all sorts of mystical **** going on, it really isn't far-fetched to have the Punisher encounter a mystical threat every so often.

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by Anubis

Which was redundant because almost the same thing happened after he died, became a hitman for God, then got his life back.

But then Ennis' run happened which restored Frank as a man in his 50's. I think it's pretty clear that Marvel ignores the 4 issue miniseries where the Punisher is a supernatural agent of vengeance.

[Anubis]

He was always in his 50's, he was just in a younger body. Same way Cap is in his 80's. Take a look at those pages up top. He don't look 50 to me.

Plus Ennis even referenced it in his Welcome Back Frank opening.

[Shockdingo]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

De-aging is the best of both worlds, the Punisher is no longer an old man and he gets to keep his history in tact. Also in a world like the Marvel Universe where there is all sorts of mystical **** going on, it really isn't far-fetched to have the Punisher encounter a mystical threat every so often.

Agreed, part of the problems with the Iraq update is it really cuts down on his tortured past and makes things too new. You have to go backward and retcon or invalidate so many of his past encounters. Plus, as many have said, 'Nam was just so horrible and ugly in the actual war and the after effects. All that defines Frank. It's better to de-age him or keep the question swimming around on "How can he still be doing his thing? Ah, comics I guess." than to move up his history and truncate some important factors.

[chamber-music]

Originally Posted by ObakeTora

Hell no.

Isn't that Burt Kenyon aka Hitman the villain version of the punisher?