The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

[The Guard]

Keeping bane alive would be a big mistake. He's a force to be reckoned with. You cant just lock up a guy like that and assume he's going to stay put forever. You can say the same for the Joker, but he's in Arkham and they can keep him down with drugs. Bane is a different story.

That's kind of the point. That's always been the point to be made about Batman's specific methods and modern morality. There are some incongruities to his actions. He believes not only that killing is wrong, and that he shouldn't be an executioner, but also that it is possible for those he opposes to get help, to redeem themselves, etc. And above all, he believes in justice, and ultimately, in the rule of law, even though he breaks it constantly. In taking this approach, he lets forces of potential evil survive, which threatens those he swore to protect, as well as those he loves. Its a powerful concept, and one that's not quite so black and white.

[Simple1dea]

I think Bane died that way partly because of a change of mood and character. Because of the increasing banter between Batman and Catwoman, she turned into a more free-spirit, comedic, punchline kinda character which is why Bane's death became a joke/fun moment: ''About this no-guns thing, I don't feel as strongly about it as you do''

As for Bane, towards the end Batman was given more leverage over Bane (maybe a bit too much) making Bane surprised of his return (ultimately bringing a new aspect to his character). Bane then became a more arrogant/cocky character making his defeat seem easy and then followed by his quick death.

I am only saying how I think Nolan thought it was acceptable, not how I thought it was good.

[BatLobsterRises]

Rises simply chose to make the climax more about whether Bruce will make the choice to die a good death or finally choose to live his life rather than the defeat of the villains.

As far as the philosophical side of things, I thought Talia's speech to Bruce checked that box. You learn how Bane truly is a dark mirror of Bruce, and how they are connected by an original impulse to protect innocence after having lost their own. But we learn a key difference between them in the climax too, that Bane was never able to rise from the darkness of the pit on his own, like Bruce was. You learn how Talia's actions also parallel Batman's- she is trying to honor her father, and doing so in an even more extreme fashion. She is like Bruce as a young and angry man- convinced that justice and revenge can be the same. Almost the evil Rachel to Bane's evil Bruce. The fact that she is carrying on her father's work drives home the idea about legacy, it shows that Ra's al Ghul is immortal and everlasting. It feeds right into why Batman must have a successor and brings the earliest ideas from Batman Begins roaring back full circle.

I dunno, TDKR is just so dense with ideas. Even if they're not being hammered over your head at all times, it's just bursting at the seams with them. The bomb itself is rather interesting from a philosophical standpoint. Bruce ran Wayne Enterprises into the ground with that fusion reactor. In that sense, it's really representative of what's left of his wealth, and highlights what a double-edged sword that Wayne money really is. How fitting that his last act as Batman (and indeed as Bruce Wayne) is flying it out over the bay. He couldn't ask for a more fitting and noble death. And yet he chooses to live.

[RustyCage]

Very good points, Lobster.

I only hesitate to take the pit escape so strongly as a philosophical statement about the difference between Bruce and Bane because Talia's able to hop right on outta there as a little girl.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by RustyCage

^ These two posts summarize it the best. It honestly just feels like squandered potential.

Begins made us a compelling promise for the series, that we would be playing with big villains that have big ideas, and the climax of these confrontations would mean something philosophically. Leave a mark on your mind. Batman will have accomplished more than just 'ok, I beat the bad guys' for a change.

The Dark Knight took that promise and ran it even further down the field, gave us something philosophically bigger with the climax. And not just with the Joker, but also Harvey.

Rises had the potential to keep doing that, but it simply dropped the idea. I cannot fathom why.

The original approach was why I had utter faith in Nolan. Even if I could nitpick little details about the first two movies that I would have done a bit differently, it was no biggie, because I thought I knew he would still pull off something that would blow me away overall in this regard.

But apparently the old promise got lost somewhere in the process of making Rises. Bane deserved more, especially because they had begun crafting such a unique, impressive new take on him. What a waste of potential gold...

I'm becoming more convinced that this ending needed to be a two-parter to get more across.

Nicely put

TDKR is loaded with wasted potential.

[RustyCage]

It frustrates me that so many important things could have been fleshed out better (it's not that they weren't suggested), and yet they took the time to over-state other things that should have been obvious.

Too subtle in some places, not subtle enough in others.

[Travesty]

Originally Posted by RustyCage

Too subtle in some places, not subtle enough in others.

You mean like the clean slate...the device that can electronically clear your name from every database in the world, so your name is clear from every crime ever committed?

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by RustyCage

Very good points, Lobster.

I only hesitate to take the pit escape so strongly as a philosophical statement about the difference between Bruce and Bane because Talia's able to hop right on outta there as a little girl.

True. I see it as more metaphorical than anything. The literal reason he wasn't able to escape was because his body was in too much pain after the doctor worked on him. But that leads us into the parallels of how Bane can't live without the mask, and how Bruce is able to eventually learn to live without his.

I would agree that Talia being able to hop out as a kid muddles the parallel a bit, although that was more an example of how powerful a motivator fear can be, she was a little girl frightened for her life. But Bruce has to make a conscious decision, which shows how he is able to truly and finally master fear. I think Bane would probably only see fear as a weakness.

I agree that Rises maybe over-explained certain things (not entirely unusual for Nolan), while being extremely subtle with others. The more subtle aspects, for me, really added to its intrigue though and built a world beyond the screen. I wouldn't necessarily want them more explained, as I've enjoyed reflecting on and discussing the movie almost as much as I did watching it.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Rises simply chose to make the climax more about whether Bruce will make the choice to die a good death or finally choose to live his life rather than the defeat of the villains.

As far as the philosophical side of things, I thought Talia's speech to Bruce checked that box. You learn how Bane truly is a dark mirror of Bruce, and how they are connected by an original impulse to protect innocence after having lost their own. But we learn a key difference between them in the climax too, that Bane was never able to rise from the darkness of the pit on his own, like Bruce was. You learn how Talia's actions also parallel Batman's- she is trying to honor her father, and doing so in an even more extreme fashion. She is like Bruce as a young and angry man- convinced that justice and revenge can be the same. Almost the evil Rachel to Bane's evil Bruce. The fact that she is carrying on her father's work drives home the idea about legacy, it shows that Ra's al Ghul is immortal and everlasting. It feeds right into why Batman must have a successor and brings the earliest ideas from Batman Begins roaring back full circle.

I dunno, TDKR is just so dense with ideas. Even if they're not being hammered over your head at all times, it's just bursting at the seams with them. The bomb itself is rather interesting from a philosophical standpoint. Bruce ran Wayne Enterprises into the ground with that fusion reactor. In that sense, it's really representative of what's left of his wealth, and highlights what a double-edged sword that Wayne money really is. How fitting that his last act as Batman (and indeed as Bruce Wayne) is flying it out over the bay. He couldn't ask for a more fitting and noble death. And yet he chooses to live.

Very nice

Never really thought of Talia being the evil Rachel to Bane's evil Bruce, but I can definitely see it.

While TDKR definitely needed more time(and I will always blame that on the IMAX run time and not on Nolan), I think we do have stuff in the film that should make us think and not tell us as Nolan does usually with over explaining to the viewer.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Raimi's Spider-Man trilogy has a worse rep for killing villains;

Green Goblin - Dead
Doc Ock - Dead
Venom -Dead
New Goblin - Dead

Only Sandman lived.

Everytime I take notice that Sandman is the one who flew away when he should be behind bars just pisses me off. It's like the moral of the story is if you seek forgiveness without doing all the time, you're dandy

Originally Posted by c4foco

Bane would be executed. He's not insane, he wouldn't go to Arkham.

This is a good point. The actually insane person was kept alive, Joker, while the people that can't really be deemed 'insane' died, such as Ra's, Talia, Dent, Bane, and the more or less minor guys like Crane and Zsaz survived as well(because, c'mon, any one will say Crane slowly becomes such a minor villain to a cameo like Zsaz). Even the mob bosses, who were all sane, died except for one so far that's insane still until proven(Falcone).

[Excelsior.]

I just posted this on the Cringeworthy Moments in Good Movies thread in the Misc forums.

Am I the only one incredibly baffled by Alfred's exposition on Bane's past? About his excommunication with Ras Al Ghul? How the heck did he know of these? Are Bane and Ras celebrities? Are their break up internet news? Isn't the League of Shadows a super secret organization that only the criminal underworld knows as myth?

That scene never fails to elicit a saddened laughter from me. Because that's exactly the kind of thing Nolan's haters exaggerate that he does. Only this time it is a baffling reality.

I always thought the scene with Harvey Dent, Rachel, Bruce and his Russian squeeze would be the lowest point in this series for me for blunt exposition. Fear not! Nolan surpassed it, with flying colors! This time it wasn't just blunt exposition, it made no sense whatsoever. Ras' personal history with Bane just shouldn't be information to be easily acquired.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Very nice

Never really thought of Talia being the evil Rachel to Bane's evil Bruce, but I can definitely see it.

And a weird thought I just had to go with that...Bruce is trapped down at the bottom of the well, Rachel goes and gets his father to rescue him. I honestly have no idea how intentional this was, but there's some sort of dark parallel there with Talia bringing her father back to rescue Bane from the pit. It fits the idea of the pit being a huge metaphor to the well Bruce fell down as a child. I love those sorts of vague echoes.

I think the "dark Rachel" idea really gets some traction in their love scene too, when Miranda sees Rachel's picture and Bruce turns it face down. Bruce very much tries to have Miranda replace Rachel as the woman he can one day have a normal life with. In this way I definitely think there are some important ties between Talia and Rachel.

Originally Posted by Excelsior.

I just posted this on the Cringeworthy Moments in Good Movies thread in the Misc forums.

Am I the only one incredibly baffled by Alfred's exposition on Bane's past? About his excommunication with Ras Al Ghul? How the heck did he know of these? Are Bane and Ras celebrities? Are their break up internet news? Isn't the League of Shadows a super secret organization that only the criminal underworld knows as myth?

That scene never fails to elicit a saddened laughter from me. Because that's exactly the kind of thing Nolan's haters exaggerate that he does. Only this time it is a baffling reality.

I don't think it's all that baffling. He has the Bat-computer. The Bat-computer has access to a lot of intelligence databases, surveillance videos ,etc. We see Alfred using it in The Dark Knight to obtain addresses from fingerprint data, just as we see Bruce doing in TDKR. Obviously it's not just a fancy computer with a few bells and whistles. It's a Big Brother type of machine. And yes, Bane and Ra's are both legends in their own right. There would likely be some intelligence on both of them. The movie already established that the CIA knew about Bane and knew he was a big shot mercenary. But there were still unknown elements- why he wears the mask, how he escaped the prison, what circumstances led to him being ex-communicated, etc.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Excelsior.

I just posted this on the Cringeworthy Moments in Good Movies thread in the Misc forums.

Am I the only one incredibly baffled by Alfred's exposition on Bane's past? About his excommunication with Ras Al Ghul? How the heck did he know of these? Are Bane and Ras celebrities? Are their break up internet news? Isn't the League of Shadows a super secret organization that only the criminal underworld knows as myth?

That scene never fails to elicit a saddened laughter from me. Because that's exactly the kind of thing Nolan's haters exaggerate that he does. Only this time it is a baffling reality.

I always thought the scene with Harvey Dent, Rachel, Bruce and his Russian squeeze would be the lowest point in this series for me for blunt exposition. Fear not! Nolan surpassed it, with flying colors! This time it wasn't just blunt exposition, it made no sense whatsoever. Ras' personal history with Bane just shouldn't be information to be easily acquired.

With Bruce being able to have more ways to hide his vehicles around Gotham or being able to control all the lights in the sewers now, I wouldn't be surprised that Bruce has a computer database where he could find stuff out about the League of Shadows' past and guys like Bane that is known as even that CIA agent quickly knew something about him.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

And a weird thought I just had to go with that...Bruce is trapped down at the bottom of the well, Rachel goes and gets his father to rescue him. I honestly have no idea how intentional this was, but there's some sort of dark parallel there with Talia bringing her father back to rescue Bane from the pit. It fits the idea of the pit being a huge metaphor to the well Bruce fell down as a child. I love those sorts of vague echoes.

I think the "dark Rachel" idea really gets some traction in their love scene too, when Miranda sees Rachel's picture and Bruce turns it face down. Bruce very much tries to have Miranda replace Rachel as the woman he can one day have a normal life with. In this way I definitely think there are some important ties between Talia and Rachel.

Hahaha, another thing I never thought of. Quite interesting how both Rachel and Talia rushed to find their fathers(Thomas and Ra's).

[Excelsior.]

I don't think it's all that baffling. He has the Bat-computer. The Bat-computer has access to a lot of intelligence databases, surveillance videos ,etc. We see Alfred using in The Dark Knight to obtain addresses from fingerprint data, just as we see Bruce doing in TDKR. Obviously it's not just a fancy computer with a few bells and whistles. It's a Big Brother type of machine.

it's not about the ability to attain information. It's about that information existing in accountable form in the first place. If Bane's fallout with Ras is known to the CIA, then does Batman's own adventures in the League also known? Is Batman's identity also known by the CIA?

[MagnarTheGreat]

Yeah that exposition should have been cut out or heavily modified. It's just introduced as a pack of rumors that is just repeated later on (or possibly contradicted) in the movie anyway, so what the hell was the point?

Alfred got his info either from TMZ or the CIA/MI6, I guess. Or copies of Bane: Rumors For Dummies are just flying off the shelves or are downloadable from iTunes or Amazon.

What's odd is that there was exposition like that in David Goyer's draft script for Batman Begins about Ra's when they meet in the prison, but it didn't make it into further revisions to the script by Nolan.

[Anno_Domini]

Bane's upbringing under the League could've been from a different source, but Ra's being the leader of the League, Bane supposedly being the leader of his own militia...I wouldn't be surprised if the CIA are aware of these two, just not Bruce having been taught by the League.

[BatLobsterRises]

Yeah, I'd have to say they clearly didn't know that Bruce Wayne had trained with the League otherwise he'd have been taken in for questioning and likely figured out.

I think the idea is that Bane's legend had spread throughout the world, as he was an international mercenary. If anything, Bane himself probably would have used his prison upbringing and League of Shadows background to beef up his image. So that gets passed around, eventually the intelligence agencies would have a vague profile on the guy. It's really not that inconceivable.

[Anita18]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Yeah, I'd have to say they clearly didn't know that Bruce Wayne had trained with the League otherwise he'd have been taken in for questioning and likely figured out.

I think the idea is that Bane's legend had spread throughout the world, as he was an international mercenary. If anything, Bane himself probably would have used his prison upbringing and League of Shadows background to beef up his image. So that gets passed around, eventually the intelligence agencies would have a vague profile on the guy. It's really not that inconceivable.

Yeah, Bane wanted to be known and feared.

And I don't think he would let himself be taken alive anyway.

[Excelsior.]

If the Pit is known by the CIA then why don't they storm the place because it is not confined to the legal jurisdiction of any country and is a clear form of illegal restriction? I guess they don't know of the super secret place it is under. But that begs the question of how the rumor got started in the first place? Because as we know, only two have climbed out of it, Talia and Wayne. Everyone else rotted in there.

[BatLobsterRises]

Well anyone who worked under the warlord in X Middle Eastern country would probably know of the Pit's existence, so there's plenty of room for word to spread there. I'm actually not so sure it wasn't under the jurisdiction of any country though. It seemed to be that it's either in an unnamed or entirely fictional country. This was probably just done to avoid any unwanted controversy. After all, Ra's is never given a specific country of origin in the comics either. I think in Birth of the Demon they actually do refer to it as "A more ancient part of the world". 24 usually used fictional Middle Eastern countries in their plots too for the same sorts of reasons.

[Matt Mortem]

Originally Posted by Travesty

You mean like the clean slate...the device that can electronically clear your name from every database in the world, so your name is clear from every crime ever committed?

I still cringe when I think of that.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Very nice

Never really thought of Talia being the evil Rachel to Bane's evil Bruce, but I can definitely see it.

I'm not convinced personally that their relationship is at all romantic.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by Travesty

You mean like the clean slate...the device that can electronically clear your name from every database in the world, so your name is clear from every crime ever committed?

Yeah, that was actually one of the most unbelievable parts of the film for me. I kept thinking to myself "what about the hard copies?"

[Excelsior.]

I actually don't have a problem with the clean slate line. Yes, it served, as exposition, but it also served as characterization. Dagget was mocking Selina by being cutely blunt; she was cornered. The fact that it served as exposition was a plus.

The early cave stuff with Bruce and Alfred are wretched however. I liked that Bruce is the one to find out about Selina with his super Bat computer, but then he proceeds to explain it to the audience Alfred in the what can be described as nothing other than naked exposition. Close your eyes when that part arrives in your next viewing, Bruce is talking to you, not having a natural conversation with Alfred.