The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Part 8

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

It's a great shame that Venom was forced upon Raimi...

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by The Joker

It would work for me because the best Spidey villains are the old school ones, IMO. The symbiotes can go to hell.

I only agree when it comes to any symbiote character after Venom. Black-suited Spider-Man, Venom...that can be a very interesting storyline if someone cared enough to take time out and elaborate on that. Raimi just wasn't a fan of the new school stuff and I don't blame him on that, but I found what TSSM did to be interesting and part of the Venom arc in Spider-Man:TAS to be interested as well. But, leave certain villains like Venom to people that cared about them or actually understood them; what Arad did was pushed a new school villain into an old school idea of what Raimi essentially wanted to do with Spider-Man.

[Doc Ock]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Question; since Raimi is openly old school when it comes to Spidey, meaning he grew up with the 60's/70's Spidey comics, and therefore was obviously more into the classic villains like the Osborn Goblins, Doc Ock, Sandman, Vulture etc, would you have been satisfied if none of the new generation villains like Venom, Hobgoblin etc were never done, and Raimi only brought us the old school villains, assuming he had stayed on for a Spider-Man 4 and maybe even a 5th one?

Yes I would be fine if none of the newer villain appears and Raimi used the older more developed ones. Ock, Sandman, the Osborns are highly developed and more superior/deeper in the comics compared to the likes of the Symbiotes and such largely due to their history. I was really hoping we were getting The Lizard eventually in the Raimi films with Connors appearing in the second and third films. I think the Vulture could of been great too as well as Black Cat, Electro, and other classic villains could fit well in Raimi's world. Although I think Hobgoblin could be neat, I think it would be neat way to continue the use of Norman Osborn's "shadow."

Originally Posted by The Joker

I'm with Raimi;



http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20037557,00.html

Yeah....stinking Avi Arad. I almost took the ASM bonus disc out of my PS3 when watching the special features and his punch-able face showed up...sorry...I really don't like Avi Arad at all. I yelled SHUT UP at the TV.

Originally Posted by Picard Sisko

I think they should have let the guy make the movies he wanted to make, and maybe have him introduce the symbiote in there for future movies. So let him make 3-4 films, then move on to a new director that understands the newer material.

The symbiotes could of been used for a spinoff Venom film(s) and not have interfered with the Raimi movies but took place in the same world like the MCU.

Originally Posted by Pfeiffer-Pfan

It's a great shame that Venom was forced upon Raimi...

Utter travesty. I really like SM3 but the Sandman and New Goblin storylines of the film are definitely the better parts.

[Picard Sisko]

Sandman would have been better if Venom wasn't forced into there.

[The Joker]

Doc Ock, I love your avatar. I've always loved that pic;

[SpideyVille]

Sandman would have been better if he were actually given a chance to develop. I still don't think we should have gotten New Goblin until at least the next film. I also would have really loved to have seen Norman appear at Harry's grave, as a way of setting up his return in a future film, since I believe he came back from the dead before in the comics.

[Doc Ock]

Originally Posted by Picard Sisko

Sandman would have been better if Venom wasn't forced into there.

Exactly! CURSE YOU AVI ARAD!!!

Originally Posted by The Joker

Doc Ock, I love your avatar. I've always loved that pic;

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Yeah its a fantastic pic! I figured I needed my avatar to match my username, I'm always on a quest for the perfect avatar. Sure its just a picture...but they're cool...

[Picard Sisko]

Harry became New Goblin way too quickly. He finds his dad's equipment at the end of SM2, then suddenly uses his dad's formula and that's it. They never explained why Harry never went crazy either.

[SpideyVille]

Originally Posted by Picard Sisko

Harry became New Goblin way too quickly. He finds his dad's equipment at the end of SM2, then suddenly uses his dad's formula and that's it. They never explained why Harry never went crazy either.

Yeah, I was hoping they would build on the ambiguity of the end of SM2, where you didn't know if he was going to take the serum or not.

I think, when I look back at SM3, that scene where he comes out of the Goblin chamber is the first red flag that something was wrong with the movie, because it literally happens in the first 5-10 minutes, with no buildup other than what we knew from SM2.

[Doc Ock]

Originally Posted by SpideyVille

I also would have really loved to have seen Norman appear at Harry's grave, as a way of setting up his return in a future film, since I believe he came back from the dead before in the comics.

I'd pee my pants in gleeful excitement if that happened!

Originally Posted by Picard Sisko

Harry became New Goblin way too quickly. He finds his dad's equipment at the end of SM2, then suddenly uses his dad's formula and that's it. They never explained why Harry never went crazy either.

I loved that scene to death in SM2, made my eyes very wide. I liked the New Goblin storyline it did seem really fast though but I think the whole symbiote thing really screwed over the entire plotline of the film. I don't care what is said, I don't blame Raimi.

[Picard Sisko]

Originally Posted by SpideyVille

Yeah, I was hoping they would build on the ambiguity of the end of SM2, where you didn't know if he was going to take the serum or not.

I think, when I look back at SM3, that scene where he comes out of the Goblin chamber is the first red flag that something was wrong with the movie, because it literally happens in the first 5-10 minutes, with no buildup other than what we knew from SM2.

Originally Posted by Doc Ock

I loved that scene to death in SM2, made my eyes very wide. I liked the New Goblin storyline it did seem really fast though but I think the whole symbiote thing really screwed over the entire plotline of the film. I don't care what is said, I don't blame Raimi.

Same.

[The Joker]

Look at the first 20 minutes of Spider-Man 3;

- Harry becomes New Goblin
- The symbiote arrives
- Sandman is created

You just know that this movie is going to be over stuffed when all of that happens in such a short space of time. That was the main problem with SM-3. It bit off WAY more than it could chew.

[Picard Sisko]

Why, Avi Arad? Why?

[The Joker]

Btw did anyone else find the concept of Peter being picked on in college silly? I'm talking about the scene where those two idiots were pea shooting at him in class like a couple of teenagers, and then that other idiot in the front row is reflecting light in his eye.

Honestly Raimi, tone it down!

[Picard Sisko]

I'm in college, and I've seen people getting picked on. It happens.

[The Joker]

I don't believe that. Not like that. Not the way Raimi showed it. That was juvenile rubbish.

[SpideyVille]

Originally Posted by Doc Ock

I'd pee my pants in gleeful excitement if that happened!

I think if Raimi had sequeks in mind from the start, we could have gotten something that brought everything full circle in the 5th or 6th film, where Pete has to fight Norman after being haunted by memories of what happened to him after Harry's eventual death.

Sadly though, I get the feeling that Raimi and the cast knew they were done after the third film.

Originally Posted by The Joker

You just know that this movie is going to be over stuffed when all of that happens in such a short space of time. That was the main problem with SM-3. It bit off WAY more than it could chew.

The only other movie in recent memory that did the same and gave me the same feeling was X-Men: The Last Stand, which also ended up being an overstuffed film.

Originally Posted by The Joker

Btw did anyone else find the concept of Peter being picked on in college silly? I'm talking about the scene where those two idiots were pea shooting at him in class like a couple of teenagers, and then that other idiot in the front row is reflecting light in his eye.

Honestly Raimi, tone it down!

Now that I think about it, it does seem weird. But I guess I never questioned it because it felt like it was in keeping with how Peter was always picked on in the comics. I think it would have been more logical had it been someone like Flash, as opposed to other science nerds.

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Btw did anyone else find the concept of Peter being picked on in college silly? I'm talking about the scene where those two idiots were pea shooting at him in class like a couple of teenagers, and then that other idiot in the front row is reflecting light in his eye.

Honestly Raimi, tone it down!

College essentially means University in America, right?

People don't ususally get bullied in University but I thought Peter was in High/Secondary School?

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by SpideyVille

Now that I think about it, it does seem weird. But I guess I never questioned it because it felt like it was in keeping with how Peter was always picked on in the comics. I think it would have been more logical had it been someone like Flash, as opposed to other science nerds.

Exactly. Why are these college Science guys picking on Peter like stupid juvenile brats? Three different ones in the same class, too. It was ridiculous and unbelievable.

Originally Posted by Pfeiffer-Pfan

College essentially means University in America, right?

People don't ususally get bullied in University but I thought Peter was in High/Secondary School?

Peter graduated High School in Spider-Man 1 remember? This was college he was in now. Remember the dialogue between Peter and Connors in SM-2;

Connors: "Your paper on Fusion is still overdue"
Peter: "I know, I'm planning to write it on Dr. Otto Octavius"
Connors: "Planning is not a major at this University"

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Peter graduated High School in Spider-Man 1 remember? This was college he was in now. Remember the dialogue between Peter and Connors in SM-2;

Connors: "Your paper on Fusion is still overdue"
Peter: "I know, I'm planning to write it on Dr. Otto Octavius"
Connors: "Planning is not a major at this University"

Oh yeah... well in that case, bullying is very common in Secondary School. That scene never struck me as unusual.

[Anno_Domini]

Here's something I'd like to bring up to further continue with Joker's question even...say Raimi had his pie and ate it too with only giving us the old school villains, who would've shown up in Spider-Man 4?

Spider-Man - Green Goblin

Spider-Man 2 - Doc Ock

Spider-Man 3 - Vulture, Sandman, New Goblin

Spider-Man 4 - ?

Originally Posted by Picard Sisko

Sandman would have been better if Venom wasn't forced into there.

With the retcon still in place, I would have to disagree. I am someone that really, really, really despises retcons in films, television, video games. Especially way unnecessary ones.

Originally Posted by The Joker

Btw did anyone else find the concept of Peter being picked on in college silly? I'm talking about the scene where those two idiots were pea shooting at him in class like a couple of teenagers, and then that other idiot in the front row is reflecting light in his eye.

Honestly Raimi, tone it down!

That was one of those hammy moments that Raimi could've taken out with his first two Spidey films. They were great movies, but there were obvious moments where Raimi went a bit too far.

[Picard Sisko]

Even if there was a retcon, and the movie came out really good, you don't think he would have been better?

[Anno_Domini]

With the retcon still in place, no, I don't. He could have been developed miles better in S-M 3, but the retcon, in my opinion, would always bring him down if Raimi still insisted to give us a retcon involving Marko being Ben's real killer.

I would have liked to see some more development on Marko's dying kid though and get some kind of resolution on that and NOT have Marko fly away in the end.

[Picard Sisko]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

With the retcon still in place, no, I don't. He could have been developed miles better in S-M 3, but the retcon, in my opinion, would always bring him down if Raimi still insisted to give us a retcon involving Marko being Ben's real killer.

I would have liked to see some more development on Marko's dying kid though and get some kind of resolution on that and NOT have Marko fly away in the end.

To each his own. Although I'm not a huge fan of retcons, I will forgive them if the story is good and well-written.

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

Going off the What-If where we have Vulture, Sandman and New Goblin in 3:

Spider-Man 4: Symbiote, Black-Suit Spider-Man. Villains include Scorpion plus Shocker as a street gang leader and Black Tarantula as his rival. J.J. thinks Symbiote Spider-Man is working with Black Tarantula since they have similar outfits. He's disgusted that the media loves Spider-Man. He funds the creation of Scorpion.

Spider-Man 5: Everyone loves it, so why not a Kraven/Lizard combination. Connors has been researching the herpetology in an attempt to regrow his arm. Kraven comes to New York for reasons of his own to hunt down Black Suite Spider-Man. At the end, Peter abandons the Black Suite.

Spider-Man 6: The symbiote finds Eddie Brock and merges with him. Venom wages a subtle war on Spider-Man. This is an experimental idea, but what if Venom could break off tendrils of the symbiote and use them to manipulate individuals like puppets? I'd have him do that with some of Peter's loved ones who've passed on. At the end Spider-Man settles down with Gwen.

Eddie would be a character throughout; a sleuth who wants to use the power of the press to bring justice dened to him as a child when his parents were killed by gangsters who held the strings of several local politicians, newspapers and newsstations. His desire for the truth leads to his downfall, where he loses everything he's worked for. The symbiote is like a drug; at first it sends him on heady trips where all his love ones are still alive.

In order to bend Eddie to its will, the symbiote makes it appear as if Spider-Man's meddling has killed the illusionary loved ones Eddie has found on his symbiotic highs. The symbiote would use Spider-Man because it was rejected by Peter and because Spider-Man revealed some unsavory deals Eddie had made in New York to get his stories.

How would you have felt if the kid were less an emotional anchor to make us sympathize with Sandman and more a crutch Marko used to justify his decision to pursue a life of crime?