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Old 02-21-2013, 07:36 PM   #376
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

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Harry's butler is easily the worst thing ever in the trilogy. He knows about the wounds and doesn't tell a ****ing soul for two and a half years

That beats the symbiote randomly landing near Peter. At least that goes in stride with the "Peter Parker luck".

I'll agree fully on that one. As much as I like Spider-man 3 that butler scene still makes me angry. It's like Raimi and the writers said to themselves," Crap. There's only 10-15 minutes left in this movie and we haven't even touched upon Harry finding out the truth about his father and forgiving Peter. Well,we'll just have the butler give some crappy explaination and Harry will suddenly do a 180 degree turn and everything will be good again."

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Old 02-22-2013, 12:24 PM   #377
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

And at least in TDKR, when Alfred doesn't tell everything about Rachel to Bruce for those eight years, he finally does so once Bruce returns as Batman feeling he(Alfred) needs to say or do whatever to finally make Bruce move on...Harry's Butler? Waits until Harry gets ****ed up in the face

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Old 02-22-2013, 12:44 PM   #378
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Yeah, Alfred letting Bruce wallow in misery for 8 years thinking his only chance at a normal life passed him by is so much better

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Old 02-22-2013, 12:47 PM   #379
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Tbh, "Parker Luck" still isn't an excuse for the symbiote landing near Peter. Especially since they've introduced Jameson's boy, the astronaut. Instead of the pointless crane action sequence, the shuttle crash with the symbiote could've been used. Or, there was that theory that John Jameson already had the symbiote when he made that crazy jump at the dock at the end of Spider-Man 2.

I feel dense for only just realizing this, but did Captain Stacey tell Peter and May about Marko's escape as a warning? Like "This guy killed your uncle/husband, so he might be gunning for you two as well?"

@Joker: Didn't Bruce use WE's clean energy project as an expy for moonlighting as Batman, until Pavel's research was published? If that is the case, then Bruce was at least out in the world as Bruce Wayne the businessman, not Bruce Wayne trying to rediscover himself as Batman.

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Old 02-22-2013, 01:13 PM   #380
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

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Yeah, Alfred letting Bruce wallow in misery for 8 years thinking his only chance at a normal life passed him by is so much better
Only he didn't because it is clearly stated that Alfred was looking out for Bruce.

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Old 02-22-2013, 01:18 PM   #381
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

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@Joker: Didn't Bruce use WE's clean energy project as an expy for moonlighting as Batman, until Pavel's research was published? If that is the case, then Bruce was at least out in the world as Bruce Wayne the businessman, not Bruce Wayne trying to rediscover himself as Batman.
Yeah, a business project. That's not a life.

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Only he didn't because it is clearly stated that Alfred was looking out for Bruce.
By letting him think he lost his only chance at a normal life for 8 years? I'm sure Harry's butler thought he was doing good, too, by not tarnishing the memory of Harry's father for him.

Both of them made bad decisions. Alfred should have told Bruce the truth the moment he saw him giving up on trying to find love somewhere else, just like the butler should have told Harry the truth the moment he saw him sinking into booze and making deals with six armed super villains. It's one thing to try and spare someone pain, but when you see depriving them of the truth is doing more harm than good, that's when you tell them the truth.

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Old 02-22-2013, 01:50 PM   #382
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

I don't want to derail the thread, but it is hinted that Alfred was trying for Bruce to move on. And he made a choice that he thought it was the best at that time, just as Bruce did. And Bruce tried to move on, and at the same time Alfred keep trying to uplift him.

She's very persistent. And quite lovely, in case you were wondering.

"So now you're trying to set me up with a jewel thief?"

And that last sentence you said, it is true. That's one of the points Rises states. "Maybe it's time we all stopped trying to outsmart the truth and let it have its day."

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Old 02-22-2013, 02:01 PM   #383
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Yeah I know Alfred had been trying to get him to move on. After 8 years he was getting desperate if he was suggesting a jewel thief. The point is once you see the lie is doing more harm than good, in this case causing Bruce to give up on love altogether, then you tell the truth. You don't leave it for years.

Alfred's deception was no better than Bernard the butler's.

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Old 02-22-2013, 02:08 PM   #384
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

I still will give Alfred the upper hand on this. In my opinion, the truth about Rachel's letter wasn't a topic that you could drop out at dinner. Just like Gordon with his speech, I think Alfred wanted to tell him more than anything but it was a tough thing to do.

At least we can agree that the execution in S-M3 was very very poor.

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Old 02-22-2013, 02:10 PM   #385
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

The problem with the Butler thing is that it seemingly came out of nowhere. At least with Alfred, you knew why he kept it a secret for so long.

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Old 02-22-2013, 02:16 PM   #386
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Yes, Spider-Man 3's was worse because there was no preludes to it. It was a real deux ex machina plot device.

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Old 02-22-2013, 03:18 PM   #387
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

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Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Yeah, Alfred letting Bruce wallow in misery for 8 years thinking his only chance at a normal life passed him by is so much better


That is Alfred's fault? That Bruce didn't move on because he believed Rachel was his only shot of a life? Bruce only had a fantasy of moving on with someone that backed out of anything with him. It's not Alfred's fault because he wanted to keep something a secret to only protect; Harry's butler was keeping a secret that only made things worse that he finally revealed, as I said, when half of Harry's face was blown off.

Let alone, Wayne was at least going on with life in other ways, to which he ****ed up himself in the end(the clean energy project).

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Tbh, "Parker Luck" still isn't an excuse for the symbiote landing near Peter. Especially since they've introduced Jameson's boy, the astronaut. Instead of the pointless crane action sequence, the shuttle crash with the symbiote could've been used. Or, there was that theory that John Jameson already had the symbiote when he made that crazy jump at the dock at the end of Spider-Man 2.

I feel dense for only just realizing this, but did Captain Stacey tell Peter and May about Marko's escape as a warning? Like "This guy killed your uncle/husband, so he might be gunning for you two as well?"
I agree that this should have been the way for the symbiote to reach Earth, but since Jameson's son had nothing to do with it, all you really can look at it is it being the good ol' Parker luck that the symbiote landed near him.

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Old 02-22-2013, 04:57 PM   #388
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

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Originally Posted by Anno_Domini View Post
That is Alfred's fault?
As much as Harry becoming an alcoholic obsessive Goblin is Bernard's fault.

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That Bruce didn't move on because he believed Rachel was his only shot of a life?
Absolutely. Alfred denied Bruce a truth that may well have helped him accept reality and move on. Instead of losing 8 years of his life on a lie.

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Bruce only had a fantasy of moving on with someone that backed out of anything with him.
And Harry had the fantasy that his father was a noble man who was murdered. What's your point?

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It's not Alfred's fault because he wanted to keep something a secret to only protect
Protect from what? Emotional pain? What do you call 8 years of thinking your only shot at a normal life is dead?

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Harry's butler was keeping a secret that only made things worse that he finally revealed, as I said, when half of Harry's face was blown off.
What's the difference? Lets look at the facts:

1. Alfred kept a secret from Bruce to spare him emotional pain. Bernard kept a secret from Harry to spare him the pain and shame of knowing his father was a murdering psychopath.

2. As a result of said secrets, Bruce thought his only chance for a normal life had died and he never tried to find happiness for 8 years. Harry thought his father was a noble man who was murdered and he tried to avenge him.

3. Alfred and Bernard revealed the truth after the damage was done. 8 years of Bruce's life wasted on a lie. Harry with half his face scarred.

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Let alone, Wayne was at least going on with life in other ways, to which he ****ed up himself in the end(the clean energy project).
And Harry tried to do the fusion project by funding Octavius.

What's your point?

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Old 02-22-2013, 05:04 PM   #389
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

The whole thing about the Osborn butler really did come out of nowhere, but I still liked it. I wish the character was developed more.

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Old 02-22-2013, 06:35 PM   #390
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

I kinda find it weird because Bernard wasn't a regular on the films and then suddenly he was given this important plot point to tell Harry(and the audience). I don't even remember if he was in the first one and in part 2 he had 1 line. That would be like Peter finding out the person who really killed his uncle was the lady who screamed,"Go,Spidey,Go!" from part 2. Such a huge moment given to a bit player.

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Old 02-22-2013, 07:40 PM   #391
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

I read somewhere the butler was originally a figment of Harry's imagination; his conscience or something like that. It would make that scene so much better.

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Old 02-22-2013, 08:30 PM   #392
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

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Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
As much as Harry becoming an alcoholic obsessive Goblin is Bernard's fault.
That's not even true at all. Bruce still had a life, and even if you don't want to call it a life with having your main focus being in a business mindset, Wayne Enterprises has been a major part of his live ever since he returned to Gotham anyways. With Harry, he stopped caring about literally everything once someone he hires effs up a science project(Otto). He didn't even mess up OsCorp himself or lose all of its money and he still had his main focus on killing someone. And you're saying being obsessive with killing someone is the same as not moving on with a girlfriend? Lol.

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Absolutely. Alfred denied Bruce a truth that may well have helped him accept reality and move on. Instead of losing 8 years of his life on a lie.
May is the key word. May is also just an assumption from you and I, but Alfred saw it as protecting someone while also trying to still get Bruce to go out and date while pushing the idea of Miranda being lovely or even Selina even when she's a thief. Hell, he even brought up a chimpanzee.

Quote:
And Harry had the fantasy that his father was a noble man who was murdered. What's your point?
My point is that Bruce was acting like a child who believed Santa was real by thinking he could move on with someone that wasn't truly and really interested in him anymore and that is not Alfred's fault and far less worse than a butler who didn't tell Harry that his father was a murdering psychopath.

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Protect from what? Emotional pain? What do you call 8 years of thinking your only shot at a normal life is dead?
Of course emotional pain. Alfred, for whatever reason, didn't want Bruce to believe that the person he loved did not return the favor.

Quote:
What's the difference? Lets look at the facts:

1. Alfred kept a secret from Bruce to spare him emotional pain. Bernard kept a secret from Harry to spare him the pain and shame of knowing his father was a murdering psychopath.
You really don't see the difference in that? Hiding a secret of a murderer and hiding the secret of false feelings.

Quote:
2. As a result of said secrets, Bruce thought his only chance for a normal life had died and he never tried to find happiness for 8 years. Harry thought his father was a noble man who was murdered and he tried to avenge him.
Bruce believing he lost his only chance of love is downright ludicrous. Bruce just simply didn't try to move on while Alfred and Lucius pushed him to move on. And again you think this is the same as believing his father is innocent and trying to kill the man who was actually in the right. C'mon Joker, I would think you would have more sense with this topic.

Quote:
3. Alfred and Bernard revealed the truth after the damage was done. 8 years of Bruce's life wasted on a lie. Harry with half his face scarred.
No damage was really done with Bruce at all. He returned as Batman and Alfred saw telling the truth would make Bruce retire the cape and cowl again. Harry's butler all of a sudden appeared to tell Harry after his face was blown off and after he tried to kill Peter and even ruined his relationship with MJ. AGAIN, I ask...how in the heck do you think it's the same thing?

Quote:
And Harry tried to do the fusion project by funding Octavius.

What's your point?
And what's your point? He didn't ruin OsCorp at any means by funding Octavius either. A few board members saying Harry messed up that experiment is nothing compared to Wayne Enterprises losing all of its money.

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I kinda find it weird because Bernard wasn't a regular on the films and then suddenly he was given this important plot point to tell Harry(and the audience). I don't even remember if he was in the first one and in part 2 he had 1 line. That would be like Peter finding out the person who really killed his uncle was the lady who screamed,"Go,Spidey,Go!" from part 2. Such a huge moment given to a bit player.
Yah...that whole Bernard crap is just that...crap. Sadly, I really thought better of Raimi than that.

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Old 02-22-2013, 09:45 PM   #393
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

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That's not even true at all. Bruce still had a life, and even if you don't want to call it a life with having your main focus being in a business mindset, Wayne Enterprises has been a major part of his live ever since he returned to Gotham anyways. With Harry, he stopped caring about literally everything once someone he hires effs up a science project(Otto).
The two situations are EXACTLY the same. Wayne Enterprises didn't go bankrupt when Bruce ended the energy project. It just stopped turning out a profit. Whereas Harry did lose everything because he said he was ruined after Octavius' demonstration went awry.

Harry still had as much of a chance at life as Bruce had. Look at the life Harry had when he had amnesia in SM-3. He was happy and carefree. A whole new person.

How is his situation any different to Bruce's? They both could have had a normal life but they both made choices based on false notions. Nobody forced either of them to go down the paths they did. But the fact is they did because both were basing their choices on a lie, and both Alfred and Bernard had the ability and the obligation to tell them the truth, but they didn't.

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He didn't even mess up OsCorp himself or lose all of its money and he still had his main focus on killing someone.
Neither did Bruce. Otherwise he wouldn't have a company to walk back to, or a fortune to lose when Bane did him over at the stock market.

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And you're saying being obsessive with killing someone is the same as not moving on with a girlfriend?
Yes I am. As I have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, the results were the exact same.

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May is the key word. May is also just an assumption from you and I, but Alfred saw it as protecting someone while also trying to still get Bruce to go out and date while pushing the idea of Miranda being lovely or even Selina even when she's a thief. Hell, he even brought up a chimpanzee.
EIGHT years later. After letting Bruce wallow in this pitiful depression based on a lie for 8 years, and you think Alfred protecting Bruce from emotional pain is for the best when he's spent 8 years wallowing in emotional pain.

LOL indeed.

Quote:
My point is that Bruce was acting like a child who believed Santa was real by thinking he could move on with someone that wasn't truly and really interested in him anymore and that is not Alfred's fault and far less worse than a butler who didn't tell Harry that his father was a murdering psychopath.
Baloney! How was Bruce acting like a child? Rachel told him that she meant what she said that she would wait for him when he was done being Batman. That was the last conversation we saw them have before she died.

Her letter explained that she meant that, but now she's sure he won't stop being Batman and that's why she was moving on with Dent. So how the hell do you equate that to him behaving like a child who believes in Santa? He was basing his emotions on what he was told. Rachel's letter explained to him how Rachel's feelings had changed, but Alfred denied him those facts. In fact Alfred stole the truth from him by burning a letter that Rachel had wanted Bruce to read.

At least in Harry's situation he made up his own mind based on something he saw himself. Nothing to do with Bernard. Bernard just never corrected him on it by telling him the truth.

Quote:
Of course emotional pain. Alfred, for whatever reason, didn't want Bruce to believe that the person he loved did not return the favor.
So the better alternative was to sit back and watch him wallow in the misery of losing her because he thought she died unable to move on without him for 8 long years.

Brilliant alternative that just telling him the truth and letting him deal with it.

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You really don't see the difference in that? Hiding a secret of a murderer and hiding the secret of false feelings.
No I don't see the difference since both secrets had devastating effects on the people who were kept in the dark.

Since you put it across like that, Bernard sounds more justified to keep a secret as devastating as finding out your father was a murderer than just telling someone that your would be girlfriend had moved on doesn't it?

Quote:
Bruce believing he lost his only chance of love is downright ludicrous. Bruce just simply didn't try to move on while Alfred and Lucius pushed him to move on. And again you think this is the same as believing his father is innocent and trying to kill the man who was actually in the right. C'mon Joker, I would think you would have more sense with this topic.
Yes, it's the same thing because the results of the deceptions were the same. That's what you're not getting. It's how the lie affected the persons involved. It badly affected each one. Did more harm than good. Hence why the onus was on Alfred and Bernard to tell them truth as soon as they saw this.

What's downright ludicrous is that Alfred waited 8 sodding years before telling him. Bernard at least wasn't that slow in telling the truth. Bernard's secret was FAR heavier than Alfred's. Meaning Alfred telling Bruce was not half as big a deal as telling someone their dad was a psycho serial killer.

Alfred has less of an excuse to keep it than Bernard did.

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No damage was really done with Bruce at all.
LOL yeah apart from losing 8 years of your life to a lie.

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He returned as Batman and Alfred saw telling the truth would make Bruce retire the cape and cowl again.
No he didn't. He thought leaving him would do that. "Leaving is all I have to make you understand".

He only told the truth about Rachel because Bruce brought her up and Alfred knew he had nothing to lose since he was leaving anyway.

Quote:
Harry's butler all of a sudden appeared to tell Harry after his face was blown off and after he tried to kill Peter and even ruined his relationship with MJ. AGAIN, I ask...how in the heck do you think it's the same thing?
Because plastic surgery could easily repair Harry's facial scars. They were not that extensive at all. You're so dramatic with your "face blown off" description. He was hardly Two Face:




Second, his relationship with neither Peter or MJ was ruined. "I loved your father Harry, as your friends love you". Whereas Bruce lost 8 years of his life to a lie. Nothing can get that time back. Harry lost nothing. Even in the 2 year gap between Spider-Man and Spider-Man 2 there's no indication Harry has been wasting his life away on his hatred of Spider-Man. He's head of special projects at Oscorp, he has been attending MJ's play etc.

Quote:
And what's your point? He didn't ruin OsCorp at any means by funding Octavius either. A few board members saying Harry messed up that experiment is nothing compared to Wayne Enterprises losing all of its money.
Wayne Enterprises did NOT lose all of it's money. If it did then why would Bane need to attack Bruce through the stock exchange? He'd have sod all to take from him. Bruce wouldn't have had a company to go back to in the first place if all of his money was gone. The problem was he lost a lot of his money by moth balling the energy project and as a result the company was not turning out a profit. It wasn't bankrupt. That's the difference.

Whereas with Harry, he said after Octavius' experiment went awry: "I'm ruined. I have nothing left except Spider-Man".

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Old 02-23-2013, 12:49 PM   #394
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The two situations are EXACTLY the same. Wayne Enterprises didn't go bankrupt when Bruce ended the energy project. It just stopped turning out a profit. Whereas Harry did lose everything because he said he was ruined after Octavius' demonstration went awry.

Harry still had as much of a chance at life as Bruce had. Look at the life Harry had when he had amnesia in SM-3. He was happy and carefree. A whole new person.

How is his situation any different to Bruce's? They both could have had a normal life but they both made choices based on false notions. Nobody forced either of them to go down the paths they did. But the fact is they did because both were basing their choices on a lie, and both Alfred and Bernard had the ability and the obligation to tell them the truth, but they didn't.
You're looking at the details of the two things, not the bigger picture of the butler keeping the secret of a man being a killer to a butler keeping a secret of feelings that weren't returned. It's easy to say they're the same when you keep bringing up the reasons outside of the lies such as the whole idea of the clean energy projects or the business falling apart because of them, lol.

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Neither did Bruce. Otherwise he wouldn't have a company to walk back to, or a fortune to lose when Bane did him over at the stock market.
Wait...so you think Bruce's money all belonged to Wayne Enterprises or what? Just can't look past that what Bane did was make BRUCE broke, thus not even belonging as a board member as Daggett even said?

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Yes I am. As I have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, the results were the exact same.
Wow Joker, I actually feel sorry if you find them the same.

Keeping a secret that a man is a killer = keeping a secret of unwanted feelings.

I guess you could see that a lot of things can be similar, lol.

Quote:
EIGHT years later. After letting Bruce wallow in this pitiful depression based on a lie for 8 years, and you think Alfred protecting Bruce from emotional pain is for the best when he's spent 8 years wallowing in emotional pain.

LOL indeed.
Not once did I ever say I AGREE with the idea, but it is what it is and sure a hell of a lot better than keeping up a lie that someone's father is a psychopath. Only I know the reason why Alfred believed he was protecting Bruce. Bad call on his behalf, but nothing like keeping a secret of someone who killed people while the son is trying to kill the person who was only doing the right thing in stopping said killer, lol.

Quote:
Baloney! How was Bruce acting like a child? Rachel told him that she meant what she said that she would wait for him when he was done being Batman. That was the last conversation we saw them have before she died.

Her letter explained that she meant that, but now she's sure he won't stop being Batman and that's why she was moving on with Dent. So how the hell do you equate that to him behaving like a child who believes in Santa? He was basing his emotions on what he was told. Rachel's letter explained to him how Rachel's feelings had changed, but Alfred denied him those facts. In fact Alfred stole the truth from him by burning a letter that Rachel had wanted Bruce to read.

At least in Harry's situation he made up his own mind based on something he saw himself. Nothing to do with Bernard. Bernard just never corrected him on it by telling him the truth.
He had an idea that Rachel was keeping her word...the same word she "meant" at the end of Batman Begins but she still moved on and found Harvey Dent. That should've been a first sign that Bruce should have moved on as well, but he didn't. He had a childhood fantasy and that's all it was: a childhood fantasy. Perhaps you think those fantasies can happen, but you'd be in the same boat as Bruce in not being a realist.

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So the better alternative was to sit back and watch him wallow in the misery of losing her because he thought she died unable to move on without him for 8 long years.

Brilliant alternative that just telling him the truth and letting him deal with it.
To Alfred's view, yes, it was the better way as Bruce was trying so desperately to find a new face for Gotham during TDK's events and it was really all for nothing as the person Bruce would have moved on with didn't want to move on with him. Letting Bruce know that the idea was just some fantasy or a dream that was never going to happen would have killed Bruce and it still did eight years later when Alfred finally told him.

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No I don't see the difference since both secrets had devastating effects on the people who were kept in the dark.

Since you put it across like that, Bernard sounds more justified to keep a secret as devastating as finding out your father was a murderer than just telling someone that your would be girlfriend had moved on doesn't it?
A killer = someone who didn't love back. It's the same thing....lol.

Bernard is NO way more in the right at all simply because he saw what Harry has been doing for two and a half years; Bruce didn't endanger anyone but himself at least.

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Yes, it's the same thing because the results of the deceptions were the same. That's what you're not getting. It's how the lie affected the persons involved. It badly affected each one. Did more harm than good. Hence why the onus was on Alfred and Bernard to tell them truth as soon as they saw this.

What's downright ludicrous is that Alfred waited 8 sodding years before telling him. Bernard at least wasn't that slow in telling the truth. Bernard's secret was FAR heavier than Alfred's. Meaning Alfred telling Bruce was not half as big a deal as telling someone their dad was a psycho serial killer.

Alfred has less of an excuse to keep it than Bernard did.
Not repeating myself, but I can still laugh at the fact that you still think it's the same, lol.

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LOL yeah apart from losing 8 years of your life to a lie.
Still beats two and a half years of trusting a lie and trying to kill the man who was in the right as well as taking the Goblin serum

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No he didn't. He thought leaving him would do that. "Leaving is all I have to make you understand".

He only told the truth about Rachel because Bruce brought her up and Alfred knew he had nothing to lose since he was leaving anyway.
Of course, leaving him and telling Bruce the truth was the combo to Alfred's final attempt.

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Because plastic surgery could easily repair Harry's facial scars. They were not that extensive at all. You're so dramatic with your "face blown off" description. He was hardly Two Face:

You just totally looked past the idea of Harry's face at that moment is after it healing itself. You must be kidding yourself if you believed his face looked exactly like that once that bomb explodes.

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Second, his relationship with neither Peter or MJ was ruined. "I loved your father Harry, as your friends love you". Whereas Bruce lost 8 years of his life to a lie. Nothing can get that time back. Harry lost nothing. Even in the 2 year gap between Spider-Man and Spider-Man 2 there's no indication Harry has been wasting his life away on his hatred of Spider-Man. He's head of special projects at Oscorp, he has been attending MJ's play etc.
You're also looking at parts after something as happened, such as what is going on with Sandman and Venom. Beforehand, he ruined the relationship of Peter and MJ by going after Peter's "heart" without trying to kill him again.

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Wayne Enterprises did NOT lose all of it's money. If it did then why would Bane need to attack Bruce through the stock exchange? He'd have sod all to take from him. Bruce wouldn't have had a company to go back to in the first place if all of his money was gone. The problem was he lost a lot of his money by moth balling the energy project and as a result the company was not turning out a profit. It wasn't bankrupt. That's the difference.
Wayne Enterprises lost MOST of its money. To think otherwise would then beg the question, how the hell did an orphanage stop getting funding for two whole years?

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Whereas with Harry, he said after Octavius' experiment went awry: "I'm ruined. I have nothing left except Spider-Man".
So you take one quick of the draw sentence of one film without anything that explains the money issues of another company in another film, interesting.


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Old 02-23-2013, 02:21 PM   #395
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Dry Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

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Originally Posted by Anno_Domini View Post
You're looking at the details of the two things
The details are what make up the bigger picture.

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not the bigger picture of the butler keeping the secret of a man being a killer to a butler keeping a secret of feelings that weren't returned. It's easy to say they're the same when you keep bringing up the reasons outside of the lies such as the whole idea of the clean energy projects or the business falling apart because of them, lol.
You keep saying there's a bigger picture and you never clarify why Norman being a killer and Rachel's rejection of being with Bruce is somehow radically different since the truth of each scenario both involves people who are dead, the people being lied to about each one make bad decisions that have bad repercussions on their life.

So where is this bigger picture? The effect and the cause is the same.

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Wait...so you think Bruce's money all belonged to Wayne Enterprises or what?
If Bruce Wayne is broke, then he has no company does he? Otherwise what was Wayne Enterprises running on? Love lol?

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Just can't look past that what Bane did was make BRUCE broke, thus not even belonging as a board member as Daggett even said?
Tell me, Anno, who was the owner of Wayne Enterprises? Did you miss the ending of Batman Begins?

Earle: "What makes you think you can decide who's running Wayne Enterprises?"
Bruce: "The fact that I'm the owner"

Guess you missed that scene.

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Wow Joker, I actually feel sorry if you find them the same.
Your patronizing sympathy is touching.

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Keeping a secret that a man is a killer = keeping a secret of unwanted feelings.
Can you read? I said the RESULTS of the lies were the same.

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]Not once did I ever say I AGREE with the idea, but it is what it is and sure a hell of a lot better than keeping up a lie that someone's father is a psychopath.
Was a psychopath. Norman was dead. Harry did not become obsessed with this until after he lost everything with the Octavius fusion project, and then he started to become a boozer and obsessed with finding Spider-Man.

"Your father only obsessed over his work".

You want to compare that to 8 years of denying yourself a normal life with someone else because your butler burned the letter that your dead friend wanted you to read?

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Only I know the reason why Alfred believed he was protecting Bruce. Bad call on his behalf, but nothing like keeping a secret of someone who killed people while the son is trying to kill the person who was only doing the right thing in stopping said killer
Bernard: "I know you're trying to defend your father's honor"

Bernard did it for the exact same reason. He didn't want Harry to know what his father had become. Same reason why Norman's dying wish was for Peter not to tell Harry the truth about what he did either.

At least Bernard didn't allow Harry to waste 8 years of his life on it.

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He had an idea that Rachel was keeping her word...the same word she "meant" at the end of Batman Begins but she still moved on and found Harvey Dent.
Because someone is dating someone else doesn't mean it's serious or that they stopped loving you. Hence why he ASKED her if she had meant what she said that when he stopped being Batman they could be together and she said yes. No different from Peter pursuing MJ when she was engaged to John Jameson. He knew she still loved him.

This was not an "idea" Bruce had. It was cold hard confirmation he got from Rachel.

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Perhaps you think those fantasies can happen, but you'd be in the same boat as Bruce in not being a realist.
Will you stop with your patronizing BS. Between your "I feel sorry for you" remarks and now your "You're not being a realist like Bruce" bull, you're obviously taking this too seriously by making it personal. I know you can't stand to hear criticisms about TDKR, but making pathetic attempts to insult me isn't going to make them go away. Just get you another healthy stint on probation if you keep them up.

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To Alfred's view, yes, it was the better way as Bruce was trying so desperately to find a new face for Gotham during TDK's events and it was really all for nothing as the person Bruce would have moved on with didn't want to move on with him. Letting Bruce know that the idea was just some fantasy or a dream that was never going to happen would have killed Bruce and it still did eight years later when Alfred finally told him.
Wrong on all counts. Bruce was not trying to find a new face in TDK's events just so he could be with Rachel. He saw a better hero with a face in Harvey. On who can inspire Gotham better than a masked vigilante ever could. The only reason he was going to turn himself in as Batman was because Joker was killing people in his name. He couldn't stand any more blood being shed on his behalf.

Since he was intending to end being Batman, he asked Rachel if she meant what she said about being together and she said yes. Hence why he told Alfred she was going to wait for him because she had told him she would.

Alfred not telling him the truth on the spot is understandable since Rachel had just died. But leaving it for 8 years while it caused Bruce to isolate himself from a normal life with someone else was far far FAR worse.

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A killer = someone who didn't love back. It's the same thing.
Once again you choose to either stupidly or deliberately misread what I said. I said the EFFECTS of these lies were both devastating. That's why I don't see a difference since they both had very bad effects on Bruce and Harry.

Stop mis-quoting my words.

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Bernard is NO way more in the right at all simply because he saw what Harry has been doing for two and a half years; Bruce didn't endanger anyone but himself at least.
Harry didn't do ANYTHING bad for the two and a half years. Nothing happened until Ock's fusion project fell through. That was 2 years after Norman died.

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Not repeating myself
What a shame. I was almost getting used to you mis quoting plain English.

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but I can still laugh at the fact that you still think it's the same
I wish I could say your posts even had that much entertainment value to raise a laugh. But they're just fountains of incorrect interpretations. No merits in that at all.

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Still beats two and a half years of trusting a lie and trying to kill the man who was in the right as well as taking the Goblin serum
No it doesn't. Because the two and a half years were not spent festering on the lie. When we saw Harry TWO years later in Spider-Man 2, Harry headed up special projects in Oscorp and clearly still retained a healthy relationship with Peter and MJ. Compare that to the state Bruce was in at the beginning to TDKR and you'll see the difference.

It was only after Ock's fusion project went wrong and Harry lost everything that he focused on Spider-Man. Nothing he did was beyond repair. He didn't lose years of life over a truth his butler stole from him.

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Of course, leaving him and telling Bruce the truth was the combo to Alfred's final attempt.
Wrong.

"Leaving is ALL I have left to make you understand you're not Batman any more"

He only told him the truth about Rachel because Bruce was the one who brought her up.

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You just totally looked past the idea of Harry's face at that moment is after it healing itself.
Oh so that's even better. It would eventually be completely healed. So no real damage done at all.

Thanks Anno. I completely forgot about the Goblin healing factor

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You're also looking at parts after something as happened, such as what is going on with Sandman and Venom. Beforehand, he ruined the relationship of Peter and MJ by going after Peter's "heart" without trying to kill him again.
Yeah, and Peter punched MJ in the face and humiliated her with Gwen in her Jazz club. Did that ruin his relationship with her? No.

Forgiveness was a prominent theme of Spider-Man 3.

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Wayne Enterprises lost MOST of its money. To think otherwise would then beg the question, how the hell did an orphanage stop getting funding for two whole years?
"The foundation is funded by the PROFITS of Wayne Enterprises. There have to be some"

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So you take one quick of the draw sentence of one film without anything that explains the money issues of another company in another film, interesting.
What are you talking about? Harry's quote explains his financial situation. When you're ruined that means....you're RUINED. When he says he has nothing left that means....he has NOTHING LEFT!

Before Bane screwed over Bruce at the stock market, name some quotes that say Bruce or Wayne Enterprises were in ruin. They were lacking profits, hence why they couldn't afford to sponsor worthy causes like the orphanage. That's all.

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Old 02-23-2013, 04:51 PM   #396
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

The butler thing never bothered me in a character sense. I'm fine with him being silent and loyal and chosing not to talk until he really needed to. It's more bothersome for the fact that it is totally unnecessary. Harry was set up for his change of heart just fine, but the butler was thrown in to hammer home a pretty obvious conclusion.

Don't see how it compares to Alfred in TDKR tbh. He protected Bruce by keeping a secret, and only spilled out of desperation. You can argue that Alfred shouldn't have sat on the secret for 8 years, but what would you chose to do in that situation? Bruce may have been broken as he was, but it's understandable to think that he's better off thinking the woman he loved - you know - loved him back. Alfred only cracked when it became clear to him that Bruce wouldn't move on; when he saw that Bruce was going to get himself killed; and you can see the weight of that struggle in Caine's fantastic performance. In terms of character actions and motivation, Alfred certainly doesn't stand out in a Batman film that has our guardian of justice quit (TWICE!).


Got to add though... in SM3... the butler scene doesn't bother me too much because any small amount of reasoning can tell you that he wasn't spilling some great secret. Harry must have known what his father was once he discovered the Goblin lab. Harry knew what his father had become and deep down knew that Parker was the better man. He was stubbornly clinging to an image of his father that just wasn't true. When his butler tells Harry that Norman died by his own hand, it was less a shocking reveal of his fate, and more an assertation of the dark path of revenge that Norman lead and Harry found himself following. The significance of the butler's speech was that Harry had friends that cared for him, and the cycle of revenge would destroy them all.


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Old 02-23-2013, 06:23 PM   #397
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Anno, Joker...I think you guys are more or less arguing with brick walls now.

What did everyone think of Mary Jane's story in 3? I like that her dream of becoming an actress fell apart. The singing at the beginning also doesn't bother me as much now.

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Old 02-23-2013, 09:20 PM   #398
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

I found MJ intolerable in Spider-Man 3. Her worst story of the trilogy. She wasn't even acting in Spider-Man 3. She was singing. And she was bad at it, too. Her voice was really weak. I'm not surprised the critics lambasted her for it.

Why she gave up her seemingly successful acting career that she had in SM-2 to sing is beyond me. Why didn't she try and go back to that once the singing fell through? She was saying since SM-1 that she wanted to be an actress.

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Old 02-23-2013, 11:53 PM   #399
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Honestly,MJ in Spider-man 3 still bothers me,but not as much. She was selfish and totally self-absorbed,but everyone gets like that occasionally. She was jealous and upset because she wasn't as good as she thought she was,and because Spider-man(Peter) was getting the fame and attention that she craved. Yes,they are not very good traits to have and they did make her rather unlikeable in the film,but they are also human traits. Couples in relationships have problems. People can get jealous or bitter about the simplest things. Now,that's not excusing how poorly written and unlikeable she was(esp. in contrast to comic book MJ),but it's something I can understand.

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Old 02-24-2013, 01:18 AM   #400
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Agree, I am done with the topic more or less because it's Joker's view against everyone else that has agreed with me lol

And MJ in Spider-Man 3 was just another example of how the script didn't really give the main characters anything that matured them, only devolved them. MJ being with the guy she loves and kisses Harry...just, purely distasteful.

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