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Old 01-22-2013, 12:39 AM   #326
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

I don't know, I wouldn't say she was meaningless. Her reason for being in the film was to show that Selina looked out for people with less. Without Jen, she'd have just told Bruce that but we wouldn't have seen it in action. When Selina protects her from that guy, steals his watch and gives it to her it says a lot about Selina's character. And we can see how someone like Jen would idolize someone like Selina. It helped characterize Selina as a champion of the lower class.

You could say that they could have just done the same with a nameless character...but Jen ironically was a nameless character. We only know her name because of the credits/IMDB. We also knew of Juno Temple's casting way early in the game, and many had assumed she would be Holly and therefore have a more substantial role.

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Old 01-22-2013, 12:58 AM   #327
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

It's been 5 years since Heath died.

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Old 01-22-2013, 03:51 AM   #328
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

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http://tdkinfluence.blogspot.ie/

A little blog I made showing some of the things that have been taken from Nolan's Batman movies and used in the comics, or in Two Face's case in Arkham City.

TDKR is not featured because as of yet I haven't seen anything taken from it and put in the comics or anything else Batman related. But it's early days.
I still go back and re-read your old Joker TDK influence blog from time to time. Happy to see you did another one.

Gotham Alleys covered some TDKR influences they spotted. They miss the mark with one or two (Catwoman's costume), and leave some things out, but the rest is pretty nice:

http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/201...vies-part.html

Would love to hear about your future findings, man. Keep me informed.

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Old 01-22-2013, 04:34 AM   #329
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

GothamAlleys has the best Bat-blog out there. I don't even think anyone comes close. He really needs to publish all of his stuff.....

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Old 01-22-2013, 07:24 AM   #330
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I still go back and re-read your old Joker TDK influence blog from time to time. Happy to see you did another one.

Gotham Alleys covered some TDKR influences they spotted. They miss the mark with one or two (Catwoman's costume), and leave some things out, but the rest is pretty nice:
Thank mate, I appreciate that, but this new blog is about things they took from Nolan's movies and put in the comics, not things Nolan took from the comics and put in the movies, like with my TDK Joker blog, and that GolthamAlley's blog.

The Narrows, the Bat Bunker etc are all exclusively from Nolan's movies and they put them in the Batman comics.

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Old 01-22-2013, 08:07 AM   #331
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

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It's been 5 years since Heath died.
He died a day before my birthday.

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Old 01-22-2013, 08:09 AM   #332
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

Cool idea for a blog Joker.

One thing I think TDKR already influenced is how how Dick deduces Bruce's identity in Nightwing #0. I just listened to the latest Fatman on Batman podcast featuring Nightwing writer Kyle Higgins, and he mentioned how Blake was his favorite character in TDKR, so I think it's pretty likely that he intentionally lifted that from the movie.

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Old 01-22-2013, 08:17 AM   #333
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

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Thank mate, I appreciate that, but this new blog is about things they took from Nolan's movies and put in the comics, not things Nolan took from the comics and put in the movies, like with my TDK Joker blog, and that GolthamAlley's blog.

The Narrows, the Bat Bunker etc are all exclusively from Nolan's movies and they put them in the Batman comics.
Good premise. I'll be reading it, Joker.

I like this:

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Old 01-22-2013, 09:19 AM   #334
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

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I like this:
Nice! I like that too.

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Old 01-22-2013, 10:42 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post
Cool idea for a blog Joker.

One thing I think TDKR already influenced is how how Dick deduces Bruce's identity in Nightwing #0. I just listened to the latest Fatman on Batman podcast featuring Nightwing writer Kyle Higgins, and he mentioned how Blake was his favorite character in TDKR, so I think it's pretty likely that he intentionally lifted that from the movie.
Thank you.

That's great, thanks for the tip off. I'll track down the issue and check it out. If anyone else discovers tid bits like this, send me a PM, please

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Good premise. I'll be reading it, Joker.
Thanks mate.

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Old 01-22-2013, 12:00 PM   #336
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

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Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post

One thing I think TDKR already influenced is how how Dick deduces Bruce's identity in Nightwing #0. I just listened to the latest Fatman on Batman podcast featuring Nightwing writer Kyle Higgins, and he mentioned how Blake was his favorite character in TDKR, so I think it's pretty likely that he intentionally lifted that from the movie.
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Thank you.

That's great, thanks for the tip off. I''ll track down the issue and check it out. If anyone else discovers tid bits like this, send me a PM, please
I have that issue. I even posted something about it a while ago.

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So has anyone seen the Nightwing #0 comic? It goes into the rewritten origins on Dick Grayson. I don't have the resources to post pics or scans at the moment but here's a quote:
Quote:
Batman: ... I only have one question. When you do find Zucco... Then what?
Grayson: You mean, will I kill him...
...Mr. Wayne? Sorry... You hide it well but... I've known since the moment I first saw you as Batman. Since the moment I realized we're the same.
Interesting. Will try to post pics when I get the chance.
*edit for pics*
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:


The new original Robin costume looks good.
I would've liked that Blake moment a lot more had he alluded to seeing him as Bruce and Batman.

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Old 01-22-2013, 12:04 PM   #337
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

THANK YOU

I'll add it to my blog now.

EDIT; It's added. Many thanks again, Threadpool and Batlobster.

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Old 01-22-2013, 12:40 PM   #338
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

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That doesn't make her a terrible character. Just under developed. She didn't irritate or do extremely stupid things like Foley did.
Being under-developed makes guys like Flint Marko and Eddie Brock, Jr. terrible in Spider-Man 3, so why doesn't the same apply to Jen?

And while she didn't irritate or annoy me, neither did Foley, so that point is kinda mute expect for anyone who was annoyed by Foley.

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Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post
I don't know, I wouldn't say she was meaningless. Her reason for being in the film was to show that Selina looked out for people with less. Without Jen, she'd have just told Bruce that but we wouldn't have seen it in action. When Selina protects her from that guy, steals his watch and gives it to her it says a lot about Selina's character. And we can see how someone like Jen would idolize someone like Selina. It helped characterize Selina as a champion of the lower class.
Showing a little scene of Selina protecting Jen from that guy is one thing, but showing Jen always being around Selina and then she just disappears was just a terrible idea. It's like she was important for some things but then she wasn't for the main idea of the film itself.

Quote:
You could say that they could have just done the same with a nameless character...but Jen ironically was a nameless character. We only know her name because of the credits/IMDB. We also knew of Juno Temple's casting way early in the game, and many had assumed she would be Holly and therefore have a more substantial role.
It was best she wasn't named Holly because I would only scrutinize the character even more since they wouldn't have even given Holly the character the respect she deserved.

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It's been 5 years since Heath died.
Didn't even think about this until now

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Old 01-22-2013, 12:42 PM   #339
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

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Being under-developed makes guys like Flint Marko and Eddie Brock, Jr. terrible in Spider-Man 3, so why doesn't the same apply to Jen?
They're the main villains of the movie. Jen was a 2 minute character. I couldn't even call her a supporting character like Foley since she contributed nothing to the plot.

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And while she didn't irritate or annoy me, neither did Foley, so that point is kinda mute expect for anyone who was annoyed by Foley.
Not many of those around

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Old 01-22-2013, 12:42 PM   #340
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

Any time, Mister J.

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Old 01-22-2013, 12:48 PM   #341
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They're the main villains of the movie. Jen was a 2 minute character. I couldn't even call her a supporting character like Foley since she contributed nothing to the plot.
As someone that was all around Selina for most of her scenes except around Batman, prison or the third act, I suspected she would have contributed something...until when she just vanished without no resolution. A terrible, under-develop character is a terrible character through and through.

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At least there are some

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Old 01-22-2013, 12:53 PM   #342
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

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As someone that was all around Selina for most of her scenes except around Batman, prison or the third act, I suspected she would have contributed something...until when she just vanished without no resolution.
Resolution of what? She had no character story in her scenes with Selina. So what resolution were you looking for later on with her? What story threads with her did Nolan leave unresolved?

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A terrible, under-develop character is a terrible character through and through.
That main henchman of Bane must be a terrible character to you, too, since he was always by Bane's side, had dialogue but is never named in the movie, under developed, and got no resolution

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At least there are some
Even Topher Grace's Venom has fans. It's not something to crow about.

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Old 01-22-2013, 01:02 PM   #343
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

No Deputy Commisioner is going to be portrayed as competent With Gordon around .
Basically, he made a play for Gordons job and as a result we got our first look at The Bat!
And , he gave his life for Gotham in an attempt to redeem himself .
I didnt have a problem with how Foley was used .

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Old 01-22-2013, 01:06 PM   #344
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Resolution of what? She had no character story in her scenes with Selina. So what resolution were you looking for later on with her? What story threads with her did Nolan leave unresolved?
Even a minor character like Coleman Reese had more character than Jen and THAT'S why she's THAT terrible. She seems like she wants to be a part of this "storm" that came and then when it seems like there will be a rift between Selina and Jen...Jen is just gone.

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That main henchman of Bane must be a terrible character to you, too, since he was always by Bane's side, had dialogue but is never named in the movie, under developed, and got no resolution
Jen was a character that was there for Selina and then she was just gone. She was worse than just a minor character or a side character or what have you. She was more than just a character like Barsad but she had less impact than Gordon's kids in TDK's final scene.

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Even Topher Grace's Venom has fans. It's not something to crow about.
It's not something to crow about...but does it make you feel better to say Grace's Venom has fans with your point of only some being totally fine with Foley?

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Old 01-22-2013, 01:15 PM   #345
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

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Even a minor character like Coleman Reese had more character than Jen and THAT'S why she's THAT terrible.
Coleman Reese had a name in the movie, a more prominent integral role in the story since he discovered Batman's identity, tried to blackmail Fox with that info, and then went on public TV with it. Jen did not have anything important like that in any of her scenes. Reese's screen time with the Fox blackmail scene is longer than all of Jen's scenes combined lol. Yet here you are complaining you wanted resolution with her.

I ask again; resolution with WHAT?

Quote:
She seems like she wants to be a part of this "storm" that came and then when it seems like there will be a rift between Selina and Jen...Jen is just gone.
Yeah so? Jen enjoyed the "storm" and Selina didn't. What else did you want?

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Jen was a character that was there for Selina and then she was just gone. She was worse than just a minor character or a side character or what have you.
Again why?

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She was more than just a character like Barsad
Why? What's the difference between them? He was always there for Bane, had dialogue but was never named in the movie, aided Bane in his activities, never got any resolution. So why does one set of rules apply to him and another for Jen?

Quote:
It's not something to crow about...but does it make you feel better to say Grace's Venom has fans with your point of only some being totally fine with Foley?
Why should that make me feel better? Nearly every bad character in a CBM movie has some fans. Or in Foley's case I wouldn't say fans, more like people that find him tolerable.

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Old 01-22-2013, 01:44 PM   #346
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I dont see the big deal with Jen, Holly or whoever she's supposed to be. She served her purpose as a friend of Selinas. She was there to show that she helps Selina (and vice versa) & to show how Selina doesn't want this kind of storm to go down in Gotham. Jen is all for it, and Selina starts changing her mind, slowly. She didn't need resolution because it's not about her, it's about Selina.

I was under the impression that this blonde chick followed her around and Selina almost mentored her in being a thief. Then something changes. Selina leaves her behind in Gotham because when the chips were down, those civilized people DID eat each other. And you find out who people really are in those moments. She found out what kind of person Jen was during Bane's seige, just from that one scene they had together in that house/mansion. She moved on and said F' that and helped save the city with Batman AND left the city with Bruce.

Jen was there to serve a purpose in a very minor role. She didn't need Coleman Reese or Foleys arc. I see Selina leaving her behind cuz it's a reminder of who she once was, like Bruce leaving all of Gotham behind. So her role was significant to me. It served the bigger picture of the story.

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Old 01-22-2013, 04:17 PM   #347
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Coleman Reese had a name in the movie, a more prominent integral role in the story since he discovered Batman's identity, tried to blackmail Fox with that info, and then went on public TV with it. Jen did not have anything important like that in any of her scenes. Reese's screen time with the Fox blackmail scene is longer than all of Jen's scenes combined lol. Yet here you are complaining you wanted resolution with her.

I ask again; resolution with WHAT?
Resolution of being there when the "storm" happens and Selina seemingly wants out. No fallout or anything of what seemed to be a friendship and of what seemed to be Selina having been Jen's protector during the film. Nothing. THAT resolution was needed if you ask me.

Quote:
Yeah so? Jen enjoyed the "storm" and Selina didn't. What else did you want?
Something more than just Jen asking Selina if that's what she wanted and then Jen vanishing from then on.

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Again why?
I need to explain myself over and over with you? If you don't get it twice when I've mentioned it, a third time won't help.

Quote:
Why? What's the difference between them? He was always there for Bane, had dialogue but was never named in the movie, aided Bane in his activities, never got any resolution. So why does one set of rules apply to him and another for Jen?
Barsad's resolution was us seeing him die. At least Nolan decided to give some minor characters their conclusion.

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Why should that make me feel better? Nearly every bad character in a CBM movie has some fans. Or in Foley's case I wouldn't say fans, more like people that find him tolerable.
Bringing it up just seemed like you were trying to make a point and make you feel better.

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I dont see the big deal with Jen, Holly or whoever she's supposed to be. She served her purpose as a friend of Selinas. She was there to show that she helps Selina (and vice versa) & to show how Selina doesn't want this kind of storm to go down in Gotham. Jen is all for it, and Selina starts changing her mind, slowly. She didn't need resolution because it's not about her, it's about Selina.

I was under the impression that this blonde chick followed her around and Selina almost mentored her in being a thief. Then something changes. Selina leaves her behind in Gotham because when the chips were down, those civilized people DID eat each other. And you find out who people really are in those moments. She found out what kind of person Jen was during Bane's seige, just from that one scene they had together in that house/mansion. She moved on and said F' that and helped save the city with Batman AND left the city with Bruce.

Jen was there to serve a purpose in a very minor role. She didn't need Coleman Reese or Foleys arc. I see Selina leaving her behind cuz it's a reminder of who she once was, like Bruce leaving all of Gotham behind. So her role was significant to me. It served the bigger picture of the story.
But that's really the thing. We can all speculate on Selina just leaving her behind, but we don't see any fallout between someone that is all for this "storm" and someone that is starting to change her mind. It would've made more of an impact, imo, if Selina confronted someone that she protected and allowed into her life with the knowledge that she doesn't want this life anymore and she's not going to be part of the "storm".

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Old 01-22-2013, 04:32 PM   #348
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Even a minor character like Coleman Reese had more character than Jen and THAT'S why she's THAT terrible. She seems like she wants to be a part of this "storm" that came and then when it seems like there will be a rift between Selina and Jen...Jen is just gone.

Jen was a character that was there for Selina and then she was just gone. She was worse than just a minor character or a side character or what have you. She was more than just a character like Barsad but she had less impact than Gordon's kids in TDK's final scene.
Hell, even the falafel guy had more development than her. At least we found out that he has kids to feed.

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Old 01-22-2013, 05:28 PM   #349
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I dont see the big deal with Jen, Holly or whoever she's supposed to be. She served her purpose as a friend of Selinas. She was there to show that she helps Selina (and vice versa) & to show how Selina doesn't want this kind of storm to go down in Gotham. Jen is all for it, and Selina starts changing her mind, slowly. She didn't need resolution because it's not about her, it's about Selina.

I was under the impression that this blonde chick followed her around and Selina almost mentored her in being a thief. Then something changes. Selina leaves her behind in Gotham because when the chips were down, those civilized people DID eat each other. And you find out who people really are in those moments. She found out what kind of person Jen was during Bane's seige, just from that one scene they had together in that house/mansion. She moved on and said F' that and helped save the city with Batman AND left the city with Bruce.

Jen was there to serve a purpose in a very minor role. She didn't need Coleman Reese or Foleys arc. I see Selina leaving her behind cuz it's a reminder of who she once was, like Bruce leaving all of Gotham behind. So her role was significant to me. It served the bigger picture of the story.
Exactly. You'd swear Jen was prominent character who contributed something important to the story like Reese did. All Jen did was pinch a wallet, hand Selina an envelope, and enjoy the revolution in Gotham.

We didn't need to see any ending with her.

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Resolution of being there when the "storm" happens and Selina seemingly wants out. No fallout or anything of what seemed to be a friendship and of what seemed to be Selina having been Jen's protector during the film. Nothing. THAT resolution was needed if you ask me.
What are you talking about? She WAS there when the storm happened. So was Selina. The only time Selina decided to rebel and get out was when she found out the city was going to get blown up. Even then she was just going to save her own skin until Batman appealed to her better nature.

The only quibble I'd give you is on Selina's behalf for not taking Jen with her when she found that out. She was going to leave her to die. But that's a fault with Selina's character, not Jen's. Jen was oblivious to the bomb threat.

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Something more than just Jen asking Selina if that's what she wanted and then Jen vanishing from then on.
She didn't ask her what she wanted, she said to Selina this is what she wanted.

Jen obviously had no problems with the way Gotham was. So there was nothing to resolve with her.

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I need to explain myself over and over with you? If you don't get it twice when I've mentioned it, a third time won't help.
You're right. It won't.

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Barsad's resolution was us seeing him die. At least Nolan decided to give some minor characters their conclusion.
How is that a resolution? He's just shot. You're unhappy with Nolan leaving it that Jen was happy with how Gotham was under Bane's rule, but Barsard just being shot down is a nice resolution for you.

You see why I don't get your logic.

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Bringing it up just seemed like you were trying to make a point and make you feel better.
You're the one who brought up the point of Foley being tolerable to some, Anno. Not me. I just responded to a point you raised to me.

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Old 01-22-2013, 05:47 PM   #350
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

Quote:
At first, he represents the way most of Gotham would have felt about Batman, otherwise known as "the guy who murdered Harvey Dent (our hero) and a bunch of cops in cold blood".
Except that he doesn't really, as there's not really any exploration of the concept whatsoever. He represents how Foley feels about Batman. Nevermind that saying "Batman is a villain" is kind of redundant filmwise after the Mayor gives a speech about how Dent was betrayed murdered by this "thug". Also, the whole police force chases Batman, so that kind of represents how they feel about him. Foley becomes somewhat redundant in that case.

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However, after the city learns the truth about Dent's murder...and after months of living in terror, Batman returns to Gotham with his symbol publicly emblazoned for Bane and his army to see.
Which means exactly that. Hell, for all the people of Gotham know, the Bat-symbol just means "Ha ha! I, Batman was behind Bane's occupation of your city, and now I will create this flaming symbol to show you just that!"

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Batman was showing that the city wasn't going to go down in flames without a fight.
Even though the city pretty much did. I'm curious how a flaming Bat-emblem inherently shows that.

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Batman was not afraid of Bane and his army. This is enough to inspire Foley to come out of hiding and fight for his city, as I'm sure Batman inspired others.
Or...a combination of Gordon's encounter with Foley coupled with knowing Batman was back was...although something people seem to miss the point on is that Foley being inspired by Batman's return makes no sense, as he thought Batman was a murderous thug, and I'm hard pressed to remember a sequence in the film where anything else is shown, except when Batman fights with the police, which is after Foley made his choice to stand with them in the first place. What's with Foley's sudden trust in Batman?

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I think the biggest misfire with Foley was his casting. Not the right actor for the role, IMO.
The biggest misfire with Foley is that the writing is half-baked. There's supposed to be an emotional payoff to Foley's final stand/sacrifice, but really you just think "Well, he's slightly less of a dick now for actually doing his job".

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Alfred is the one to refer the police as "bloated" in the film.
Yes, in regard to the merry chase. Pretty sure he's talking about the fact that there were tons and tons of police cars, etc after Batman. Not the state of the police in general.

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It's hinted at in all sorts of ways. Gordon is made fun of by the congressman for being so vigilant ("Hasn't he seen the numbers?").
Except that that's a congressman, not a cop. Its not any indication that the police force itself is bloated, complacent, or cocky.

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The way Foley turns a blind eye to the explosion in the sewer and doesn't send anyone down to rescue Gordon.
That's basically just Foley being grossly incompetent and a dick.

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I think the fact that they responded so quickly for the congressman speaks to the fact that it was Gordon still calling the shots and it was a case he had his eye on.
Which is all well and good. My point is that the sequence doesn't show a police force that is bloated, cocky or complacent, but one that is on top of things.

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I just don't think the point of his "choice" was to get us to care about him so much as it was to allow us to witness the power of Batman's symbol over someone so seemingly unlikable and cowardly.
Who really had no reason to be inspired by Batman to begin with.

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So yeah, the ideas behind his character could have been spread across random cops throughout the movie, but by consolidating it into one character I think there is more gained than lost.
We gained a crappy caricature...er, character.

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The way the story is structured, with Gordon being hospitalized and the scale of the things that happen, we had to see who was out in the field calling the shots in his absence.
And that person apparently had to be a blithering idiot, because only a blithering idiot could make Gordon look competent...

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The character was a functional cog in the wheel of the story. Perfunctory? Maybe. That doesn't make it "atrocious", "terrible", "awful" or any of the other harsh words that have been thrown around.
Correct. What makes it atrocious, terrible, etc, is the fact that tonally, his character barely fits the film he's in, he's incredibly poorly and broadly written, which makes him come across as a caricature of a cop, and his character's "exploration" consists of half-baked ideas and seemingly random resolutions about his few issues which make little to no sense in context.

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Being under-developed makes guys like Flint Marko and Eddie Brock, Jr. terrible in Spider-Man 3, so why doesn't the same apply to Jen?
Because Jen isn't the main character in a film, but a plot device that is more an extension of a main character, in this case, Selina.

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No Deputy Commisioner is going to be portrayed as competent With Gordon around.
Because apparently only being temporarily replaced by a blithering idiot could make Gordon look good by comparison. If anything, it would have been more impressive if Gordon's temporary replacement was COMPETENT, so there'd be at least SOME associated dramatic potential to "Will Gordon retire"?

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Basically, he made a play for Gordons job and as a result we got our first look at The Bat!
I didn't really see Foley making a play for Gordon's job. His character might have been a bit more interesting if he had. The film makes it fairly clear that Foley was more or less next in line anyway, and sooner rather than later.

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Writer and Lyricist of GOTHAM'S KNIGHT: THE BATMAN MUSICAL

And if I'm right
The future's looking bright
A symbol in the skies at night

Last edited by The Guard; 01-22-2013 at 05:53 PM.
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