Official 'The Hobbit' Thread - Part 10

[AnneFan]

Originally Posted by Schlosser85

Not the biggest fan of Radagast or the Goblin King, and the dinner scene at Bilbo's house went on way too long.

I got so excited when Gollum showed up.

I didn't like the Radagast sequences. I found them saggy and a bit too kooky. I didn't particularly warm to the Goblin King either. He was ok. I liked his death scene with Gandalf just slashing him with the sword, but the "that'll do it" retort didn't really work for me. I know Gollum doesn't appear again in the book, but I'd really like to see him again in Parts 2 and/or 3. Even if it's just him following them around in a bitter rage.

[LostSon88]

When the Dwarves finished singing, a man in the theater was snoring loudly.

I'd like to think that he found the song so soothing it put him to sleep. Haha. I mean, it does have a pretty nice, calming sound to it.

Oh and seriously, young Bilbo makes Frodo look like a b**** during his journey 60 years later.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by LostSon88

Oh and seriously, young Bilbo makes Frodo look like a b**** during his journey 60 years later.

In the books as well. In the Hobbit Bilbo is taking down giant spiders left and right with sting, while Frodo falls pretty easy to Shelob.

[Thundercrack85]

I have to say as a film, this was a total mess. It dragged, the pacing was terrible. It couldn't decide if it wanted to be a gritty action flick like Lord of the Rings, or more kid friendly like the book.

It took an hour just to get on the damn road, two hours later, very little had been accomplished.

This should not have been turned into a trilogy. Two movies, tops.

I will say that I'll take Bilbo over Frodo any day. But I would take the rest of the Fellowship over the Dwarves.

[Marvolo]

Originally Posted by LostSon88

When the Dwarves finished singing, a man in the theater was snoring loudly.

I'd like to think that he found the song so soothing it put him to sleep. Haha. I mean, it does have a pretty nice, calming sound to it.

Oh and seriously, young Bilbo makes Frodo look like a b**** during his journey 60 years later.

There was a guy snoring in the first forty minutes when I watched it as well.

[Project862006]

just got back such an awesome movie it did'nt even feel long i wanted more lol

and for all the crap this forum gave kili he was the best dwarf behind thorin

[ThePhantasm]

Balin was my favorite dwarf by far, and the second best developed after Thorin.

[Marvolo]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

Balin was my favorite dwarf by far, and the second best developed after Thorin.

Those were the only two developed at all. Balin was my favorite, followed by Kili, Fili, and Thorin in that order. Thorin just had a ****** attitude for 90% of the movie.

[LostSon88]

Thorin I found very interesting in that he's essentially the 'Aragorn' of The Hobbit.

However, unlike Aragorn, Thorin actually embraces his heritage and sense of royalty whereas Aragorn is the reluctant heir.

I relate the manner in which they 'embrace' their legacy to their attitudes, where Thorin is somewhat arrogant and in some ways a more commanding leader whereas Aragorn has a much more calming and compassionate approach.

[CapedCrusader14]

Balin was my favourite Dwarf as well. Thorin can go **** himself for all I care, he was a ****.

[Zatanna]

You guys don't like Bombur? LOL.

[Silvermoth]

I loved Bombur! I loved all the characters really.

[Oberon sexton]

Thorin was awesome. He was a ****, yet he seemed like a great ****. That whole thing at the start "I won't be held responsible for his fate"...he nearly died saving Bilbo twice! He's a **** with a heart of gold.

[Marvolo]

Originally Posted by Oberon sexton

Thorin was awesome. He was a ****, yet he seemed like a great ****. That whole thing at the start "I won't be held responsible for his fate"...he nearly died saving Bilbo twice! He's a **** with a heart of gold.

Yeah but he made sure Bilbo knew just how aggravating it was to save him each time. It took the three foot hobbit facing down a hellbeast and an albino cat orc to gain his acceptance. Sad part is that when they get to Erebor he is going to be an even bigger dick over the Arkenstone. Tho I hope Jackson alters that. After three films and character growth I really dont want Thorin to pull a Boromir and start yelling and screaming at Bilbo over the Arkenstone.

[Oberon sexton]

He cant pull a Boromir because he isn't Sean Bean

[Slushy]

"that'll do it" retort didn't really work for me

Its because Jackson took that from one of the best worst movies ever made!

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

As evidenced at the 2:30 mark

[Destructus86]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

I have to say as a film, this was a total mess. It dragged, the pacing was terrible. It couldn't decide if it wanted to be a gritty action flick like Lord of the Rings, or more kid friendly like the book.

It took an hour just to get on the damn road, two hours later, very little had been accomplished.

This should not have been turned into a trilogy. Two movies, tops.

I will say that I'll take Bilbo over Frodo any day. But I would take the rest of the Fellowship over the Dwarves.

It never once dragged for me. I felt the beginning went by pretty quickly.

[LostSon88]

The beginning was the only part that felt slow to me. Once we finally leave Bagend, the movie hit a pretty smooth pace for me...

[godisawesome]

The HFR looked much better the second time I saw it in 3D, and on a LieMax screen. The flight parts of it looked beauitful.

[The Guard]

The beginning just made me hungry.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by Marvolo

Yeah but he made sure Bilbo knew just how aggravating it was to save him each time. It took the three foot hobbit facing down a hellbeast and an albino cat orc to gain his acceptance. Sad part is that when they get to Erebor he is going to be an even bigger dick over the Arkenstone. Tho I hope Jackson alters that. After three films and character growth I really dont want Thorin to pull a Boromir and start yelling and screaming at Bilbo over the Arkenstone.

I hope he doesn't alter that at all. The book is very clear about the effect that massive wealth has on the dwarves, and how it makes them total douches. Thorin's realization only on his deathbed that Bilbo's treasure-less simple hobbit life is better is one of the most powerful scenes in the book.

Of course Thorin is a **** in the book and the film. Only death, letting go of the treasure that he cannot take with him, changes that.

[Marvolo]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

I hope he doesn't alter that at all. The book is very clear about the effect that massive wealth has on the dwarves, and how it makes them total douches. Thorin's realization only on his deathbed that Bilbo's treasure-less simple hobbit life is better is one of the most powerful scenes in the book.

Of course Thorin is a **** in the book and the film. Only death, letting go of the treasure that he cannot take with him, changes that.

Im sorry but a deathbed change of heart after three films of dickishness wont fly with the audience. Redemption and love has to be earned. 9 hours of being a dick and five minutes of "oh sorry I was a mean bitter dwarf and treated you like ****. My bad." *dies* wont cut it. In a 275 page children's book it might be excusable, but in a 9+ hour trilogy he cant be a dick the whole time and change his heart just before death. It would reek of desperation to make the audience feel something for an unlikeable character. I know The Hobbit is loved, but Thorin and most of the dwarves are underdeveloped/poorly developed in the book. I expect better from the film.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by Marvolo

Im sorry but a deathbed change of heart after three films of dickishness wont fly with the audience. Redemption and love has to be earned. 9 hours of being a dick and five minutes of "oh sorry I was a mean bitter dwarf and treated you like ****. My bad." *dies* wont cut it.

That's the whole point. Thorin doesn't earn his redemption. I don't see why the story should be massively changed just because you don't think something will "fly with the audience." The whole point is thematic - the contrast between Bilbo and Thorin. Its a clash of different presuppositions, and in the end Bilbo's prove true to be the right ones.

If you expect characters to earn their redemption in Tolkien stories, you are in for some grave disappointments. Most of his stories contain a tragic element in which redemption is never ever earned. This holds even more true for bits of the Silmarillion like the Children of Hurin.

Take Frodo's fall to the ring for example. Frodo never redeems himself, not in the book or the film. Frodo fails. Gollum destroys the ring in the end, really. And Jackson wanted to preserve this in the film:

Originally Posted by Peter Jackson

We didn't want to make Frodo heroic. We wanted to make Frodo feel that he had failed. At that point, he's free of the burden — the Ring is destroyed and it's no longer having that power over him. There's a sense that Frodo feels like he wants to let go, he feels that he has failed, and Sam says, ‘No, don't do that.'

[Source]

[Marvolo]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

That's the whole point. Thorin doesn't earn his redemption. I don't see why the story should be massively changed just because you don't think something will "fly with the audience." The whole point is thematic - the contrast between Bilbo and Thorin. Its a clash of different presuppositions, and in the end Bilbo's prove true to be the right ones.

If you expect characters to earn their redemption in Tolkien stories, you are in for some grave disappointments. Most of his stories contain a tragic element in which redemption is never ever earned. This holds even more true for bits of the Silmarillion like the Children of Hurin.

Ive read tolkien's works so Im not surprised by this stuff. There is a difference between tragedy and being an insufferable dick for the entirety of the story. Thorin was poorly written in the book so I look forward to a more likeable Thorin in the film, and considering Jackson has shifted Thorin more into the spotlight and the fact this is now a trilogy I expect Jackson will improve upon his character. It would also be backtracking to have Thorin be a dick throughout the next film when he has come over to Bilbo's side at the end of Part 1. Bilbo saved his life and stood between Thorin and an Orc and Warg. Frankly Thorin can lay off. Plus with Thorin being pretty much the protagonist needs to be more likeable.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by Marvolo

Ive read tolkien's works so Im not surprised by this stuff. There is a difference between tragedy and being an insufferable dick for the entirety of the story. Thorin was poorly written in the book so I look forward to a more likeable Thorin in the film, and considering Jackson has shifted Thorin more into the spotlight and the fact this is now a trilogy I expect Jackson will improve upon his character. It would also be backtracking to have Thorin be a dick throughout the next film when he has come over to Bilbo's side at the end of Part 1. Bilbo saved his life and stood between Thorin and an Orc and Warg. Frankly Thorin can lay off. Plus with Thorin being pretty much the protagonist needs to be more likeable.

But Thorin has not "come over to Bilbo's side." He and Bilbo still think very differently about the world. Rather, at the end of the first film he has accepted that Bilbo has something to contribute to the party, that he is actually courageous, and that he is a loyal friend. This is a big development for Thorin to be sure (and happens around that point in the book as well with the dwarves being impressed by Bilbo's escape from the Goblins) but it does not obviate the differences in how Bilbo and Thorin view the world, differences which are destined to bring them into conflict.

The film already has all this set up with the prologue speaking of gold "poisoning the mind." Thorin will fall to the same temptations that Thror did before. Its the natural current / flow of the story and I think changing it would really be a massive disruption to the narrative just to make Thorin more "likeable."

And I disagree with the interpretation of the film that suggests Thorin is pretty much the protagonist. Bilbo is pretty clearly the protagonist. Thorin just has a lot of backstory. But clearly his emnity with Azog isn't the set up of some heroes' journey, but a destructive mutual end for both, a la the book where Thorin falls confronting Bolg's guard. The goblin and dwarf will destroy each other in the end. If not Azog, then Bolg. Its a tragedy. Thorin isn't Aragorn. Not in the book, and not in the film.