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Old 01-11-2013, 10:53 PM   #26
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Spider-Man 2 is in my top five as well. Just love that film, and really hope I had something that follows Harry's dark path with finding his father's Goblin equipment, but S-M 3 sucked

Watched the film just recently and I love the beginning that felt so unconventional in a CBM of not showing Spider-Man, but Peter Parker trying to handle a second job. It's movies like these that makes me appreciate the characters and not the superheroes; big reason why I love TDKR as well. When a film focuses more on the person behind the mask, I end up throwing my money at it.

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Old 01-11-2013, 11:22 PM   #27
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

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but S-M 3 sucked .
No! Bad Anno! Bad! Well it definitely isn't as good as the first two...

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Old 01-11-2013, 11:28 PM   #28
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Top 5 favorite scenes from Spider-Man 2? Mine are;

1. Clock tower/train fight. The greatest fight of any CBM movie.
2. Octavius' demonstration. Goodbye Octavius, hello Doc Ock. Seeing those tentacles come to life was amazing. Ock smashing Spidey into the wall. Rosie's horrific death. Brilliant scene.
3. Bank/building wall battle. How many times have you seen a superhero fight on the side of a wall hundreds of feet in the air? I love that shot of Ock going flying thru the bank window and smashing into a Taxi cab outside.
4. Planetarium Party. Peter's life really goes to hell here. MJ disowns him and gets engaged to John Jameson, and Harry drunkenly slaps him in public.
5. Go get 'em, tiger. One of the few scenes in the trilogy where MJ was likable, and Peter finally caught a break after 2 hours of being trod on.

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Old 01-11-2013, 11:52 PM   #29
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No! Bad Anno! Bad! Well it definitely isn't as good as the first two...
Isn't as good is being nice.

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Top 5 favorite scenes from Spider-Man 2? Mine are;

1. Clock tower/train fight. The greatest fight of any CBM movie.
This one is up there as my favorite moments of the film as well. Such a really great battle.


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Old 01-12-2013, 12:52 AM   #30
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

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As you can see from my signature, Spider-Man 2 is my top Comic Book Movie as well. I see it as the ultimate superhero film; if one did exist, what would his life be like? It explored several genres, like action, adventure, drama, romance, comedy, and even a little bit of horror (classic Sam Raimi).

If I dare say I like it more than The Dark Knight or the Avengers, I get these weird looks, too. It irks me.

However, of course, I am happy with the reboot and loved TASM. Looking forward to the future of this series.
Yeah, as a film, I would say TDK was better overall, and as an action movie, The Avengers is as good as it gets. But with SM2, there is such a great balance of everything. The action is great, the story is great, and the Romance has the "happy" ending that was built on constantly, as opposed to "just happening" like it did in SM1. Not to mention, I have so many great memories of watching the DVD everyday I came home from school and did my homework.

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Spider-Man 2 is in my top five as well. Just love that film, and really hope I had something that follows Harry's dark path with finding his father's Goblin equipment, but S-M 3 sucked

Watched the film just recently and I love the beginning that felt so unconventional in a CBM of not showing Spider-Man, but Peter Parker trying to handle a second job. It's movies like these that makes me appreciate the characters and not the superheroes; big reason why I love TDKR as well. When a film focuses more on the person behind the mask, I end up throwing my money at it.
Exactly. I never liked superheroes because I always thought they were these super cool people who did nothing but save the day, but after seeing the first film, I started to get into Peter's character and realized that there was so much more.

That's also the reason why I became a huge fan of Superman because of Smallville. Even though that show had its up and downs, they essentially spent the majority of the 10 seasons focusing on the character of Clark Kent outside of the costume and flight of Superman, and I regally enjoyed watching the journey that he took to become the hero we all know he becomes.
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Top 5 favorite scenes from Spider-Man 2? Mine are;
Mine would be:

1. The Phone Scene - I don't think there was one moment in the trilogy that did a better job at expressing Peter's frustration with himself and the responsibility he put on himself, and how much it hurt him to not be able to be honest with MJ.
2. The Uncle Ben scene - To add to the last one, it was really touching to see Peter confront his "conscience" as he came to the hard decision of deciding to quit being Spider-Man. Just so much emotion.
3. Train Fight - What more can I say, it's a classic.
4. The Discovery of Peter as Spider-Man/ The conversation on the web - I love the way Peter saves MJ after she sees him unmasked, which served as a way to show that he really was Spider-Man. Ad the conversation they have afterward was also touching, especially when we see Peter swing away while she's hugging John.
5. The end scene/Final Swing - Even though it was a bit chessy to see MJ running away, I love how it ends with her standing behind Peter, and how she basically tells Peter that she will help take some of the burden off of his shoulders. But the best part is the triumphant swing, with the brief glimpse that leaves you wondering whether or not this ending would lead to great things, or if they were both way in over their heads.

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Old 01-12-2013, 11:20 AM   #31
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

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Originally Posted by Anno_Domini
You know, I always wondered how it would've been the first idea of Doc Ock and GG both being in one film.
I've read the script (It was briefly posted online prior to the first movie's release) and it didn't play well at all. It mostly involved Ock trying to kill the Goblin for stealing all of his inventions and Spider-Man constantly winding up in the middle.

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Old 01-12-2013, 11:32 AM   #32
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

On the Internet Movie Script Database, you see a very early draft of the first 2002 Spider-Man movie script. It says, "Written by: Barry Cohen and Ted Newson and James Cameron." Interesting. Doc Ock is in this one.

http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Spider-Man.html

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Old 01-12-2013, 11:43 AM   #33
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

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Originally Posted by Picard Sisko View Post
On the Internet Movie Script Database, you see a very early draft of the first 2002 Spider-Man movie script. It says, "Written by: Barry Cohen and Ted Newson and James Cameron." Interesting. Doc Ock is in this one.

http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Spider-Man.html
Oh boy. Don't get that one started. Ted Newsom frequented Hype when the first film was released and even started a lawsuit against Raimi and crew.
First, the script didn't have Cameron's participation. Newsom explained that for legal reasons, when Cameron became part of the film project, all the previous scripts that he had nothing to do with were credited to him. That script was written before Cameron was hired and has a very Chris Reeves Superman feel to it. Hilariously, Ock is never referred to as Doc Ock or Doctor Octopus in the film and, in fact refers to himself as Spider-Man. And even more strange, the love interest in the film is Liz Allen.

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Old 01-12-2013, 11:44 AM   #34
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Why did Octavious refer to himself as Spider-Man?

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Old 01-12-2013, 11:51 AM   #35
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Because like a spider, he had 8 limbs. It was when he was confronting Liz Allen I believe. She says something to the effect of Spider-Man will save her and Ock says that he's Spider-Man, while making his tentacles look like spider's legs. The only mention of Octopus is when Spidey calls him that and Ock replies "That's Professor Octopus to you!"

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Old 01-12-2013, 11:59 AM   #36
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

That script came a long way, LOL.

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Old 01-12-2013, 12:03 PM   #37
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

It was a truly bad script and would've made a horrible film. I think it was written in the late 80's before anyone felt you could make a serious comic film. There was also a script written where Peter mutated into a monster similar to Jeff Goldblum's The Fly.

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Old 01-12-2013, 12:07 PM   #38
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It was a truly bad script and would've made a horrible film. I think it was written in the late 80's before anyone felt you could make a serious comic film. There was also a script written where Peter mutated into a monster similar to Jeff Goldblum's The Fly.
You mean the whole "Man-Spider" story?


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Old 01-12-2013, 12:13 PM   #39
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

When I watch the ending of Spider-Man 2 I can't help but imagine what the 3rd film could have been. I think Harry should have been a more central villain, and not the "New Goblin" but a legit Green Goblin (or Hobgoblin). Sandman was a misstep. He wasn't as dark a villain as Goblin or Doc Ock and frankly he and Spidey didn't have that hero / villain chemistry in the film. He needed either a different storyline or they should have used a different villain. The Uncle Ben retcon was cheesy and contrived.

The Venom / symbiote storyline should have been saved for a fourth film.

S3 missed out in all the areas that made the first 2 films great. Spidey had no interesting dynamic with his villains. The Pete / MJ breakup was contrived and convoluted and devoid of any real romantic drama. The Pete / Harry relationship was neutered by having Harry suffer memory loss for half the film. The Uncle Ben storyline was cheaply retconned. The film is a misfire all around.

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Old 01-12-2013, 12:17 PM   #40
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I think the film should have had 2 villains, one being Harry, the other being Sandman. The reason why it shouldn't have been ONLY Harry is because we saw a Green Goblin 2 movies prior. I can't imagine how amazing it would have been to get a three-way battle between Spider-Man, Harry, and Sandman. NO TEAM-UPS.

Sandman's story got pushed away once Venom and the whole symbiote story were thrown into the picture. There was so much more to his character that was taken out of the movie, such as him visiting the doctor, trying to spend more time with his daughter (sandcastle scene), etc.

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"No matter how small I am--no matter how hopeless everything seems--I mustn't give up! My size doesn't matter! Even my life doesn't matter! No one can win--every battle, but--no man should fall-- without a struggle!"
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Old 01-12-2013, 12:40 PM   #41
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

I think it says a lot about the state of comic book movies and how much they struggled to try and get as big of an audience as possible. Even though Sony wanted to make six Spider-Man movies in total, I don't think the road to being a big franchise was very easy. Just look at how every other successful comic book movie went in terms of the direction and choice of villain/love interest. Superman went with Luthor in the first, while introducing and simultaneously filming a second part with Zod. Batman 89 went for the Joker right away, and Spider-Man ended up with the Green Goblin and Mary Jane.

I think when you look at something like ASM, which decided to introduce Gwen Stacy instead and had the main villain be the Lizard, I don't think that kind of movie would have even been made 10-15 yeas ago, because the Lizard isn't a big of a draw, and they wouldn't introduce this love interest that you knew would eventually die, especially when sequels weren't fully guaranteed. Nowadays, there is the benefit of introducing lesser known villains and building up to future movies.

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Old 01-12-2013, 12:54 PM   #42
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

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When I watch the ending of Spider-Man 2 I can't help but imagine what the 3rd film could have been. I think Harry should have been a more central villain, and not the "New Goblin" but a legit Green Goblin (or Hobgoblin). Sandman was a misstep. He wasn't as dark a villain as Goblin or Doc Ock and frankly he and Spidey didn't have that hero / villain chemistry in the film. He needed either a different storyline or they should have used a different villain. The Uncle Ben retcon was cheesy and contrived.

The Venom / symbiote storyline should have been saved for a fourth film.

S3 missed out in all the areas that made the first 2 films great. Spidey had no interesting dynamic with his villains. The Pete / MJ breakup was contrived and convoluted and devoid of any real romantic drama. The Pete / Harry relationship was neutered by having Harry suffer memory loss for half the film. The Uncle Ben storyline was cheaply retconned. The film is a misfire all around.
I agree, and one of my biggest criticisms of the trilogy as a whole was how each movie seemed to feel like a different movie with the same actors. Like they were connected on a basic level, but not so much at the same time. I mean, the only things that really mattered were that Uncle Ben died because Peter felt guilty, Peter loved MJ and Harry hated Spider-Man because he thought he killed his father. But it didn't really have the same kind of tie-in that we kinda saw with Batman Begins and TDKR, and I think part of the reason was because it wasn't planned out to be this great trilogy or anything. Each movie sort of stands out as its own in terms of style and writing. I think the gap between the first two films make sense because they are set years apart, but the gap between SM2 and SM3 is still unclear to me whether its been weeks or months apart, even though the actors made it look like it was years apart.

I really liked Thomas Haden Church as Sandman, I think he really looked the part, but the writing was not good. He essentially had no purpose, other than to add to the theme of forgiveness. The retcon was the worse, and was really just unnecessary, even though I know Raimi wanted Peter to have some connection to the villain. As for Venom, I like how they made Eddie the anti-Peter, as opposed to the cartoon version of him that was this big strong guy. But I agree that Venom should have been teased in the church scene, but saved for the next film, which I believe was an idea they toyed with, but couldn't figure out where to cut the film in half and still have a good resolution.

And I don't mind Harry being the New Goblin, but I think they rushed that for no reason. I would have liked to see more of a struggle from the discovery he made at the end of SM2. I wanted to see a more mental struggle between his love for Peter and Norman because there was a great story waiting to happen there. I also hated the "amnesia" thing because that is such a writing cop-out.

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Old 01-12-2013, 01:23 PM   #43
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

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You mean the whole "Man-Spider" story?
Nah, it wasn't a Man-Spider concept, as in Peter transforms accidentally and then finds a cure. It was just that the then producer, Menahem Golan (Of Golan-Globus/Carolco) thought Spidey would work better as a monster story rather than a straight superhero. But Marvel immediately rejected it.

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Old 01-12-2013, 01:25 PM   #44
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Dragon, what are your top 5 favorite scenes in Spider-Man 2?

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Old 01-12-2013, 01:51 PM   #45
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Dragon, what are your top 5 favorite scenes in Spider-Man 2?
Picking 5 scenes is tough, but-

1. All of the Ock/Spidey fights.

I'm lumping them all together for this reason: The great thing about Spidey 2 that makes it stand out above all the comic films for me is that the battles between Spidey and Ock present what every other comic film lacks. Two characters with very unique powers, and those abilities presented at their highest level. As much as I loved for example The Avengers you didn't really see this. It was just brute force against brute force and even ridiculous things like martial arts and guns/arrows against extraterrestrials with advanced science. Realistically the war between the Avengers and the Chitauri should've taken weeks- months. It's over in minutes. But Spidey and Ock's throwdowns were pretty much exactly as they should've been. A tough battle and full, clever display of their powers.

2. Ock's intro/origin.

Established Ock perfectly as both arrogant and tragic. He was a man who paid dearly for his hubris. His wife's death and the collapse of his dreams made you feel for the guy. And he was realistically was built into a criminal. Unfortunately the idea has been repeated too many times since. But Ock was handled very well.

3. Peter's loss of powers.

Although I don't think the resolution was perfect, there was clearly a strong build-up as to why Peter would have a psychological breakdown and loss of his powers.

4. The fire.

I know there was alot of griping that it was a repeat of the first film's fire; but it was unique and important for Peter's character in that it established that Peter's heroism is something in his nature and not merely because he has super powers. I think TASM got Peter's character completely wrong. The fire is an example of why I feel Raimi/Tobey got the Peter character right.

5. The final scene with MJ.

About the only scene except maybe the final scene in Spidey 1 where some sense was made of this relationship. It actually began to give an example of what was otherwise elusive in the series- just why Peter is in love with this girl. The big problem is that MJ went in the totally opposite direction in Spidey 3.

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Old 01-12-2013, 06:56 PM   #46
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

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Picking 5 scenes is tough, but-

1. All of the Ock/Spidey fights.

I'm lumping them all together for this reason: The great thing about Spidey 2 that makes it stand out above all the comic films for me is that the battles between Spidey and Ock present what every other comic film lacks. Two characters with very unique powers, and those abilities presented at their highest level. As much as I loved for example The Avengers you didn't really see this. It was just brute force against brute force and even ridiculous things like martial arts and guns/arrows against extraterrestrials with advanced science. Realistically the war between the Avengers and the Chitauri should've taken weeks- months. It's over in minutes. But Spidey and Ock's throwdowns were pretty much exactly as they should've been. A tough battle and full, clever display of their powers.

2. Ock's intro/origin.

Established Ock perfectly as both arrogant and tragic. He was a man who paid dearly for his hubris. His wife's death and the collapse of his dreams made you feel for the guy. And he was realistically was built into a criminal. Unfortunately the idea has been repeated too many times since. But Ock was handled very well.

3. Peter's loss of powers.

Although I don't think the resolution was perfect, there was clearly a strong build-up as to why Peter would have a psychological breakdown and loss of his powers.

4. The fire.

I know there was alot of griping that it was a repeat of the first film's fire; but it was unique and important for Peter's character in that it established that Peter's heroism is something in his nature and not merely because he has super powers. I think TASM got Peter's character completely wrong. The fire is an example of why I feel Raimi/Tobey got the Peter character right.

5. The final scene with MJ.

About the only scene except maybe the final scene in Spidey 1 where some sense was made of this relationship. It actually began to give an example of what was otherwise elusive in the series- just why Peter is in love with this girl. The big problem is that MJ went in the totally opposite direction in Spidey 3.
Great choices. Hard to disagree with any of them, or the reasoning behind them, especially the Ock/Spidey fights.

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Old 01-12-2013, 07:26 PM   #47
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Spider-Man 2 is just a masterpiece IMO. Favorite scenes:

1. Every battle with Doc Ock
2. Peter losing his powers
3. Every Daily Bugle scene
4. Peter's relationship with Harry
5. Ock's origin/hospital scene (a great nod to Raimi's horror movies)
6. Aunt May's speech in the backyard - "There's a hero in all of us."
7. Mary Jane standing in his doorway, with the Elfman's score "At Long Last Love," followed by the final swing. EPIC.

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Old 01-12-2013, 07:29 PM   #48
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

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Spider-Man 2 is just a masterpiece IMO.
I have to agree. It is one of the all-time greatest superhero films.

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Old 01-12-2013, 07:30 PM   #49
Picard Sisko
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

The first two films show what Raimi can do without studio interference.

"They really gave me a tremendous amount of control on the first two films, actually. But then there were different opinions on the third film and I didn’t really have creative control, so to speak." - Sam Raimi on Spider-Man 3

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"No matter how small I am--no matter how hopeless everything seems--I mustn't give up! My size doesn't matter! Even my life doesn't matter! No one can win--every battle, but--no man should fall-- without a struggle!"
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Old 01-12-2013, 07:30 PM   #50
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Yeah, I too was never a fan of Doc Ock, but I really love how they made him so relatable for Peter. At first, he was looked at as the scientist who was living the dream, by doing the work that he loves with the woman that he loves. And then after the accident, he was so off the case of what could've happened to Peter had he used his power for selfish reasons, and how broken he was with his wife's death. It was just a great use of a villain that didn't necessarily dominate the movie.

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