Is it time for Frank Castle to punish Iraq instead of Nam?

[MilkmanDan]

Originally Posted by Shockdingo

Mark me down for a supporter of the Infinity formula. It still keeps Frank the "normal guy" of the MU without giving him too much of a boos that the super soldier serum would give.

I don't know. I think even Infinity Formula would hurt his status as a badass normal. And all that mystical stuff is even worse. I don't mind Frank dealing with supernatural aspects of MU on occasion, but that's it. I think keeping his service records vague is the best choice. Just say he was involved in black ops with Green Berets or something. That could easily mean he has years of experience in jungle/guerilla warfare.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by MilkmanDan

I don't know. I think even Infinity Formula would hurt his status as a badass normal. And all that mystical stuff is even worse. I don't mind Frank dealing with supernatural aspects of MU on occasion, but that's it. I think keeping his service records vague is the best choice. Just say he was involved in black ops with Green Berets or something. That could easily mean he has years of experience in jungle/guerilla warfare.

I agree. I wish for him to stay firmly away from the "powers" department.

He's very much the Marvel Batman, imo, as him being normal human is so central to his character.

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by MilkmanDan

I don't know. I think even Infinity Formula would hurt his status as a badass normal. And all that mystical stuff is even worse. I don't mind Frank dealing with supernatural aspects of MU on occasion, but that's it. I think keeping his service records vague is the best choice. Just say he was involved in black ops with Green Berets or something. That could easily mean he has years of experience in jungle/guerilla warfare.

Nick Fury has used the Infinity Formula and yet we consider him to be a normal badass. Hell even Ennis recognized him in his run while he tried to ignore as many other superheroes as possible.

[Shockdingo]

I'd like to keep him au natural, but the reason I like the infinity serum treatment is it doesn't have any supremely drastic boosts other than the age slow down (I think there's some minor boosts, but nothing excessive like a healing factor). If you gave him a super soldier serum or something like that, it would drastically alter Frank's normal badass nature and catapult him into a much higher level. The IS is a lot more subtle and can take care of all the nagging age questions without having to forcibly remove the 'Nam backstory. That's just my $0.02 and pocket lint on that.

[cthulhu]

Yeah - it would certainly be better than him discovering he was a mutant or something like that.

[Shockdingo]

"I'm a late bloomer!" *snkit* "SWEET!" *series canceled immediately*

[MilkmanDan]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

Nick Fury has used the Infinity Formula and yet we consider him to be a normal badass. Hell even Ennis recognized him in his run while he tried to ignore as many other superheroes as possible.

True, but I think that's in part because they rarely refer to his WWII past. Making a big deal out of Frank's involment in Vietnam makes his unnatural aging more noticeable. I'd still be fine with the idea of Frank serving in nasty, but unspecified conflicts in places like South America or Africa, instead of being tied to one particular war.

[roach]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

Except it is quite different. Very different.

In Vietnam, soldiers had to deal with not knowing who the enemy is, being ambushed by the enemy, were in a far more combative state, the United States was the aggressive power and the sides were morally grey, tens of thousands of American solders died, and there was no end in sight for the war.

With Iraq on the other hand, there were relatively few casualties, the United States was a liberating power and there was a clear bad guy (Saddam Hussein), the Iraqis were easily defeated and they weren't ambushing American soldiers, most troops didn't even see any combat, and American tanks essentially just rolled in, liberated Kuwait as heroes, and went straight back home.

To sum it all up: BIG ****ING DIFFERENCE! The Persian Gulf War in the 90's just wouldn't give Frank the trauma that Vietnam created. Being ambushed by the Viet Cong is vastly different than rolling up in a tank to the Iraqis surrendering with barely a fight. Not knowing who your enemy is in Vietnam is vastly different than being greeted as a liberator for freeing a conquered nation. Not knowing if you're going to make it back home is vastly different than being bored in a base in Saudi Arabia. And yes, war does change. The ways to fight a war change all the time and it's constantly evolving. Combat tactics have changed, fighting styles have changed, the missions have changed. Everything has changed. If war didn't change, we'd still be lining up in straight lines like we did back in the Revolutionary War.

And honestly, it would make more sense to update the origins of the more realistic MAX Punisher as opposed to the 616 Punisher who lives in a world filled with gods, magicians, demons, mutants, aliens, etc. The 616 Punisher does not live in a realistic world, therefore it would make more sense to have him deal with unrealistic situations because that's the world he lives in. It just doesn't make any sense to put the realism filters on just one character in a universe that isn't realistic to begin with. Even Greg Rucka acknowledges that in his run on the Punisher.

While I agree that Punisher's origin shouldn't be touched I think your assessments of the wars are a little skewed. Yes war is a terrible thing. But Iraq isn't/wasnt the cake walk you make it out to be. We found an insurgency that took many lives. We didnt know who was the enemy and who was a friend. We faced an enemy that would gladly blow themselves up with us. Many who went to Iraq didnt know if they were coming back and when they did they got a short turn around and was sent back. Many people who went to Iraq and Afghanistan were fine and became troubled because of what they saw. Watch Restrepo and tell me they had it easy or were sitting at a base bored.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by roach

While I agree that Punisher's origin shouldn't be touched I think your assessments of the wars are a little skewed. Yes war is a terrible thing. But Iraq isn't/wasnt the cake walk you make it out to be. We found an insurgency that took many lives. We didnt know who was the enemy and who was a friend. We faced an enemy that would gladly blow themselves up with us. Many who went to Iraq didnt know if they were coming back and when they did they got a short turn around and was sent back. Many people who went to Iraq and Afghanistan were fine and became troubled because of what they saw. Watch Restrepo and tell me they had it easy or were sitting at a base bored.

Yeah, I didn't want to say it because I never went there nor am I in any service, but Roach nailed it.

Iraq and Afghanistan sucked, and in my estimation, my generation in twenty years will look back on it with a similar ire and horror to the way my father's regards Vietnam. Vietnam was horrible, Hippie_Hunter, yes, but the reputation of the war bore out of time and retrospect. Remember, initially we blasted Vietnam soldiers as "baby killers", and made it out as if the war we fought was a bunch of big bad Americans bullying helpless Vietnamese children. When those soldiers started to return and began telling their stories the view of the war shifted to that of a nightmarish experience for our boys in the service.

And, I mean, war is hell always.

[Shockdingo]

I read it as hippie referring to Desert Storm rather than this modern Iraq and Afghanistan war, but I could be wrong

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by Shockdingo

I read it as hippie referring to Desert Storm rather than this modern Iraq and Afghanistan war, but I could be wrong

I'm referring to Desert Storm. To say such things about the more recent Iraq War would be horrible and that particular conflict is far more comparable to Vietnam than Desert Storm. Putting the Punisher in the more recent Iraq, or Afghanistan, Wars would also be a bad move IMO. While they provide the trauma that Vietnam brings, they would make Frank way too young IMO.

[Aesculapius]

The main reasons I think his backstory should be updated:

1) The reasons for him still being young are outlandish and stupid for the character. While that is how Marvel rolls, that doesn't mean I have to like it.
2) Vietnam is becoming a relic of the past and too abstract to most people.
3) I like simple origin stories, or origin stories that encapsulate the character and explain why the character is so damn old, like what is now Cap's. I don't like origin stories that involve "See x story arc somewhere down the clusterf***." If you must do a story with no end (like what Marvel does for a business model) then you should be able to explain the character in one story.
4) There are plenty of ways you can tweak Punisher's character into being a vigilante vet. Could be a special ops guy in some place where atrocities are normal. The world still has those. Marvel could even make one up to avoid the Punisher being anachronistic at a later date.
5) Most old characters you either dismiss anachronistic parts of their origin or update them. Since you can't dismiss the Punisher being from 'Nam, he should be updated.

My one, but still very valid, reason for not wanting his backstory updated.

1) Let's face it. Him being a disgruntled 'Nam vet simply fits and adds to the charm of the character.

[roach]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

I'm referring to Desert Storm. To say such things about the more recent Iraq War would be horrible and that particular conflict is far more comparable to Vietnam than Desert Storm. Putting the Punisher in the more recent Iraq, or Afghanistan, Wars would also be a bad move IMO. While they provide the trauma that Vietnam brings, they would make Frank way too young IMO.

Sorry thought you meant the current one...no harm no foul

[Midnyte_Sun]

Vietnam and Vietnam only. But it will change, everything changes in the Marvel U.

Johnny Blaze should be older than the Punisher, but he was brought back to life younger than Dan Ketch.

[fat freddys cat]

If it makes it any easier ?

We still have Punisher MAX with a NAM origin and always will , a few DECENT stories set in the 90's or 00's and that's that solved

I like the idea of an updated war origin it keeps one of my fundamental reasons for liking the Punisher intact that unlike near any other character in the MU 616 is that he is just a non powered human using real life weapons it makes him unique , more realistic .


No super serums to keep him young no bloodstone's

[hippie_hunter]

But it makes little sense to keep MAX Punisher in Vietnam and yet the 616 Punisher updated.

MAX Punisher is the one that needs updating because almost all MAX Punisher stories involve Frank in far more realistic settings, using realistic weapons, and dealing with threats such as the Kingpin, Barracuda, Jigsaw, and Bullseye along with more realistic antagonistic organizations such as terrorist groups such as the IRA, drug cartels, sex rings, etc. His interaction with other Marvel characters is mostly limited to Nick Fury. The tone of this version is realistic, he lives in a more realistic world, and thus it would make sense to update him to keep him young enough to keep him doing what he does best. To make a comparison, this version of the Punisher is more like Nolan's Batman. And like Nolan's version of Batman, this version of the Punisher should stay away from all that supernatural mumbo jumbo because that's the tone of what the world the character is set in. It would just look stupid to have a Punisher that is far too old in the MAX interpretation and it would look stupid for him to interact with things that go against his world.

616 Punisher on the other hand belongs in the 616 Universe where he interacts with superheroes like Spider-Man and Captain America all the time. He was a Frankenstein monster and an agent of God. He's on a team that consists of the Red Hulk and Venom. He uses sci-fi-esque weapons from time to time. He fights more outlandish enemies like the Stilt-Man, AIM, and the Leader. There is just nothing at all realistic about the 616 Punisher's world and thus wouldn't make sense for him to be the sole realistic character of the bunch. This is the version that should keep his 'Nam origin in tact. This version of the Punisher is like other versions of Batman, sure he's the non-powered guy of the bunch, but he has some rather outlandish stuff happen to him as well. The tone of the world allows the Punisher to get away with things like FrankenCastle and whatnot, without it looking stupid. He lives in the same world as Thanos, Dr. Strange, and mutants, why the hell not?

[TheCorpulent1]

I've never really seen the need to refer to which specific war Frank fought in, personally. He fought in a war and he experienced horrors that stuck with him (or brought out what was already there, depending on which interpretation you favor), and then he falls back into that mindset after his family is killed. Anyone claiming it has to be Vietnam confuses me. Why? Because that war was so much more terrible than any other? Horrible stuff happens in every war, and Frank experiences the worst of it. It doesn't seem like it should matter which war specifically those horrors came from.