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Old 02-25-2013, 12:00 PM   #851
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

You know what this thread needs?

More Blake!



BTW: I think 'John' should've been something else that is inspired by a past Robin such as Blake had to be inspired by Drake.

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Old 02-25-2013, 12:02 PM   #852
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

^ John is actually Dick Grayson's middle name. So actually Blake and Dick share the same middle name

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Old 02-25-2013, 12:03 PM   #853
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

Oh really?

I didn't know that, haha.

Thanks!

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Old 02-25-2013, 12:04 PM   #854
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No prob. Very little known fact...shows that they definitely did their research when creating this character.

Another thing I think about that I'm not sure is intentional is how he becomes a detective (which "Dick" is a nickname for) in the film. So if you really wanted to, you could call him Dick Robin John Blake, lol.

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Old 02-25-2013, 12:05 PM   #855
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Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
That's your interpretation and I don't buy that for a minute. The whole monologue was constructed around Blake saying he knew Bruce was Batman and his explanation of the orphanage scene seemed rather obvious that he was he was telling Bruce how he found out; by recognizing a look on his face. Saying "I knew who you were" doesn't imply to me that he knew the smile was fake. It explicitly implies he was saying I knew you were Batman.

Otherwise what other evidence, apart from a phony smile from a man who is publicly known to have lost his parents when he was a child, did Blake get to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Bruce Wayne is Batman? He doesn't offer any other than the orphanage scene. The whole basis of his knowing Bruce is Batman is on that look he recognized. Hiding pain = being Batman apparently to Blake.

I'm sorry but I don't think anyone is missing any point because your interpretation of the monologue is something I have never seen put forth by anyone when describing that scene because it just does not come across that way.
I think you're wrong ( i guess we'll have to agree to disagree). He doesnt say "i knew u were Batman then and there" he says right then i knew who you really were. If you can't look past the surface of that then like i said before, i feel sorry for you and the others. You're not understanding the scene at all. "Hiding pain = being Batman apparently to Blake." - really? that tells me that you just simply didn't understand the monologue and what he was saying.

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Originally Posted by georgec View Post
^ Exactly, shauner. The initial hunch was that Bruce wasn't the airhead rich guy he presented to people. It was that Bruce was a deeper, more conflicted and troubled personality.

Much of the film's nitpicks can be attributed to people going in with very strict, comic-derived expectations. When things didn't turn out the way they expected, they sought ways to rationalize how much they didn't like the film. Hence, they seek every possible reason to complain, when most of these ridiculous conversations have very direct, logical, obvious answers.
Well said!

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Wow, in all my exhaustive posts on this issue I failed to point out what you just did shauner, which is probably the best point I've seen yet. That's spot on.
Thanks, it's how ive always seen that monologue from Blake.

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Maybe some people don’t enjoy awkwardly introduced, contrived emotion, but prefer genuine development of emotional elements instead of just being told how people feel and how they're similar, instead of shown these things in a more organic way. Just a thought.
I dont think it's awkwardly introduced, contrived emotion or non-genuine whatsoever. So me and those people will have to agree to disagree i guess.

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Originally Posted by TheBat812 View Post
If you honestly deny that what shauner said is at the very least a possibility (and in my mind, he's nailed what the core of the scene is about, given that Nolan has established that being Batman is a reaction to personal trauma, not just some silly identity), than not much to talk about here. What you always do in your analyses is take what they're saying at straight up face value with very little understanding of subtext and intention. As shauner pointed out, what Blake "knew" was that they shared the same deep pain that few others know. This is what connects them. That figurative mask they show the world. The leap to him being Batman is a logical one once, as shauner explained, that connection was made.


Here's the full quote for good measure:

If you notice the structure, it's never directly about Batman the figure, but about two people who've dealt with pain with no real outlet to truly manifest that in. These two people who faced injustices as young boys, and because of the people they looked up to in their lives (for Bruce, it's his father, for Blake, Batman) it manifested itself in a need for justice. Batman was Bruce's outlet, just as becoming a cop was Blake's. I honestly think if Nolan had given us a quick silent sequence over his monologue where we actually SEE this moment, people would have bought it alot more, but it wasn't a necessity.
This is ABSOLUTELY the problem here. It's always on the surface for alot of these people on this board, and art is more than that. I would honestly love to hear what everybodys favorite films, writers and filmmakers are outside of superhero movies because it seems to me like people only look at what's on the surface.

Subtext and intention are a big part of Nolans movies.


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Old 02-25-2013, 12:11 PM   #856
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

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That's your interpretation and I don't buy that for a minute. The whole monologue was constructed around Blake saying he knew Bruce was Batman and his explanation of the orphanage scene seemed rather obvious that he was he was telling Bruce how he found out; by recognizing a look on his face. Saying "I knew who you were" doesn't imply to me that he knew the smile was fake. It explicitly implies he was saying I knew you were Batman.

Otherwise what other evidence, apart from a phony smile from a man who is publicly known to have lost his parents when he was a child, did Blake get to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Bruce Wayne is Batman? He doesn't offer any other than the orphanage scene. The whole basis of his knowing Bruce is Batman is on that look he recognized. Hiding pain = being Batman apparently to Blake.
Absolutely.

The scene makes it very clear. Blake was explaining how he knew Bruce was Batman - Gordon didn't tell him. It was during that one meeting with Bruce at the orphanage that he figured it out. And it was about the most lame explanation for how someone knew Bruce was Batman that I've ever seen.

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Old 02-25-2013, 12:21 PM   #857
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No prob. Very little known fact...shows that they definitely did their research when creating this character.

Another thing I think about that I'm not sure is intentional is how he becomes a detective (which "Dick" is a nickname for) in the film. So if you really wanted to, you could call him Dick Robin John Blake, lol.
Well, we know Einhorn would've called him Dick, lol.

In all seriousness, Grayson is an actual detective anyways, isn't he? Or at least was.

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Old 02-25-2013, 12:24 PM   #858
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

Who ever tried to argue that Gordon told him?

*Sigh*. The thing is, some of us interpret the scene as Blake explaining the moment that planted the initial seed in his mind that Bruce Wayne could be Batman. While others take him to mean that he instantly knew he was running around in the cape and cowl without letting the idea fester for some time or doing any additional thinking on the matter. You can't definitely prove either, but the fact is he had an 8 years to stew on the bombshell of a notion that the city's most infamous billionaire playboy:

- Looked the part
- Had the motive
- Had the money
- Was not as carefree as he was pretending
- Was mysteriously missing for 7 years and returned to Gotham within months of the Batman's first appearance

And that's all without lifting a finger and just being wiling to consider these significant factors that are staring him in the face.


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Well, we know Einhorn would've called him Dick, lol.

In all seriousness, Grayson is an actual detective anyways, isn't he? Or at least was.
Ace Ventura reference FTW!

But yeah, in the Nightwing comics Grayson was a cop in Blüdhaven at one point.

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Old 02-25-2013, 12:29 PM   #859
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Who ever tried to argue that Gordon told him?

*Sigh*. The thing is, some of us interpret the scene as Blake explaining the moment that planted the initial seed in his mind that Bruce Wayne could be Batman. While others take him to mean that he instantly knew he was running around in the cape and cowl without letting the idea fester for some time or doing any additional thinking on the matter. You can't definitely prove either, but the fact is he had an 8 years to stew on the bombshell of a notion that the city's most infamous billionaire playboy:

- Looked the part
- Had the motive
- Had the money
- Was not as carefree as he was pretending
- Was mysteriously missing for 7 years and returned to Gotham within months of the Batman's first appearance

And that's all without lifting a finger and just being wiling to stare what's obvious in the face.




Ace Ventura reference FTW!

But yeah, in the Nightwing comics Grayson was a cop in Blüdhaven at one point.
Exactly. And while anybody else might've also been able to put those pieces together, not many would ever even have that idea in their head, because they're merely seeing billionaire playboy/surface Bruce, not the man hiding the pain behind a facade. Only those like Blake would have that opportunity, and what makes Blake special is that he has his own fortitude to actually do something about it, to confront his fallen hero from hiding in the shadows instead of acting to improve things.

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Old 02-25-2013, 01:14 PM   #860
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I think you're wrong ( i guess we'll have to agree to disagree). He doesnt say "i knew u were Batman then and there" he says right then i knew who you really were. If you can't look past the surface of that then like i said before, i feel sorry for you and the others.
I can't look past the surface because there is no surface to look past. The Guard said it to you best:

Quote:
Given the context of the scene, he likely means both “I knew you were someone like me, who hid their true self" and “I knew you were Batman”.

That’s how the film presents it. That’s probably why people don’t look past the “surface” of his monologue. Because that’s all there was. Surface. Exposition. We are directly TOLD what happened and how he figured it out.
That's the way it was presented. So please keep your condescending "I feel sorry for you and others". It's not needed or appreciated.

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You're not understanding the scene at all. "Hiding pain = being Batman apparently to Blake." - really? that tells me that you just simply didn't understand the monologue and what he was saying.
All it tells me is you're seeing something that is not there. Nolan is not subtle when it comes to things like this. He is the king of expository dialogue. He lays it all out for you.

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Absolutely.

The scene makes it very clear. Blake was explaining how he knew Bruce was Batman. It was during that one meeting with Bruce at the orphanage that he figured it out. And it was about the most lame explanation for how someone knew Bruce was Batman that I've ever seen.
Well said

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Old 02-25-2013, 01:29 PM   #861
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

What exactly is Nolan subtle at then? How do we define his subtlety? Dialogue aside, he has definitely been acclaimed for his subtlety as a filmmaker and in trusting the audience to engage with the material and put things together for themselves. It's one of the big reasons I'm a fan of his. It's the reason why so many of us are quick to dive into subtext when it comes to TDKR. It's loaded with it.

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Old 02-25-2013, 01:32 PM   #862
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What exactly is Nolan subtle at then? How do we define his subtlety? Dialogue aside, he has definitely been acclaimed for his subtlety as a filmmaker and in trusting the audience to engage with the material and put things together for themselves. It's the reason why so many of us are quick to dive into subtext when it comes to TDKR. It's loaded with it.
I see his subtlety in scenes like this:

Batman: "What happened to Rachel wasn't chance. We decided to act. We three"
Dent: "Then why was it me who was the only one who lost everything?"
Batman: ".....it wasn't"

Nice subtle line there that Bruce also lost Rachel, too, because he loved her as much as Harvey did. Underrated great acting moment from Bale, too.

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Old 02-25-2013, 01:37 PM   #863
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I see his subtlety in scenes like this:

Batman: "What happened to Rachel wasn't chance. We decided to act. We three"
Dent: "Then why was it me who was the only one who lost everything?"
Batman: ".....it wasn't"

Nice subtle line there that Bruce also lost Rachel, too, because he loved her as much as Harvey did. Underrated great acting moment from Bale, too.
I would agree. Good example of a very quick exchange that expresses a lot of drama.

It's really the little moments and subtle details (in all areas) that make the trilogy special for me.

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Old 02-25-2013, 03:17 PM   #864
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

I think we're destined to do this forever.

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Old 02-25-2013, 03:22 PM   #865
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I think we're destined to do this forever.
I kinda understand why Bruce wanted to quit

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Old 02-25-2013, 03:43 PM   #866
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

Where did the photo thread go?

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Old 02-25-2013, 07:25 PM   #867
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The leap to him being Batman is a logical one once, as shauner explained, that connection was made.
No, it’s not a logical leap. PLENTY of people hide who they are, and hide pain, and some of them are wealthy? Are they all likely to be Batman, too?

Quote:
If you notice the structure, it's never directly about Batman the figure, but about two people who've dealt with pain with no real outlet to truly manifest that in.
No, it’s very much about Batman the figure as well.

Quote:
I think you're wrong ( i guess we'll have to agree to disagree). He doesnt say "i knew u were Batman then and there" he says right then i knew who you really were. If you can't look past the surface of that then like i said before, i feel sorry for you and the others. You're not understanding the scene at all. "Hiding pain = being Batman apparently to Blake." - really? that tells me that you just simply didn't understand the monologue and what he was saying.
That’s part of what the scene was saying. It may ALSO have referred to their commonalities. But that’s very much what it was saying. That he knows Bruce was Batman because of their shared experiences, because he recognized them in himself and in Bruce.

In the scene, Blake says “I knew who you were”. Not “what you were”. Not “how you felt”. Not “that you felt like me”.

“I knew who you were”.

You know what’s most telling about the intent of the scene? About its meaning? It’s a separate thought from the rest of what Blake says. He makes separate points about how HE felt, about how he realized how Bruce felt, and then about “who” he realized Bruce was. They are separate thoughts. Otherwise, he’s rambling on redundantly. He wasn’t, he was coming to a series of points. One of his points is that he knows who Batman is.

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Subtext and intention are a big part of Nolans movies.
Yes. But he doesn’t use subtext every time. And when he does, you can’t just force what you want it to mean into what the subtext actually means in context.

Quote:
- Looked the part
- Had the motive
- Had the money
- Was not as carefree as he was pretending
- Was mysteriously missing for 7 years and returned to Gotham within months of the Batman's first appearance

And that's all without lifting a finger and just being wiling to consider these significant factors that are staring him in the face.
And yet none of this, other than Bruce being rich and not being as carefree as he was pretending to be (probably the LEAST telling thing that would tip someone off that someone was Batman), was even remotely hinted at in Blake’s speech to Bruce. Would have been nice if it had been. Would have brought things full circle even more.

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What exactly is Nolan subtle at then?
Story and writingwise? Very little.

His directing has visual subtleties to it, as almost ANY good director’s work does.

His actors often bring subtlety to their roles, but not as a whole. It’s clear that he just hires some very good actors who understand the subtle approach more than he injects any real subtlety into his directing of actors.

But the writing? Usually about as subtle as a sledgehammer.

Quote:
Dialogue aside, he has definitely been acclaimed for his subtlety as a filmmaker and in trusting the audience to engage with the material and put things together for themselves. It's one of the big reasons I'm a fan of his. It's the reason why so many of us are quick to dive into subtext when it comes to TDKR. It's loaded with it.
May he shouldn’t be so lauded for it, then. Not anymore, at least. He trusts the audience to engage and put it together for themselves when he outright tells them what’s going on and usually puts it together for them?

Also, subtext isn’t necessarily “subtlety”. This is the thing some people don’t seem to grasp.

When a plumber says “I’ll fix your pipes for you, ma’am” in a lecherous manner, there’s subtext there, but ain’t nothin’ subtle about it.

Quote:
Nice subtle line there that Bruce also lost Rachel, too, because he loved her as much as Harvey did. Underrated great acting moment from Bale, too.
That’s not really all that subtle, either. What would have been truly subtle is if Batman had just not said anything, and you saw the pain in his eyes, and then he put aside his pain to try to help Harvey.

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Dibs on being the unstoppable force.

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Old 02-25-2013, 09:15 PM   #868
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

Anyone else find it weird how TDKR doesn't have that one quote, that's repeated twice, which can totally sum up the entire movie?

BB - "It's not who you are underneath; it's what you do that defines you"

TDK - "You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain"

I know the BB quote was said slightly different when Batman recited it, but the meaning was still in tact.

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Old 02-25-2013, 09:32 PM   #869
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

"You have my permission to die."


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Old 02-25-2013, 09:33 PM   #870
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"You have my permission to die."

lol!

Yeah, close but no cigar!

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Old 02-25-2013, 09:53 PM   #871
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

Well, it's not a verbatim repeat but we have "Batman could be anyone" and then later "A hero can be anyone". It's harder to sum up TDKR in a single sentence, but it's definitely one of the major themes of the film.

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And yet none of this, other than Bruce being rich and not being as carefree as he was pretending to be (probably the LEAST telling thing that would tip someone off that someone was Batman), was even remotely hinted at in Blake’s speech to Bruce. Would have been nice if it had been. Would have brought things full circle even more.
And this is precisely the kind of instance I'm talking about where I feel Nolan allows things to be left unsaid because they're easily figured out by the audience. And even if Blake had mentioned all of those things, the same people would probably still have problems with the scene because it's ultimately the premise of Blake being able to figure out Batman's identity rather easily and with emotional intelligence rather than intellect that people seem to have the major objection to.

I just find it hard to believe that Blake, a guy depicted as having good common sense, wouldn't have tried to rationalize his theory in any way in 8 years. The writing was on the wall.

And I guess I keep getting drawn back into this debate because I'm waiting for somebody to explain why that's an off-base assumption.

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Old 02-25-2013, 09:55 PM   #872
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

TDKR didn't have a specific quote said in that film but it does take in other infamous quote in the past two films to have the "full circle" notion: 'Why do we fall?' and 'Batman can be anyone.'

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Old 02-25-2013, 10:29 PM   #873
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

Actually, I found the parallel quotes that summarize the film:

"Someone get this hothead outta here!"

later...

"Remind me to tell detail to keep hotheads out."

(p.s. - good call on "Batman could be anyone"/"A hero can be anyone"; the script has an extra line where Batman tells Gordon, "That was always the point," or something similar.)

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Old 02-25-2013, 10:43 PM   #874
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

LOL @ the hot head quote. Foley was such a douche.

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Old 02-25-2013, 10:51 PM   #875
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

And I'm an idiot because the answer to the question was in my signature.

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A hero can be anyone. Even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat
around a young boy's shoulders to let him know the world hadn't ended.
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