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Old 01-19-2013, 09:35 PM   #251
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

Batman would've been in some serious poo poo if he didn't have the Batlobster. Without it, the city would've been doomed. Wayne Enterprises R&D FTW.

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Old 01-19-2013, 09:44 PM   #252
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He was clearly supposed to be a character that is an opportunistic ******* at the beginning who morphs into a selfless hero, as a statement of Batman's positive influence on *******s. Yes, he was that. But it just wasn't done well. It wasn't given enough attention. He sees Batman's flaming symbol and suddenly becomes a hero. Nolan also missed the chance to milk last minute sympathy for him by giving him a hilarious death.
Pretty much this

Foley is one of the worst characters in the trilogy.

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Old 01-19-2013, 09:46 PM   #253
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That wasn't what worked. What didn't work and feel hollow was his redemption.

This is one of the great ironies of movie making. Scenes that feel short and character arcs that feel hollow and unneeded can actually improve by adding to them.

It's him so easily trusting and being inspired by Batman enough to risk his life that rings hollow for me. Especially when he led a manhunt for him earlier in the film where his opinion Batman wasn't very high to say the least. Why would the mere return of this man so move him? Perhaps there should've been a scene where he meets Batman face to face. Being in his physical presence, perhaps exchanging a few words, perhaps seeing Batman work his kick assery might've lent some credibility to his redemption.
Batman didn't need Foley, and certainly didn't trust him the way he did Gordon and Blake. Generally, he keeps himself unseen unless he trusts you or needs you. Which includes needing you to get a beatdown.

In fact, Batman probably didn't even give a crap what Foley thought of him at any point during the movie. The flame was for everyone in Gotham to see - that he was back, and that the tide was about to turn/s*** was going to go down in the morning/Bane had better watch hisself/best to stay clear of windows and tall buildings given Batman's inclination for property damage/etc etc.

Foley was the character who had an authoritative identity - a deputy commissioner. A title that was given to him (thus the uniform), but also a title he worked for. He had to self-identify as deputy commissioner before putting on the uniform and believing in it. When Bane hung those Special Forces, he stopped believing in it. What was the use - Bane was in charge, and he believed he had no authority, no space. At the end, he believes in himself and the title once again. "There's only one police in this town" - while surrounded by everyone who was given the title of police officer AND also believed themselves to still be police despite the drastically changed environment.

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Old 01-19-2013, 09:51 PM   #254
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I really like the mask we got. It has a very animal like feeling to it that goes hand in hand with the kind of monster feeling Bane has with his presence.

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It's him so easily trusting and being inspired by Batman enough to risk his life that rings hollow for me. Especially when he led a manhunt for him earlier in the film where his opinion Batman wasn't very high to say the least. Why would the mere return of this man so move him? Perhaps there should've been a scene where he meets Batman face to face. Being in his physical presence, perhaps exchanging a few words, perhaps seeing Batman work his kick assery might've lent some credibility to his redemption.
He only went after Batman after thinking he indeed killed Harvey Dent and not protecting Gordon's son. Knowing the truth most likely didn't call for anything else when seeing Batman's symbol and knowing that Foley had to do what was right now.

Plus, there would be no way Batman would ever want to speak to Foley until he trusted him as much as he did with guys in the police force like Gordon or Blake. Like in TDK when Batman didn't even bother to talk to Stephens or anyone else after Gordon's fake death.

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Foley is one of the worst characters in the trilogy.
While Foley definitely grew on me, I can still agree to this with being one of the worst characters in the trilogy. Imo, the two worst characters in the trilogy are in TDKR(Foley and Jen and while I still tend to like Foley's arc even with how annoying the character is, Foley also got some closure. Jen did not).

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Old 01-19-2013, 09:55 PM   #255
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

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Batman didn't need Foley, and certainly didn't trust him the way he did Gordon and Blake.
He trusted him enough to be the Commander of a make shift police army. And that army captured almost all Bane lackey and poor revolutionaries; so yes, he sorta needed him.

Quote:
In fact, Batman probably didn't even give a crap what Foley thought of him at any point during the movie. The flame was for everyone in Gotham to see - that he was back, and that the tide was about to turn/s*** was going to go down in the morning/Bane had better watch hisself/best to stay clear of windows and tall buildings given Batman's inclination for property damage/etc etc.
It was also for Foley to see. Keep firmly in mind, whose emotional reaction only did Nolan choose to show us after Batman's grand theater?

My problem was that I didn't buy his immediate change of mind.


Quote:
Foley was the character who had an authoritative identity - a deputy commissioner. A title that was given to him (thus the uniform), but also a title he worked for. He had to self-identify as deputy commissioner before putting on the uniform and believing in it. When Bane hung those Special Forces, he stopped believing in it. What was the use - Bane was in charge, and he believed he had no authority, no space. At the end, he believes in himself and the title once again. "There's only one police in this town" - while surrounded by everyone who was given the title of police officer AND also believed themselves to still be police despite the drastically changed environment.
Yes, this is what happens on paper, I already conceded this. But I don't believe a shred of it. I don't feel it. That is the problem. There aren't enough scenes with Foley for these to register in any meaningful way. A problem, I am sure, of condensing Jonah's massive original treatment.

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Old 01-19-2013, 10:02 PM   #256
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He only went after Batman after thinking he indeed killed Harvey Dent and not protecting Gordon's son. Knowing the truth most likely didn't call for anything else when seeing Batman's symbol and knowing that Foley had to do what was right now.
Thank you for highlighting Foley's under development. Perhaps his change of heart would've registered better if we had a scene of his reaction and confusion regarding what his previous perception of Batman was.

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Plus, there would be no way Batman would ever want to speak to Foley until he trusted him as much as he did with guys in the police force like Gordon or Blake. Like in TDK when Batman didn't even bother to talk to Stephens or anyone else after Gordon's fake death.
He trusted him enough to be the Commander of a make shift police army. And that army captured almost all Bane lackey and poor revolutionaries; so yes, he sorta needed him. And he mattered a bit more than Stephens in the narrative don't you think?

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Old 01-19-2013, 10:12 PM   #257
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At that point he didn't know Tate was Talia and she's rat it out to Bane. But if I were Batman, I'd be keeping my return a public secret up until the last moment. Thematically, it didn't motivate Gothamites to join the fight, they remained indoors. We only see it inspired Foley, and we all pretty much agree was one of the worst characters. The police lined up in formation but that was arranged beforehand. When Gordon lit up the makeshift signal, the one Batman would've spent a lot of time creating, the baddies could've just pushed the trigger right there and then. But they waited.

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Old 01-19-2013, 10:17 PM   #258
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

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He trusted him enough to be the Commander of a make shift police army. And that army captured almost all Bane lackey and poor revolutionaries; so yes, he sorta needed him.
Batman certainly didn't assign him to be commander of that army, at least not from what we saw on screen. He likely just told everybody to go down that street to act as a general distraction to Bane's army, and if they were lucky, they could get hold of the bomb.

From Foley's demeanor, it looked like he joined the group as it was passing down the street. He only went up in front because it was him accepting his previously assigned role as leader.

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It was also for Foley to see. Keep firmly in mind, whose emotional reaction only did Nolan choose to show us after Batman's grand theater?

My problem was that I didn't buy his immediate change of mind.
Because it was part of Foley's arc as according to Nolan-the-storyteller. I really don't believe Batman gave a crap about Foley one way or another.

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Yes, this is what happens on paper, I already conceded this. But I don't believe a shred of it. I don't feel it. That is the problem. There aren't enough scenes with Foley for these to register in any meaningful way. A problem, I am sure, of condensing Jonah's massive original treatment.
Perhaps. If you don't buy it, then you just don't buy it. I know folks who can't get on board with Bane's voice and thus think the entire movie is subpar. But if you're not on board, you just aren't and we're all just wasting our breath.

I do agree that it would have been better served if we had more time, but there are honestly enough things going on thematically in the movie (even considering the possibility of lengthening it), that it doesn't bother me all that much.

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Old 01-19-2013, 10:22 PM   #259
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While Foley definitely grew on me, I can still agree to this with being one of the worst characters in the trilogy. Imo, the two worst characters in the trilogy are in TDKR(Foley and Jen and while I still tend to like Foley's arc even with how annoying the character is, Foley also got some closure. Jen did not).
Anno, just wondering- what's so bad about Jen besides the fact that she didn't get any closure? Her name isn't even mentioned in the film, that's how minor a character she is. Personally I'd rather have her in the film than not. She gives some weight to the idea that Selina is someone who looks out for people less fortunate. Seeing Selina give Jen the guy's watch right before the ballroom scene where she defends her actions to Bruce was a nice touch, for example. For all the complaints that people like Foley and Blake had too much screen time, I thought Jen was in it just the right amount...adding a bit of texture to the story without being any kind of major player.

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Thematically, it didn't motivate Gothamites to join the fight, they remained indoors. We only see it inspired Foley, and we all pretty much agree was one of the worst characters. The police lined up in formation but that was arranged beforehand. When Gordon lit up the makeshift signal, the one Batman would've spent a lot of time creating, the baddies could've just pushed the trigger right there and then. But they waited.
Well...the point of the burning signal wasn't necessarily to inspire people to join the fight. Batman wanted as many innocent people to escape off the island as possible, not join them. I figure it was Batman's way of declaring war on Bane and simultaneously showing him that he wasn't going to let Gotham die without hope.


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From Foley's demeanor, it looked like he joined the group as it was passing down the street. He only went up in front because it was him accepting his previously assigned role as leader.
Exactly. Foley clearly showed up at the last minute to join the fight. Batman did not give the slightest crap about him personally. And Foley was not the commander of that police army. Batman was.

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Old 01-19-2013, 10:24 PM   #260
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At that point he didn't know Tate was Talia and she's rat it out to Bane. But if I were Batman, I'd be keeping my return a public secret up until the last moment. Thematically, it didn't motivate Gothamites to join the fight, they remained indoors. We only see it inspired Foley, and we all pretty much agree was one of the worst characters. The police lined up in formation but that was arranged beforehand. When Gordon lit up the makeshift signal, the one Batman would've spent a lot of time creating, the baddies could've just pushed the trigger right there and then. But they waited.
That's a good point. But perhaps Bane and Tatelia figured they'd waited this long, might as well draw it out some more before blowing it all up in Bruce's face. The mistake of all baddies.

As for the batsignal not motivating Gothamites to join the fight, I always thought that there was an awfully large number of people that could evacuate within 30 minutes of notice on that bridge.

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Old 01-19-2013, 10:35 PM   #261
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Batman certainly didn't assign him to be commander of that army, at least not from what we saw on screen.
We don't see very much of anything, which is where my problem lies. Perhaps Gordon assigned him, perhaps he forcefully assigned himself, both hypothetical scenarios require Gordon to run it through Batman. If Batman thought Foley wasn't up to it, Foley wouldn't be there. Perhaps he didn't, but Gordon convinced him that despite being an asshat Foley is competent at some things. Remember, this was a delicate situation that would crumble entirely if the slightest thing screws up. Batman absolutely needed to trust Foley to have sent him there as the Captain of an impoverished, make shift police army.

We just see none of it. Perhaps we don't need to. But I needed more to buy Foley as a character.


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Because it was part of Foley's arc as according to Nolan-the-storyteller. I really don't believe Batman gave a crap about Foley one way or another.
Well, I already covered the Batman part. As for Foley's arc, yes, that was my point. The flaming symbol, not in terms of Batman, but narratively, was a calling to Foley. I simply didn't buy his sudden change of heart.


Quote:
I do agree that it would have been better served if we had more time, but there are honestly enough things going on thematically in the movie (even considering the possibility of lengthening it), that it doesn't bother me all that much.
This film would rocked with thirty more minutes.

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Old 01-19-2013, 11:25 PM   #262
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We don't see very much of anything, which is where my problem lies. Perhaps Gordon assigned him, perhaps he forcefully assigned himself, both hypothetical scenarios require Gordon to run it through Batman. If Batman thought Foley wasn't up to it, Foley wouldn't be there. Perhaps he didn't, but Gordon convinced him that despite being an asshat Foley is competent at some things. Remember, this was a delicate situation that would crumble entirely if the slightest thing screws up. Batman absolutely needed to trust Foley to have sent him there as the Captain of an impoverished, make shift police army.
Whoa whoa whoa. Where in the movie did you get all that from?

It doesn't look like Gordon meets up with the police army at all after getting the EMP mount from Batman, let alone see Foley or approve of his presence. The group chasing down the bomb truck with Gordon are the same guys who were on the ice too. There seemed to be no intermixing of the two groups. Blake doesn't even have a clue what Gordon is up to at that point. For all he knows, Gordon is dead. Blake and Gordon didn't know what the heck Catwoman was up to either. For all Blake knows, Selina was killed at Blackgate, and we don't even know if Gordon knows Selina even exists at that point. And Catwoman only knows there's going to be fighting, and to blast through the tunnel when she hears it.

Batman only assigned Blake the duty of rescuing civilians because he's setting Blake up to be Gotham's new protector and it was to emphasize what he should do in a pinch - rescue innocents. Batman assigned Gordon with disarming the bomb because he could trust Gordon to do the one job that he needed most and couldn't physically be there to do. Batman assigned Catwoman the job of blasting that tunnel because she looks hot on the batpod is adaptable and can learn how to drive the thing quickly. His original plan doesn't depend on her coming back, although it's certainly nice that she does.

Batman didn't need Foley to lead that army. The army would have gone on without him, because they were inspired by Batman's presence. Foley leading that army was for the sake of Foley's own arc.

As with TDK's SWAT van chase, the results of TDKR's City Hall assault were from disparate groups of people who worked toward a single goal, even if they didn't know what was going on from all sides.

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Old 01-20-2013, 12:42 AM   #263
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Thank you for highlighting Foley's under development. Perhaps his change of heart would've registered better if we had a scene of his reaction and confusion regarding what his previous perception of Batman was.
It definitely is under development because, more importantly, there should have been a scene of Foley confronting Gordon even about the Dent reveal.

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He trusted him enough to be the Commander of a make shift police army. And that army captured almost all Bane lackey and poor revolutionaries; so yes, he sorta needed him. And he mattered a bit more than Stephens in the narrative don't you think?
Didn't say Batman didn't need Foley, only that Batman wouldn't come to talk to him as he has with the only people he really trusted in the GCPD as with Gordon and Blake. Just because he needed Foley's help to lead the army or that he needed the entire police force to help him with Bane's mercenaries still doesn't mean he trusts the force enough to have a sit down and talk to any of them.

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Anno, just wondering- what's so bad about Jen besides the fact that she didn't get any closure? Her name isn't even mentioned in the film, that's how minor a character she is. Personally I'd rather have her in the film than not. She gives some weight to the idea that Selina is someone who looks out for people less fortunate. Seeing Selina give Jen the guy's watch right before the ballroom scene where she defends her actions to Bruce was a nice touch, for example. For all the complaints that people like Foley and Blake had too much screen time, I thought Jen was in it just the right amount...adding a bit of texture to the story without being any kind of major player.
I find her terrible because she was obviously used because Nolan couldn't give Holly the respect that character needed, so we got a useless character that seems to help Selina, but try to keep her in the darkness of embracing the storm that came after Bane's siege. And then when Selina became more of a "good guy" than in any other moment in TDKR, Jen seemingly just disappears, isn't used or seen again and even minor characters in the trilogy are shown to get some conclusion. Jen did not and that's why I find her to be the most horrible character in the trilogy and the most useless. At least I can say I enjoyed Foley's arc.

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Old 01-20-2013, 01:38 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by HitMe
3. When talking about the end many people have said that it couldn't be Alfred imagining it because he never met Selina, but he did meet her, right at the beginning of the film. I don't think he was imagining the end but for all the conspiracy theorists who want to believe, the scene is there. And right afterwards he's talking about setting them up and chimpanzees and stuff.


The timeline is unclear, and what they might release about how the whole thing went down is unclear as well, but Alfred was actively trying to set Bruce up with Miranda. If Alfred even had an inkling of belief that Miranda was alive (and of course he didn't know she was the mastermind), then she would be there with Bruce, not Selina, if he was imagining it.

The line about chimps was a joke. He didn't think Bruce had any romantic interest in Selina, especially after she jacked the pearls. Also, the line from the lawyer about the pearls being missing, then seeing them on Selina in Italy is just another sign that they ran away and are real.
Bolded. Also, like I said, I only wanted to point this out because when discussing this I've seen so many people write "but he couldn't have imagined it, he never met Selina". Doesn't mean mean I believe anything else, just wanted to point out that he does meet her in the film.

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Old 01-20-2013, 10:35 AM   #265
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

Mexican wrestler Mephisto in Japan..


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Old 01-20-2013, 10:37 AM   #266
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

lol i'm kinda surprised it's taken someone this long to rip off the look of Bane.

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Old 01-20-2013, 11:48 AM   #267
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

Lol, luchas influence Bane's look in the comics/cartoon, Bane's look in the film influences luchas. It's the circle of Bane.

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Old 01-20-2013, 12:04 PM   #268
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Whoa whoa whoa. Where in the movie did you get all that from?

It doesn't look like Gordon meets up with the police army at all after getting the EMP mount from Batman, let alone see Foley or approve of his presence. The group chasing down the bomb truck with Gordon are the same guys who were on the ice too. There seemed to be no intermixing of the two groups. Blake doesn't even have a clue what Gordon is up to at that point. For all he knows, Gordon is dead. Blake and Gordon didn't know what the heck Catwoman was up to either. For all Blake knows, Selina was killed at Blackgate, and we don't even know if Gordon knows Selina even exists at that point. And Catwoman only knows there's going to be fighting, and to blast through the tunnel when she hears it.
My point was that we don't see much of anything regarding Foley's development later in the film. My proposed set of hypotheticals were supposed to be slightly humorous highlighting my frustrations, not actual events I thought happened.

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Batman didn't need Foley to lead that army. The army would have gone on without him, because they were inspired by Batman's presence. .
How can an army go on without a commander? That makes no sense.

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Foley leading that army was for the sake of Foley's own arc.
An arc doesn't resolve itself. Only with coming into harmony with other characters or into clashes with opposing characters does a character grow. In Foley's case the latter portion of arc involves the influence of Batman over him. So my question is if Foley (knowing his hotheaded nature) demanded to be the army's general? He had to have been okayed by Batman in that case. As I have already pointed out, their plan was like dominoes where if one of them fails the whole thing crumbles. Batman was not gonna allow somebody who he thought wouldn't be able to do the job be the leader of a police army. Alas, we don't know. Because there aren't enough scenes dedicated to Foley's arc. Which was my problem in the first place. His arc involves too much connecting the dots of a basic outline that is thoroughly unsatisfactory.

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As with TDK's SWAT van chase, the results of TDKR's City Hall assault were from disparate groups of people who worked toward a single goal, even if they didn't know what was going on from all sides.
TDK's van chase was definitely not disparate. They marched out with Convoys and police cars guarding them from the front and back designed to protect their bait Harvey Dent. It wasn't like the Joker happened to catch a fleeing Harvey Dent, which wouldn't make much sense given that the whole chase was designed to catch him in the first place. Rises' police assault on Bane's lackeys was also united, focused and organized (as much as time allowed it) and wouldn't work if every famished, delirious police who just saw the light of day charged head on.

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Old 01-20-2013, 12:38 PM   #269
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Lol, luchas influence Bane's look in the comics/cartoon, Bane's look in the film influences luchas. It's the circle of Bane.
Lol. The circle of Bane is like the circle of life, with a lot more throat crushing and spinal column injuries.

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Old 01-20-2013, 01:02 PM   #270
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Something interesting I found about Nolan's usage of characters, is that the side-characters that appear in the films are there because they serve to the story, not the other way around. That's why we got Ramirez instead of Montoya, Wuertz and Stephens instead of Bullock, and to a lesser degree Jen instead of Holly. I think because even though the characters are similar, some of their actions differ from the common interpretation of them. I think it was better this way.

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Old 01-20-2013, 01:24 PM   #271
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

I figured Foley was just there to show that a cop can be uncorrupt, technically good, and still be unlikeable.

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Old 01-20-2013, 01:34 PM   #272
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

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I figured Foley was just there to show that a cop can be uncorrupt, technically good, and still be unlikeable.
Yah. He's the poster child for a Gotham that has grown complacent.

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Old 01-20-2013, 01:40 PM   #273
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

I've been thinking about this for awhile, but man do I wish Foley were Bullock. The character arc could stay the exact same, but swap out Modine for an actor who resembles Bullock.

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Old 01-20-2013, 02:22 PM   #274
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

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How can an army go on without a commander? That makes no sense.
Batman was the ultimate guy in charge, but even in the previous movies, he doesn't exactly keep check on the folks he assigns to do things. He tells them what he needs and lets them do their jobs. We never really see him pass judgment on those doing work on the ground. Even when Dent is doing that to Gordon's cops in TDK, Batman doesn't say a word, even if he might have reservations.

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An arc doesn't resolve itself. Only with coming into harmony with other characters or into clashes with opposing characters does a character grow. In Foley's case the latter portion of arc involves the influence of Batman over him. So my question is if Foley (knowing his hotheaded nature) demanded to be the army's general? He had to have been okayed by Batman in that case. As I have already pointed out, their plan was like dominoes where if one of them fails the whole thing crumbles. Batman was not gonna allow somebody who he thought wouldn't be able to do the job be the leader of a police army. Alas, we don't know. Because there aren't enough scenes dedicated to Foley's arc. Which was my problem in the first place. His arc involves too much connecting the dots of a basic outline that is thoroughly unsatisfactory.
I'm still not convinced that Foley gave any necessary orders to the police army. Even when he died, they still prevailed.

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TDK's van chase was definitely not disparate. They marched out with Convoys and police cars guarding them from the front and back designed to protect their bait Harvey Dent. It wasn't like the Joker happened to catch a fleeing Harvey Dent, which wouldn't make much sense given that the whole chase was designed to catch him in the first place. Rises' police assault on Bane's lackeys was also united, focused and organized (as much as time allowed it) and wouldn't work if every famished, delirious police who just saw the light of day charged head on.
Yes it was. Dent didn't know Gordon was driving his convoy, and neither did he know what Batman would do if Joker went after it. It's debatable whether Dent and Gordon knew what Batman's plan was - Batman might not even have known Gordon was still alive at that point. All of them were flying by the seat of their pants for this one, although they did have the same goal: keep Dent safe, catch the Joker.

The important thing is that they trusted each other to do their jobs.

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Yah. He's the poster child for a Gotham that has grown complacent.
Pretty much.

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Old 01-20-2013, 02:34 PM   #275
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

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I've been thinking about this for awhile, but man do I wish Foley were Bullock. The character arc could stay the exact same, but swap out Modine for an actor who resembles Bullock.
Yea I wish Bullock would have been here since Begins and had the same role foley had in tdkr. That would have been emotional.

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