The SuperHeroHype Forums  

Go Back   The SuperHeroHype Forums > Spider-Man > Spider-Man 1, 2 & 3

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-25-2013, 10:39 AM   #826
Rodrigo90
DafoeISJoker
 
Rodrigo90's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Newcastle, UK
Posts: 19,704
Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

It's one of those things you just have to laugh at for it's absurdity. Lol

It had potential. But the Raimi cheese overrided it. Now that is why I love it

__________________
"A hero is an ordinary individual who finds the strength to persevere and endure in spite of overwhelming obstacles "
Christopher Reeve

I believe in Batfleck
Rodrigo90 is online now  
Old 04-25-2013, 04:31 PM   #827
Dragon
No Way as Way
 
Dragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: New York, NY USA
Posts: 9,989
Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anno_Domini View Post
Okay, let me clarify. He didn't have any additional footage that:

A. Would make for a better film.
B. Wouldn't alter the narrative and make for another incomplete story.

With 2.1 Raimi had footage that enhanced what we already had. It actually made good scenes better. Not the case with 3.

__________________
Kwai Cheng: Old man, how is it that you hear these things?
Master Po: Young man, how is it that you do not?

Kung-Fu, 1972
Dragon is offline  
Old 04-25-2013, 04:46 PM   #828
SpideyVille
Walking out the Desert
 
SpideyVille's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The little part of the Big Apple
Posts: 20,732
Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Ehhhh, I wouldn't say exactly say 2.1 made things better. I can easily see why they cut what they did. Not to mention, there wasn't really anything significant that was added in those "8" minutes that they brag about on the cover. Like I said, what they put in was completely unnecessary and SM2 was the film that least needed an extended version.

Also, I don't understand why there was some extra scenes and shots in the FX version when they aired the movie that wasn't even in 2.1.

__________________
SpideyVille is offline  
Old 04-25-2013, 05:16 PM   #829
Anno_Domini
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Quote:
Originally Posted by Excelsior. View Post
This thread should be re-titled 'I loved Raimi's Spider-man 1 & 2 but not 3' thread.
I'd support this change

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
Okay, let me clarify. He didn't have any additional footage that:

A. Would make for a better film.
B. Wouldn't alter the narrative and make for another incomplete story.

With 2.1 Raimi had footage that enhanced what we already had. It actually made good scenes better. Not the case with 3.
Using the doctor would help Sandman's arc in what Flint Marko has been doing with that money besides just making once sentence of it and making the audience believe him just on that.

Eddie visiting Gwen's house would definitely add a more obsessive nature that he has for her.

Showing the Venom persona during a reflection that Peter see would only help the idea of what the symbiote is doing to him besides just making him more angry.

An extended cut of Harry talking to Norman would help his arc as well.

The Eddie Brock/Flint Marko meeting in the park would add much more development to both characters besides their quick 45 second meet-n-greet in the alley.

Anno_Domini is offline  
Old 04-25-2013, 06:09 PM   #830
DX
YES! YES! YES!
 
DX's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: England
Posts: 21,859
Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

The only scene from 2.1 that I thought should have been in the theatrical cut was the extended Peter/Harry stuff from the Birthday party.

__________________
Avvy by Kane52630

SM1: 8.5/10
SM2: 9.5/10
SM3: 6.5/10
TASM: 4/10
TASM2: lol/10
DX is offline  
Old 04-25-2013, 06:55 PM   #831
Venom75
I'm symbiotic!
 
Venom75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Pittsburgh,Pa.
Posts: 1,754
Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anno_Domini View Post


Eddie visiting Gwen's house would definitely add a more obsessive nature that he has for her.

Showing the Venom persona during a reflection that Peter see would only help the idea of what the symbiote is doing to him besides just making him more angry.

The Eddie Brock/Flint Marko meeting in the park would add much more development to both characters besides their quick 45 second meet-n-greet in the alley.
I agree to those. I think having Gwen "dump" Eddie would've made him even more depressed and angry,which would have helped the audience see just how far he's fallen. I also wished there was a scene in there(that I think was from the novel)where Eddie was at a bar getting drunk and cursing Peter Parker.
And since he was supposed to be Peter's doppleganger,I would've loved a scene where Eddie(after getting fired)goes to back to his dump of an apartment and is kicked out by his foreign landlord,who obviously hates Eddie. That would've not only shown Eddie at his lowest depth,but it also would've shown the difference between Peter's "blessed" life and Eddie's horrible one. That would've given him more "venom" to despise Peter.

All this would've worked...if the movie didn't have so many plotlines and characters.

__________________
-I'm a Freddy Krueger,Spider-man and Venom(the Eddie Brock version) FANATIC!

Official fan of The Raimi Spider-man Trilogy 2002-2007
Venom75 is offline  
Old 04-25-2013, 10:41 PM   #832
Victarion
Cut
 
Victarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,043
Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Don't forget going to Gwen's after he was drunk.

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Trevorrow
But with all this talk of filmmakers “ruining our childhood”, we forget that right now is someone else’s childhood. This is their time.
Victarion is offline  
Old 04-25-2013, 11:57 PM   #833
Dragon
No Way as Way
 
Dragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: New York, NY USA
Posts: 9,989
Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anno_Domini View Post

Using the doctor would help Sandman's arc in what Flint Marko has been doing with that money besides just making once sentence of it and making the audience believe him just on that.
It was unnecessary. We knew what the money was for. And the showing of the lockette in the "birth" scene made it clear that he was doing it all for Penny.

Quote:
Eddie visiting Gwen's house would definitely add a more obsessive nature that he has for her.
And maybe that's just what Raimi wanted to avoid. His take on Eddie was not that he was obsessive, but selfish. He was supposed to be the anti-Peter. Whereas Peter gives of himself, Eddie only takes. Perhaps Raimi didn't want it to appear that Eddie was doing everything for Gwen, but only doing things for his own selfish ends. He wanted Gwen, but she would've been just another trophy to his own perceived greatness.

And in the scene at Gwen's house, the suggestion is that they had a relationship, which the Key to The City scene contradicts. Gwen makes it clear that there's nothing between them, thus no need to break-up with Eddie.

Quote:
Showing the Venom persona during a reflection that Peter see would only help the idea of what the symbiote is doing to him besides just making him more angry.
Again, unnecessary. Peter's problem was not that he might physically turn into a monster- but that he was mentally and emotionally becoming one.

Quote:
An extended cut of Harry talking to Norman would help his arc as well.
It depends on what the dialogue was. I felt that instead of the scene with Bernard, they should've had a final scene with Norman where Harry rejected him. But if they only had more raving on Norman's part, it was better left out IMO.

Quote:
The Eddie Brock/Flint Marko meeting in the park would add much more development to both characters besides their quick 45 second meet-n-greet in the alley.
Also unnecessary. We got it the first time. They both want Spider-Man dead. Having them repeat it in another setting wouldn't have done anything for either character.

Raimi obviously didn't feel any of that would've made for a better film, otherwise he would've included it in the final cut.

__________________
Kwai Cheng: Old man, how is it that you hear these things?
Master Po: Young man, how is it that you do not?

Kung-Fu, 1972
Dragon is offline  
Old 04-26-2013, 01:03 AM   #834
Anno_Domini
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
It was unnecessary. We knew what the money was for. And the showing of the lockette in the "birth" scene made it clear that he was doing it all for Penny.
Seeing the locket does nothing except knowing he's stealing money for Penny, but what exactly is he doing with the money is not given an answer. He's just a caring father trying to steal money for his daughter and then....nothing of an answer is given how he plans on using that money when he's a criminal and his wife would never take the money to treat Penny. Spider-Man 3 needed to answer that one.

Quote:
And maybe that's just what Raimi wanted to avoid. His take on Eddie was not that he was obsessive, but selfish. He was supposed to be the anti-Peter. Whereas Peter gives of himself, Eddie only takes. Perhaps Raimi didn't want it to appear that Eddie was doing everything for Gwen, but only doing things for his own selfish ends. He wanted Gwen, but she would've been just another trophy to his own perceived greatness.

And in the scene at Gwen's house, the suggestion is that they had a relationship, which the Key to The City scene contradicts. Gwen makes it clear that there's nothing between them, thus no need to break-up with Eddie.
But yet Raimi gives little clues that he's obsessed with a girl that he only had one date with, glorifying that little date when Gwen clearly states it was just to get coffee but in Eddie's eyes, he's already planning on proposing to her. That's borderline obsessive right there and yet nothing is really shown of how obsessive Eddie can be. Why even begin to tease such if you're saying Raimi was trying to avoid it?

Quote:
Again, unnecessary. Peter's problem was not that he might physically turn into a monster- but that he was mentally and emotionally becoming one.
It would add an idea of how the symbiote turned Eddie into something way worse than what it was initially doing with Peter.

Quote:
It depends on what the dialogue was. I felt that instead of the scene with Bernard, they should've had a final scene with Norman where Harry rejected him. But if they only had more raving on Norman's part, it was better left out IMO.
Not entirely true. Norman's continued drive of barking orders at Harry would only increase the nature of what has become to Harry's psyche because of the serum.

Quote:
Also unnecessary. We got it the first time. They both want Spider-Man dead. Having them repeat it in another setting wouldn't have done anything for either character.

Raimi obviously didn't feel any of that would've made for a better film, otherwise he would've included it in the final cut.
So you'd rather pick a 45 second scene where Eddie all of a sudden knows something about Penny when Peter does nothing earlier to find out about Flint's daughter or a quick gesture of Flint agreeing to kill Spidey without being threatened as he is in the park with Penny's life?

Anno_Domini is offline  
Old 04-26-2013, 04:54 AM   #835
Dragon
No Way as Way
 
Dragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: New York, NY USA
Posts: 9,989
Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anno_Domini View Post
Seeing the locket does nothing except knowing he's stealing money for Penny, but what exactly is he doing with the money is not given an answer. He's just a caring father trying to steal money for his daughter and then....nothing of an answer is given how he plans on using that money when he's a criminal and his wife would never take the money to treat Penny. Spider-Man 3 needed to answer that one.
In the scene in the apartment Marko says: "I'll get the money to make you well". Pretty self-explanatory. Having him speak to a doctor would only slow down an overly dense story as it is.

Quote:
But yet Raimi gives little clues that he's obsessed with a girl that he only had one date with, glorifying that little date when Gwen clearly states it was just to get coffee but in Eddie's eyes, he's already planning on proposing to her. That's borderline obsessive right there and yet nothing is really shown of how obsessive Eddie can be. Why even begin to tease such if you're saying Raimi was trying to avoid it?
Including the scene at Gwen's house wouldn't have helped either way, since the suggests a relationship that the Key scene says doesn't exist.

Quote:
It would add an idea of how the symbiote turned Eddie into something way worse than what it was initially doing with Peter.
The symbiote didn't turn him into anything. Eddie was already worse. "The symbiote enhances the nature of the host". Pretty clear.

Quote:
Not entirely true. Norman's continued drive of barking orders at Harry would only increase the nature of what has become to Harry's psyche because of the serum.
You don't need to keep showing the same thing repeatedly to get the point across. The very fact that Harry is hallucinating a vision of his father at all says how far gone he is.

Quote:
So you'd rather pick a 45 second scene where Eddie all of a sudden knows something about Penny when Peter does nothing earlier to find out about Flint's daughter or a quick gesture of Flint agreeing to kill Spidey without being threatened as he is in the park with Penny's life?
First of all, we already know Marko wants Spidey dead- because Spidey tried to kill him- that's why he attacks the one that turns out to be Eddie. And when Eddie says Spidey won't let him get money for his daughter- it doesn't matter whether Peter actually knows about the daughter or not. Eddie is seducing Marko by stating how Spidey is the obstacle to saving Penny's life- and thus why he deserves to die.

The scene in the park would slow this down. They wanted to have them going right into action rather than sitting around talking.

Clearly what they needed to make the film better was never shot, since the script was rushed and didn't include these things. Marko was meant to be a second banana to Vulture, not the main villain. And Eddie wasn't supposed to be there at all.

__________________
Kwai Cheng: Old man, how is it that you hear these things?
Master Po: Young man, how is it that you do not?

Kung-Fu, 1972

Last edited by Dragon; 04-26-2013 at 05:01 AM.
Dragon is offline  
Old 04-26-2013, 12:04 PM   #836
Anno_Domini
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
In the scene in the apartment Marko says: "I'll get the money to make you well". Pretty self-explanatory. Having him speak to a doctor would only slow down an overly dense story as it is.
Actually it's not self-explanatory because Marko's wife tells him to leave, thus it's "pretty self-explanatory" that she would want nothing from him, so how is a felon supposed to help Penny out then? Sure, one could think of it, but it's best to see how exactly a convict is going to help after stealing money.

Quote:
Including the scene at Gwen's house wouldn't have helped either way, since the suggests a relationship that the Key scene says doesn't exist.
So the scene could've been edited differently. Awesome. A scene with Eddie stalking Gwen would've still been great, imo.

Quote:
The symbiote didn't turn him into anything. Eddie was already worse. "The symbiote enhances the nature of the host". Pretty clear.
And Peter was not becoming worse because of the symbiote? The reflection showed what could become of Peter, much like Spider-Man:TAS.

Quote:
You don't need to keep showing the same thing repeatedly to get the point across. The very fact that Harry is hallucinating a vision of his father at all says how far gone he is.
Actually you do when you only have one or two scenes of it, one before the amnesia and one after....having more in the film besides before and after would have been solid instead of Raimi just trying to remind the audience that Norman is still around. More frequency would've been helpful.

Quote:
First of all, we already know Marko wants Spidey dead- because Spidey tried to kill him- that's why he attacks the one that turns out to be Eddie. And when Eddie says Spidey won't let him get money for his daughter- it doesn't matter whether Peter actually knows about the daughter or not. Eddie is seducing Marko by stating how Spidey is the obstacle to saving Penny's life- and thus why he deserves to die.
And bringing up a daughter that Peter has no idea of was the silliest way to bring back that urge of Flint wanting to kill Spidey.

Quote:
The scene in the park would slow this down. They wanted to have them going right into action rather than sitting around talking.
Except that the alley sit was far more boring than what could have been and actually slowed things down because in hindsight it makes you wonder just how the heck Eddie knows about Penny all of a sudden.

And now...the park scene would have been perfect. Slow things down? Not by a long shot when the film was already getting a slower pace anyways with Peter trying to get rid of the symbiote, then May's speech to him. The film was already starting to slow its pace, getting ready for the finale.

Quote:
Clearly what they needed to make the film better was never shot, since the script was rushed and didn't include these things. Marko was meant to be a second banana to Vulture, not the main villain. And Eddie wasn't supposed to be there at all.
Most of what's in the script is in the novelization, and it was pretty dang perfect except for the retcon which I will always have a problem with, but I could look past it if the movie was better.


Last edited by Anno_Domini; 04-26-2013 at 12:08 PM.
Anno_Domini is offline  
Old 04-26-2013, 01:34 PM   #837
Dragon
No Way as Way
 
Dragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: New York, NY USA
Posts: 9,989
Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anno_Domini View Post
Actually it's not self-explanatory because Marko's wife tells him to leave, thus it's "pretty self-explanatory" that she would want nothing from him, so how is a felon supposed to help Penny out then? Sure, one could think of it, but it's best to see how exactly a convict is going to help after stealing money.
The wife tells him to get out because she doesn't want him there and doesn't want Penny involved in his crimes. Showing the scene with the doctor would not have answered the question of if Mrs. Marko would accept his help.

Quote:
So the scene could've been edited differently. Awesome. A scene with Eddie stalking Gwen would've still been great, imo.
If the dialogue was about them dating and breaking up, then there's no edit that would've made it balance out with the Key scene.

Quote:
And Peter was not becoming worse because of the symbiote? The reflection showed what could become of Peter, much like Spider-Man:TAS.
No, Peter was becoming worse because of his rage and desire for revenge. "It's like a poison". The symbiote was merely feeding on that. And Peter should not have changed his behavior because of a goofy reflection in a mirror- but because he realized what he was doing was wrong.

Quote:
Actually you do when you only have one or two scenes of it, one before the amnesia and one after....having more in the film besides before and after would have been solid instead of Raimi just trying to remind the audience that Norman is still around. More frequency would've been helpful.
It isn't how many scenes, but what's said in each scene that matters. Adding another scene would have done nothing to enhance the message that Harry was going nuts. As soon as you have him looking in the mirror and seeing his deceased father speaking to him, the point is made. Again, if they had a scene where Harry was able to force the image of Norman away, showing that he was free of Norman, that would've helped. But they didn't have such a scene.

Quote:
And bringing up a daughter that Peter has no idea of was the silliest way to bring back that urge of Flint wanting to kill Spidey.
Peter doesn't need to know about her. Marko knows that
Spider-Man-
A. Tried to kill him, and will likely try again.
B. Will continue to prevent him from getting the money to save his daughter.

That's all Marko needs to know in order to be motivated to kill Spider-Man.

Quote:
Except that the alley sit was far more boring than what could have been and actually slowed things down because in hindsight it makes you wonder just how the heck Eddie knows about Penny all of a sudden.
Really? You mean that black alien he's got wrapped around his body isn't enough to suggest that there's some psychic activity going on? Especially since it can clearly read minds and emotions of its host? And fine- you thought the alley scene was boring. Maybe Raimi thought the park scene was more boring.

Quote:
And now...the park scene would have been perfect. Slow things down? Not by a long shot when the film was already getting a slower pace anyways with Peter trying to get rid of the symbiote, then May's speech to him. The film was already starting to slow its pace, getting ready for the finale.
It was at a slow pace and you want to slow it down further..

Quote:
Most of what's in the script is in the novelization, and it was pretty dang perfect except for the retcon which I will always have a problem with, but I could look past it if the movie was better.
The novelization is only based on the script. The writer of the novel then adds additional material, elaborating and extending as he pleases. Just because certain details were in the novel doesn't mean it was shot during production.

In the Spidey 2 novel there's a battle sequence with a guy in a robo-suit. That obviously wasn't shot.

__________________
Kwai Cheng: Old man, how is it that you hear these things?
Master Po: Young man, how is it that you do not?

Kung-Fu, 1972
Dragon is offline  
Old 04-26-2013, 02:34 PM   #838
Victarion
Cut
 
Victarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,043
Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

We have some shots that appeared in the novel, such as Sandman threatening the doctor. I don't recall of Captain Stacy confronting Eddie made it; that Sandman as the sandcastle was evidently shot, as there was a pic of Eddie and Marko meeting in the park.

I felt SM3 was twiddling its thumbs in Act II. It had plenty of room for this stuff that would seem to slow the film down.

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Trevorrow
But with all this talk of filmmakers “ruining our childhood”, we forget that right now is someone else’s childhood. This is their time.
Victarion is offline  
Old 04-26-2013, 04:03 PM   #839
Anno_Domini
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
The wife tells him to get out because she doesn't want him there and doesn't want Penny involved in his crimes. Showing the scene with the doctor would not have answered the question of if Mrs. Marko would accept his help.
Flint was going to do whatever he can to help his daughter and at least having some doctor helping Flint out, it would make much more sense than what appears to be Marko stealing money and doing nothing with it. Seriously, we have no idea what he does with the money and what his plan is of curing Penny. And that's fine with you?

Quote:
If the dialogue was about them dating and breaking up, then there's no edit that would've made it balance out with the Key scene.
Actually, it could have been edited out enough to balance out with the mention of them only having one date beforehand.

Quote:
No, Peter was becoming worse because of his rage and desire for revenge. "It's like a poison". The symbiote was merely feeding on that. And Peter should not have changed his behavior because of a goofy reflection in a mirror- but because he realized what he was doing was wrong.
I'm not saying the symbiote wasn't feeding on his rage and anger, but it would have slowly changed the physical look of Spider-Man while it was on him, which would have been this in the long run



Quote:
It isn't how many scenes, but what's said in each scene that matters. Adding another scene would have done nothing to enhance the message that Harry was going nuts. As soon as you have him looking in the mirror and seeing his deceased father speaking to him, the point is made. Again, if they had a scene where Harry was able to force the image of Norman away, showing that he was free of Norman, that would've helped. But they didn't have such a scene.
It is how many scenes when it builds up Harry's arc of finally disowning his father in the end to see how Norman continues to bark orders at his son.

Quote:
Peter doesn't need to know about her. Marko knows that
Spider-Man-
A. Tried to kill him, and will likely try again.
B. Will continue to prevent him from getting the money to save his daughter.

That's all Marko needs to know in order to be motivated to kill Spider-Man.
Peter does need to know about Penny when Eddie knows about it because of the symbiote

Quote:
Really? You mean that black alien he's got wrapped around his body isn't enough to suggest that there's some psychic activity going on? Especially since it can clearly read minds and emotions of its host? And fine- you thought the alley scene was boring. Maybe Raimi thought the park scene was more boring.
Psychic activity? When has it ever shown the symbiote to know something that one of its hosts didn't?

Quote:
It was at a slow pace and you want to slow it down further..
And yet it wouldn't have slowed the pace any further, so there's that...

Quote:
The novelization is only based on the script. The writer of the novel then adds additional material, elaborating and extending as he pleases. Just because certain details were in the novel doesn't mean it was shot during production.

In the Spidey 2 novel there's a battle sequence with a guy in a robo-suit. That obviously wasn't shot.
And yet most of what's in the novelization is shot...it's not like the Spider-Man 2 where there are robots

Look over that link I showed you, read the novelization...most of what's in the novelization is in the script and was filmed by Raimi.

Anno_Domini is offline  
Old 04-26-2013, 05:48 PM   #840
henzINNIT
Side-Kick
 
henzINNIT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,852
Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

All the deleted scenes are flooding back and it's bumming me out

henzINNIT is offline  
Old 04-26-2013, 08:55 PM   #841
Dragon
No Way as Way
 
Dragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: New York, NY USA
Posts: 9,989
Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anno_Domini View Post
Flint was going to do whatever he can to help his daughter and at least having some doctor helping Flint out, it would make much more sense than what appears to be Marko stealing money and doing nothing with it. Seriously, we have no idea what he does with the money and what his plan is of curing Penny. And that's fine with you?
I'm absolutely fine with it, since it was incredibly obvious to me from the scene in the apartment what Marko intended to do with the money. Add to that that Marko reforms himself in the birth scene only after looking at the picture of Penny and being determined to help her and it's totally 'nuff said.

Not to mention that the doctor scene is not only superfluous, but brings up new problems. A doctor can't knowingly accept stolen money. And there's no freakin' way a doctor competent enough to help Penny would buy that Marko just found it somewhere.

Another point you're missing is that Marko isn't successful in his robberies. Spider-Man keeps stopping him from getting away with the money- thus why Marko feels he has to kill him. So the question of what he's doing with the money is moot.

Quote:
Actually, it could have been edited out enough to balance out with the mention of them only having one date beforehand.
We don't know the dialogue from the scene other than a general description, so we have no idea if it could have been edited. It was pretty clear to me that Eddie's relationship with Gwen wasn't singularly important (Thus why they changed Gwen being kidnapped for MJ). It was just another example of Eddie's selfishness and poor perception.

Quote:
I'm not saying the symbiote wasn't feeding on his rage and anger, but it would have slowly changed the physical look of Spider-Man while it was on him, which would have been this in the long run
The symbiote doesn't change the host's appearance. The symbiote's appearance changes based on the mental state of the host. I believe that Raimi didn't feel it was necessary to scare Peter straight by the reflection. His hitting MJ and nearly killing Harry was enough for Peter to grasp that he was going in a bad direction.

Further, Raimi and co. probably also didn't want to spoil Venom's first appearance by showing the Venom-like image of Peter.

Quote:
It is how many scenes when it builds up Harry's arc of finally disowning his father in the end to see how Norman continues to bark orders at his son.
They didn't need another scene of Norman barking at Harry anymore than they needed more than one scene in Spidey 2 when the tentacles were infecting Ock's mind. Then there was the second scene where Ock takes control at the end. They should have had a similar scene with Harry, but didn't.

Quote:
Peter does need to know about Penny when Eddie knows about it because of the symbiote
The symbiote can learn new things. It likely learned about Penny from the physical contact with Marko since that was a heavily emotional strain on Marko.

Quote:
Psychic activity? When has it ever shown the symbiote to know something that one of its hosts didn't?
In Spider-Man 3

Seriously, every medium in which the symbiote was presented also showed new abilities for it- from the comics, to the 90's Spidey cartoon, to the movie to SSM. The powers have changed each time. So having something unique to the film is no big deal.

Quote:
And yet it wouldn't have slowed the pace any further, so there's that...
Not to you- but obviously to the director.

Quote:
And yet most of what's in the novelization is shot...it's not like the Spider-Man 2 where there are robots
That doesn't mean it was shot the way the novel depicts it. Again we only have general descriptions of these scenes. We don't know what the dialogue was. And further, these scenes involved SFX which cost money. Raimi likely didn't think the scenes were worth the expense as well as pacing or story issues.

Quote:
Look over that link I showed you, read the novelization...most of what's in the novelization is in the script and was filmed by Raimi.
I read the novel at its release. What you haven't read is the actual screenplay Raimi was shooting from, which could very well be different in content from what is in the novel, despite similar appearing scenes.

__________________
Kwai Cheng: Old man, how is it that you hear these things?
Master Po: Young man, how is it that you do not?

Kung-Fu, 1972
Dragon is offline  
Old 04-26-2013, 09:22 PM   #842
The Joker
Clown Prince of Crime
 
The Joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Jollity Farm
Posts: 37,315
Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
With 2.1 Raimi had footage that enhanced what we already had. It actually made good scenes better. Not the case with 3.
You think the scene of Jonah trying on the Spidey suit enhanced the movie?

I think the scene that was most beneficial was the scene with MJ and her friend where MJ explains why she's marrying John. It helps offer more insight and make her look less selfish.

__________________
"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

- The Joker

Last edited by The Joker; 04-26-2013 at 09:34 PM.
The Joker is offline  
Old 04-26-2013, 09:30 PM   #843
Dragon
No Way as Way
 
Dragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: New York, NY USA
Posts: 9,989
Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
You think the scene of Joan trying on the Spidey suit enhanced the movie?

I think the scene that was most beneficial was the scene with MJ and her friend where MJ explains why she's marrying John. It helps offer more insight and make her look less selfish.
I only think the additional action enhanced the film. I don't really think any of the dramatic stuff was necessary or made anything better. And for that matter Raimi himself didn't think a 2.1 was necessary. He did it at Columbia's request. My real point is that I can see a reason for doing 2.1. It wasn't necessary as 2 was excellent. It's just a little more eye-candy.

However in the case of a 3.1, there's nothing to help of the additional footage that was shot. Nothing to enhance the action or story. The only way a 3.1 would be justified is if they re-shot a lot of scenes, which would never happen.

__________________
Kwai Cheng: Old man, how is it that you hear these things?
Master Po: Young man, how is it that you do not?

Kung-Fu, 1972

Last edited by Dragon; 04-26-2013 at 09:40 PM.
Dragon is offline  
Old 04-26-2013, 09:38 PM   #844
SpideyVille
Walking out the Desert
 
SpideyVille's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The little part of the Big Apple
Posts: 20,732
Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
You think the scene of Joan trying on the Spidey suit enhanced the movie?

I think the scene that was most beneficial was the scene with MJ and her friend where MJ explains why she's marrying John. It helps offer more insight and make her look less selfish.
Exactly. Its easy to see why that Jonah scene was cut because big just made the movie seem cheesy and really took away from the rest of the drama, just like the extended version of the elevator scene did. Both were funny, but didn't fit the tone of the rest of the movie.

And the MJ scene with her friend was the only thing that gave an a real explanation of why MJ was settling for John, and why she moved on from Spidey.

__________________
SpideyVille is offline  
Old 04-26-2013, 10:26 PM   #845
Tacit Ronin
Side-Kick
 
Tacit Ronin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 10,277
Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Yup. 2.1 only enriched MJ. Everything else was superfluous.

__________________
Robert Downey Jr: Max Ray
Daniel Craig: Jake Rockwell
Chris Evans: Ace Mccloud
The Centurions Live Action Film!
Tacit Ronin is offline  
Old 04-26-2013, 10:40 PM   #846
Dragon
No Way as Way
 
Dragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: New York, NY USA
Posts: 9,989
Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Now that the subject has been breached, 2.1 didn't enhance MJ at all. Any villain has feelings of inadequacy and insecurity that leads them to do the f-ed up things they do. MJ feeling bad about herself and using John to make her feel better is no excuse. Yeah, the chick friend is ridiculous with the fantasy romance BS, but MJ still comes off as being as self-centered as she accuses Peter of being.

__________________
Kwai Cheng: Old man, how is it that you hear these things?
Master Po: Young man, how is it that you do not?

Kung-Fu, 1972
Dragon is offline  
Old 04-26-2013, 10:50 PM   #847
Anno_Domini
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
I'm absolutely fine with it, since it was incredibly obvious to me from the scene in the apartment what Marko intended to do with the money. Add to that that Marko reforms himself in the birth scene only after looking at the picture of Penny and being determined to help her and it's totally 'nuff said.

Not to mention that the doctor scene is not only superfluous, but brings up new problems. A doctor can't knowingly accept stolen money. And there's no freakin' way a doctor competent enough to help Penny would buy that Marko just found it somewhere.

Another point you're missing is that Marko isn't successful in his robberies. Spider-Man keeps stopping him from getting away with the money- thus why Marko feels he has to kill him. So the question of what he's doing with the money is moot.
Sucks that it's not "'nuff said" for a lot of people, lol.

Flint may have an idea on what to do with helping his daughter, but to the audience, it seems like Marko's just stealing money and just sitting on it. Not doing a damn thing with it.

Okay, so you bring in the "moot", okay, then...now it brings up a whole new problem that Spidey just let Sandman go and Flint plans on stealing more cash then? It's easy to assume that if you find it so easy to assume Flint has an idea on how to cure Penny even when the audience doesn't see.

Quote:
We don't know the dialogue from the scene other than a general description, so we have no idea if it could have been edited. It was pretty clear to me that Eddie's relationship with Gwen wasn't singularly important (Thus why they changed Gwen being kidnapped for MJ). It was just another example of Eddie's selfishness and poor perception.
And I say it could have been edited either way to help with the idea of Gwen and Eddie only having been in one date.

And yes, MJ was changed from Gwen, BUT...Gwen is essential to Eddie's downfall. Hence seeing Peter with Gwen being one of the last straws that takes him to the church. A scene with Eddie going to Gwen would have been essential in only part of Eddie's downward spiral arc.

Quote:
The symbiote doesn't change the host's appearance. The symbiote's appearance changes based on the mental state of the host. I believe that Raimi didn't feel it was necessary to scare Peter straight by the reflection. His hitting MJ and nearly killing Harry was enough for Peter to grasp that he was going in a bad direction.

Further, Raimi and co. probably also didn't want to spoil Venom's first appearance by showing the Venom-like image of Peter.
The Ultimate comics, Spider-Man:TAS, now the deleted scene of S-M 3...the idea of the symbiote changing and Peter seeing this has been done before and could have stayed. It wouldn't have hurt because it has been done before with the symbiote.

Quote:
They didn't need another scene of Norman barking at Harry anymore than they needed more than one scene in Spidey 2 when the tentacles were infecting Ock's mind. Then there was the second scene where Ock takes control at the end. They should have had a similar scene with Harry, but didn't.
Fully disagree. It would have been best to see more scenes of Norman ordering Harry around.

Quote:
The symbiote can learn new things. It likely learned about Penny from the physical contact with Marko since that was a heavily emotional strain on Marko.
This is known for a symbiote? To learn about Penny from someone that's not its host?

Quote:
In Spider-Man 3

Seriously, every medium in which the symbiote was presented also showed new abilities for it- from the comics, to the 90's Spidey cartoon, to the movie to SSM. The powers have changed each time. So having something unique to the film is no big deal.
Or it's just a massive **** up that they made Eddie know about Penny

Yah, I'll call it a massive **** up on the writers...at least the novelization did something smarter

Quote:
Not to you- but obviously to the director.
Yah, apparently the director wanted a **** Spider-Man 3, lol.

Quote:
That doesn't mean it was shot the way the novel depicts it. Again we only have general descriptions of these scenes. We don't know what the dialogue was. And further, these scenes involved SFX which cost money. Raimi likely didn't think the scenes were worth the expense as well as pacing or story issues.
The general idea is that, yes, Raimi did film the scenes that would most likely carry the same dialogue. Even the sandcastle is shown.

Quote:
I read the novel at its release. What you haven't read is the actual screenplay Raimi was shooting from, which could very well be different in content from what is in the novel, despite similar appearing scenes.
I would love to get my hands on the script, but I'm afraid it would only show what's in the theatrical cut, much like the script for TDKR even when there are other scenes not in the theatrical...same thing with S-M 3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
You think the scene of Jonah trying on the Spidey suit enhanced the movie?
Man, you have no idea how much that enhances Spider-Man 2!

Anno_Domini is offline  
Old 04-27-2013, 06:45 AM   #848
henzINNIT
Side-Kick
 
henzINNIT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,852
Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

I've never seen 2.1... Is it worth a watch?

As for this tiring back and forth over the usefulness of those deleted scenes; I think Dragon makes pretty good points about all EXCEPT the alternate team up of Marko and Brock.

From what I gather, the unused scenario is far better. It places a lot more pressure on Marko to accept the deal, gives us a reminder of why he is doing what he's doing at a point in the film where it's been lost, and Eddie is far more sinister.

henzINNIT is offline  
Old 04-27-2013, 07:30 AM   #849
Dragon
No Way as Way
 
Dragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: New York, NY USA
Posts: 9,989
Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anno_Domini View Post
Sucks that it's not "'nuff said" for a lot of people, lol.
For a lot of other people it is.

Quote:
Flint may have an idea on what to do with helping his daughter, but to the audience, it seems like Marko's just stealing money and just sitting on it. Not doing a damn thing with it.
I wasn't aware that the "audience" elected you to speak for them. Everyone I know of got Marko's intention clearly. Now- if you're talking about bringing in scenes of Penny actually being treated with a reasonable explanation about why the stolen money could be used etc. then I'd be on board with that. But we're discussing scenes that were actually shot.

Quote:
Okay, so you bring in the "moot", okay, then...now it brings up a whole new problem that Spidey just let Sandman go and Flint plans on stealing more cash then? It's easy to assume that if you find it so easy to assume Flint has an idea on how to cure Penny even when the audience doesn't see.
Again you speak for the audience. In that last scene, Spidey was offering Marko a truce. Spidey forgave him for Uncle Ben. That doesn't mean that he was going to allow him to continue a life of crime and wouldn't be there to stop him should he engage in more robberies. What was missing was a resolution about Penny's fate. Whether further treatment would help her or not.

Quote:
And I say it could have been edited either way to help with the idea of Gwen and Eddie only having been in one date.
Okay, I guess you've seen the footage then.

Quote:
And yes, MJ was changed from Gwen, BUT...Gwen is essential to Eddie's downfall. Hence seeing Peter with Gwen being one of the last straws that takes him to the church. A scene with Eddie going to Gwen would have been essential in only part of Eddie's downward spiral arc.
The scenes we have show Eddie's downward spiral. His assuredness that he'd get a criminal shot of Spidey, even though there's nothing to suggest he's a criminal. His assumption of a relationship with Gwen where there is none. His happily taking credit for his faked photo. Seeing Gwen with Peter was the final straw. Eddie blamed Peter for his downfall instead of realizing it was due to his own folly. An additional scene with Gwen would've done nothing for that.

Quote:
The Ultimate comics, Spider-Man:TAS, now the deleted scene of S-M 3...the idea of the symbiote changing and Peter seeing this has been done before and could have stayed. It wouldn't have hurt because it has been done before with the symbiote.
Let's go back to the point of this discussion- whether Sam Raimi felt the unused scenes would make for a worthwhile 3.1.

Quote:
Fully disagree. It would have been best to see more scenes of Norman ordering Harry around.
Uh... you are clear on the fact that Norman isn't actually there, right? That Norman is only Harry's craziness manifesting an hallucination? Not a ghostly apparition from beyond the grave? So he isn't actually ordering Harry. The plans are indeed Harry's own.

Quote:
This is known for a symbiote? To learn about Penny from someone that's not its host?
It is for this version- just as in Ultimate it wasn't an alien creature. As said, there are numerous reinterpretations for the symbiote and its abilities (Which is another reason I think Venom is a pretty crappy character).

Quote:
Or it's just a massive **** up that they made Eddie know about Penny

Yah, I'll call it a massive **** up on the writers...at least the novelization did something smarter
Which goes back to my point that the novel writer was free to add things as he saw fit that weren't in the script.

But the symbiote being able to read the minds or auras of those it makes physical contact with isn't far-fetched at all. That's an accepted ability in psychic circles. So this ALIEN CREATURE having that ability makes total sense.

Quote:
Yah, apparently the director wanted a **** Spider-Man 3, lol.
In your opinion. Let's remember that most people like Spidey 3. Certainly more than TASM. It's not great, but an enjoyable enough film.

Quote:
The general idea is that, yes, Raimi did film the scenes that would most likely carry the same dialogue. Even the sandcastle is shown.
It's a general assumption that the dialogue is the same. The sandcastle is a visual and doesn't suggest what dialogue was used in the scene.

Quote:
I would love to get my hands on the script, but I'm afraid it would only show what's in the theatrical cut, much like the script for TDKR even when there are other scenes not in the theatrical...same thing with S-M 3.
You're not talking about a script- but a transcript. Fans often do those simply by writing down what they see and hear on screen. An actual script will usually have everything written except for scenes and dialogue jettisoned well before shooting.

__________________
Kwai Cheng: Old man, how is it that you hear these things?
Master Po: Young man, how is it that you do not?

Kung-Fu, 1972
Dragon is offline  
Old 04-27-2013, 09:27 AM   #850
The Joker
Clown Prince of Crime
 
The Joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Jollity Farm
Posts: 37,315
Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Par

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
Now that the subject has been breached, 2.1 didn't enhance MJ at all. Any villain has feelings of inadequacy and insecurity that leads them to do the f-ed up things they do. MJ feeling bad about herself and using John to make her feel better is no excuse. Yeah, the chick friend is ridiculous with the fantasy romance BS, but MJ still comes off as being as self-centered as she accuses Peter of being.
I'm not saying it makes her look good or anything. She's still being selfish and self centered using John as a security blanket to fill a void in her life. I mean it at least goes a longer way to her at least explaining that it's an insecurity and safety factor with John.

In the regular cut she doesn't offer any explanation. She comes off worse offering no insight or justification on her behalf why she's with him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anno_Domini View Post
Man, you have no idea how much that enhances Spider-Man 2!
60 seconds of cornball cheese.

Quote:
Originally Posted by henzINNIT View Post
I've never seen 2.1... Is it worth a watch?
The action scenes are nice, and the MJ scene is worth a watch. But the rest is meh. The regular cut is much better overall.

__________________
"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

- The Joker

Last edited by The Joker; 04-27-2013 at 09:32 AM.
The Joker is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:11 PM.

monitoring_string = "dee460792f24517621e3ca080805de7e"
Contact Us - Mobile - SuperHeroHype - ComingSoon.net - Shock Till You Drop - Lost Password - Clear Cookies - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Top - AdChoices


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.