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Old 04-24-2013, 02:12 PM   #801
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show? - Part 1

Considering firing Fury is a stupid ass decision, can he choose to ignore that too?

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Old 04-24-2013, 04:20 PM   #802
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show? - Part 1

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Like a less extreme version of Ozymandias, my favorite Watchmen character.
Or a more heroic version of Serenity's Operative.

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Considering firing Fury is a stupid ass decision, can he choose to ignore that too?
He will, and they know it. That's why they have to (try to) kill him, or making him an international criminal. That's what they'll want to do, because even if he was right, shadowy figures on screens want power more than they want to save lives, especially it means trusting the Avengers, especially if the Avengers don't fall in line, which they won't. Fury is going to get hammered... or even H.A.M.M.E.R.ed... or maybe just Hammered... but not hammered, like Tony used to. But the WSC is going to come down hard, because they're not the good guys.

It's okay though, the rest of the Avengers are going to get it much worse (assuming Fury survives, and if Whedon decides to kill him, I'll elect to ignore that).

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Old 04-24-2013, 05:04 PM   #803
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show? - Part 1

Probably, actually. Or at least, he can make them direly regret it.

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Old 04-25-2013, 03:19 AM   #804
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show? - Part 1

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I'm not so sure, myself. I think its equally likely that the WSC will grumble, but admit to themselves that they almost screwed up, and trying to punish Fury for being right has too many downsides to be worth it.

That said, Fury *was* right, and he might even be able to invoke the illegal order doctrine if necessary.

Ordering a nuclear strike against a civilian population is a war crime and Fury was absolutely correct in refusing to comply. The WSC could be held to account for that, as millions saw the missile coming in on live TV. Even the pilot could conceivably be punished for launching the missile, just as soldiers have been tried for participating in war crimes under the orders of their superiors.

It's interesting to note that one of the reasons cited by the US Department of Defense for refusing to assist the production of The Avengers was that very sequence. The DOD was concerned with the role of the WSC and the US military in carrying out the order to nuke Manhattan. That was a valid sticking point as the US military's position is that it won't support movies that portray service members taking illegal actions.

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Old 04-25-2013, 06:47 AM   #805
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show? - Part 1

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Ordering a nuclear strike against a civilian population is a war crime and Fury was absolutely correct in refusing to comply. The WSC could be held to account for that, as millions saw the missile coming in on live TV. Even the pilot could conceivably be punished for launching the missile, just as soldiers have been tried for participating in war crimes under the orders of their superiors.

It's interesting to note that one of the reasons cited by the US Department of Defense for refusing to assist the production of The Avengers was that very sequence. The DOD was concerned with the role of the WSC and the US military in carrying out the order to nuke Manhattan. That was a valid sticking point as the US military's position is that it won't support movies that portray service members taking illegal actions.
I don't know what happened with Independence Day and whether the DOD were even asked for support on that film, but I remember there was a similar scenario, wasn't there? But it was the POTUS who ordered the nuclear strike. Was it actually launched and it didn't have any effect, or were they thinking of launching it and found it wouldn't have had any effect? I don't remember now. I get the feeling it was the former.

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Old 04-25-2013, 08:14 AM   #806
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show? - Part 1

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I don't know what happened with Independence Day and whether the DOD were even asked for support on that film, but I remember there was a similar scenario, wasn't there? But it was the POTUS who ordered the nuclear strike. Was it actually launched and it didn't have any effect, or were they thinking of launching it and found it wouldn't have had any effect? I don't remember now. I get the feeling it was the former.
Yup, they launched against a ship that was near Dallas, TX, at the time. And yeah, it wasn't effective: "Target remains. I repeat. Target...remains." I love that movie.

But the circumstances were a little different. The aliens had already destroyed all of the biggest, most populated cities and had killed tens of millions of people all over the world. And Dallas had mostly been evacuated, so it wasn't like the nuke would have instantly killed millions of civilians.

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Old 04-25-2013, 08:30 AM   #807
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show? - Part 1

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Yup, they launched against a ship that was near Dallas, TX, at the time. And yeah, it wasn't effective: "Target remains. I repeat. Target...remains." I love that movie.

But the circumstances were a little different. The aliens had already destroyed all of the biggest, most populated cities and had killed tens of millions of people all over the world. And Dallas had mostly been evacuated, so it wasn't like the nuke would have instantly killed millions of civilians.
Same here. In fact, I wish the Avengers had some elements more like that. Specifically, in Independence Day, they didn't just defeat the aliens by flying a nuke into the heart of the ship or portal, like Iron Man did. When they did that in Independence Day, that was only AFTER they figured out how to disable the ships' shields and Jeff Goldblum and Will Smith had uploaded a virus. So they had to use their intelligence to beat the aliens.

I would've liked to see Tony Stark and Bruce Banner doing something similar, and maybe having Hawkeye piloting a ship that was carrying them (to give him something more heroic to do). Imagine Stark and/or Banner in the Goldblum role and Hawkeye in the Smith role in that scene.

Of course, they wouldn't be able to copy it, but Whedon could've come up with a similar scenario. I just thought that element gave Independence Day more of a smartness in that area that the Avengers lacked, where it seemed that in the Avengers the aliens were ultimately destroyed by brute force rather than wits.

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Old 04-25-2013, 09:07 AM   #808
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show? - Part 1

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Same here. In fact, I wish the Avengers had some elements more like that. Specifically, in Independence Day, they didn't just defeat the aliens by flying a nuke into the heart of the ship or portal, like Iron Man did. When they did that in Independence Day, that was only AFTER they figured out how to disable the ships' shields and Jeff Goldblum and Will Smith had uploaded a virus. So they had to use their intelligence to beat the aliens.

I would've liked to see Tony Stark and Bruce Banner doing something similar, and maybe having Hawkeye piloting a ship that was carrying them (to give him something more heroic to do). Imagine Stark and/or Banner in the Goldblum role and Hawkeye in the Smith role in that scene.

Of course, they wouldn't be able to copy it, but Whedon could've come up with a similar scenario. I just thought that element gave Independence Day more of a smartness in that area that the Avengers lacked, where it seemed that in the Avengers the aliens were ultimately destroyed by brute force rather than wits.
I loved ID4 at the time, and still do actually, but looking back on that plot point it is like "What?". I mean it is a little nonsensical. These aliens that came form worlds away with technology powerful enough for force shields and mega photon canons, have computer systems based on Unix???? And they don't have virus protection???

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Old 04-25-2013, 09:38 AM   #809
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show? - Part 1

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I loved ID4 at the time, and still do actually, but looking back on that plot point it is like "What?". I mean it is a little nonsensical. These aliens that came form worlds away with technology powerful enough for force shields and mega photon canons, have computer systems based on Unix???? And they don't have virus protection???
But if they did something similar in the Avengers (not saying it should be a virus, but if it were) they could've had it more like an actual virus like in Star Trek: TNG where Picard was originally wanted to use to infect the Borg and kill every last one of them. I think he had Dr Crusher synthesise a nano virus to upload to Hugh Borg, and then when he joined with the collective again they would all be affected. But Crusher protested against what would've amounted to mass genocide.

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Old 04-25-2013, 12:47 PM   #810
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show? - Part 1

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But if they did something similar in the Avengers (not saying it should be a virus, but if it were) they could've had it more like an actual virus like in Star Trek: TNG where Picard was originally wanted to use to infect the Borg and kill every last one of them. I think he had Dr Crusher synthesise a nano virus to upload to Hugh Borg, and then when he joined with the collective again they would all be affected. But Crusher protested against what would've amounted to mass genocide.
That would've added another 15-20 mins of the film which was unnecessary. I'm glad it didn't do this no offense. It would of just made it too much.

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Old 04-25-2013, 02:18 PM   #811
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show? - Part 1

August was great on this week's Arrow! Makes me think he's playing a villain.

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Old 04-25-2013, 06:22 PM   #812
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show? - Part 1

I actually don't think nuking NYC intrinsically would be a war crime; in the face of an actual alien invasion, its a possible rational response. However, it could still be argued as an illegal order on the grounds that it was response that was not, yet, militarily justifiable. The forces on the ground ( ie, the Avengers ) *were* containing and holding back the invaders at the time.

So, you would argue its a war crime not because it would kill civilians, but because it would *unnecessarily* kill civilians. As opposed to if the alien invasion were rolling along stomping all attempt at a defense, in which case it would go from "war crime" to "unavoidable collateral damage".

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Old 04-26-2013, 03:52 PM   #813
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show? - Part 1

How Coulson returns has been (purportedly) leaked.

http://www.slashfilm.com/want-to-kno...f-s-h-i-e-l-d/

That's pretty...expected. Like, that's it?

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Old 04-26-2013, 04:20 PM   #814
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show? - Part 1

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How Coulson returns has been (purportedly) leaked.

http://www.slashfilm.com/want-to-kno...f-s-h-i-e-l-d/

That's pretty...expected. Like, that's it?
I'm trying to verify if there's any truth to this, I'd be very surprised if someone leaked something that specific.

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Old 04-26-2013, 04:20 PM   #815
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show? - Part 1

Man, that was the one thing I was hoping wouldn't happen. I'd have to see exactly how it's done, but Joss usually has more flair with these kinds of things.

It's no biggie though. How he comes back isn't really important in the long run. I'm sure it'll just effect him for a few episodes.

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Old 04-26-2013, 04:56 PM   #816
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show? - Part 1

One of the things that makes me question the validity of this rumor is there's an interview with Clark Gregg from not too long ago that said the mystery of Coulson's death was going to take some time to unravel... doesn't sounds like it's something as straight forward as claimed in that article.

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Old 04-26-2013, 05:02 PM   #817
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show? - Part 1

Well the article says it would be something that develops over time.

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Old 04-26-2013, 08:17 PM   #818
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show? - Part 1

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How Coulson returns has been (purportedly) leaked.

http://www.slashfilm.com/want-to-kno...f-s-h-i-e-l-d/

That's pretty...expected. Like, that's it?

I call bull****. What they've described is simply too stupid for Joss Whedon to even consider doing. It's also patently ridiculous in light of the fact that we actually saw Coulson get run through with Loki's spear in The Avengers. Fury would have required Loki's help in faking that, unless we're going to be expected to believe that it never happened. After suffering a devastating wound like that Coulson wouldn't be able to hold his breath to fake death. Hell, he wouldn't have to. And holding one's breath would not fool the EMTs, doctors, nurses and technicians who would examine a supposedly dead body.


In short, what /Film described is just too childish for a Whedon show. It would be absolutely shocking (not to mention appalling) if true.

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Old 04-26-2013, 08:20 PM   #819
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show? - Part 1

lol appalling... The righteous indignation when it comes to some of this stuff, I swear...

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Old 04-26-2013, 08:24 PM   #820
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show? - Part 1

Well, c'mon holding his breath? That sounds like something I'd have written when I was ten.

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Old 04-26-2013, 08:25 PM   #821
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show? - Part 1

True, but still.

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Old 04-26-2013, 08:57 PM   #822
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show? - Part 1

It does sound like Fanficiton lol. But like they've said repeatedly and even in that article, there's some mystery around it.

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Old 04-26-2013, 09:14 PM   #823
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show? - Part 1

That's not mystery; that would be just plain bad cope out writing.

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Old 04-26-2013, 09:57 PM   #824
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show? - Part 1

This is awesome stuff guys! I think you guys are really underestimating Coulson. He's a trained SHIELD agent and utter badass. We've seen guys fake their death by stopping their breathing before.


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Old 04-26-2013, 11:12 PM   #825
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show? - Part 1

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lol appalling... The righteous indignation when it comes to some of this stuff, I swear...
From a professional writer, having a character get impaled and then fake his death by holding his breath, fooling an experienced medical team by doing so, would be appalling. How long would Coulson have to hold his breath to fool all of the doctors, nurses and techs who would see his body? Hours? Days? What would happen when they zipped him into a body bag? Bet he wouldn't have to hold his breath long after that.


And this is not even considering the fact that they'd use equipment to check his vital signs, as well as possibly attempt resuscitation. The EMTs who examined Coulson wouldn't just look at him slumped there with his eyes open and assume that all was lost. They would have examined him thoroughly to determine his condition. Even a good old fashioned stethoscope would be able to detect Coulson's heartbeat, unless someone is going to suggest that he stopped his heart, too.


I'm not even going to get into the fact that we actually saw the spear punch through Coulson's chest. Unless he was replaced by an LMD there is no way he'd have been in any shape to fool around holding his breath to fake death -- he would have been too busy trying to breathe, period.

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