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Old 01-16-2013, 10:11 AM   #51
Optimus_Prime_
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Default Re: Voluntaryism

I have been, it's kind of insulting of you to assume I haven't encountered this idea before.

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Old 01-16-2013, 10:23 AM   #52
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People are brand loyal for a reason. What's wrong with that?
What's the reason? Could be a horrible reason.
Quote:
What's wrong with eating **** every now and then.
Puts a huge strain on the health sector. Causes eating disorders. Can lead obesity. Increases the levels of certain diseases in our population. Tons of things can be wrong with it.
Quote:
There is a reason there are Fords, Toyotas, and Bentleys. There are difference levels of peoples desires and priorities.
Those desires and priorities often conflict.
Quote:
Nothing. Caveat emptor, Buyer Beware. Risk is a part of life, be careful who you endorse with your dollars.
So I'm on my own? This idea is starting to sound not so good.
Quote:
Then start your own. There are always options.
An individual can't create his own cable company. School system. Health system. He can't build an MRI machine. He'll need the involvement of others. What mechanism do you have for that?
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I shouldn't have to explain why 1+1=2 to talk about Advanced Calculus. No Offense intended, but think things through a little.
This isn't 1+1=2. You think it is, which is why you're having so much trouble understanding these questions.

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Old 01-16-2013, 10:25 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime_ View Post
I have been, it's kind of insulting of you to assume I haven't encountered this idea before.
I don't care if you feel insulted. You have complete control of your emotions and decide what is worthy of your consideration for insult.

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"Everyday that Congress meets, you lose a little bit more of your Liberty"
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:31 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime_ View Post
What's the reason? Could be a horrible reason.

Puts a huge strain on the health sector. Causes eating disorders. Can lead obesity. Increases the levels of certain diseases in our population. Tons of things can be wrong with it.

Those desires and priorities often conflict.

So I'm on my own? This idea is starting to sound not so good.
Either put your faith in your own abilities to research or not. That's your choice. What's the alternative? Use guns to force people to pay taxes so you can start a commission of people to decide what is healthy and safe, and the basis of their decisions are clouded by campaign donations by the same corporations being reviewed?? It sounds like you are more on your own with a political solutions than without one.

Quote:
An individual can't create his own cable company. School system. Health system. He can't build an MRI machine. He'll need the involvement of others. What mechanism do you have for that?
Again, the Free market is the mechanism for delivering desired goods and services to the people that want it.

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This isn't 1+1=2. You think it is, which is why you're having so much trouble understanding these questions.
I think Freedom IS 1+1. It IS Simple. Start to think like an entrepreneur. You are seeing possible problems with absolute freedom. Think of what you could do to profit on those perceived problems, because so would every other person. That would fix these issues.

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"Everyday that Congress meets, you lose a little bit more of your Liberty"

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Old 01-16-2013, 10:38 AM   #55
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Either put your faith in your own abilities to research or not. That's your choice. What's the alternative? Use guns to force people to pay taxes so you can start a commission of people to decide what is healthy and safe, and the basis of their decisions are clouded by campaign donations by the same corporations being reviewed??
I didn't put forth your flimsy argument, you did.

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It sounds like you are more on your own with a political solutions than without one.
Bald assumption. You have yet to prove your position offers a better alternative.
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Again, the Free market is the mechanism for delivering desired goods and services to the people that want it.
That wasn't the question I posed.
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I think Freedom IS 1+1. It IS Simple.
So why have much smarter people than you been debating the concept for thousands of years? Your own mind precludes you having total free will (considering you have 98% of your decisions made without actually being aware you've done so).
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Start to think like an entrepreneur.
I am one.
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Originally Posted by SuBe View Post
You are seeing possible problems with absolute freedom.
Yeah, it's called having a discussion. Challenging a preconceived notion.
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Think of what you could do to profit on those perceived problems, because so would every other person. That would fix these issues.
Sentimental nonsense, doesn't address anything.


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Old 01-16-2013, 10:46 AM   #56
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That wasn't the question I posed.

So why have much smarter people than you been debating the concept for thousands of years? Your own mind precludes you having total free will (considering you have 98% of your decisions made without actually being aware you've done so).
How is the Free Market not a "mechanism" to solve issues with a need in society and a populace willing to have that need addressed?

Why haven't "smarter" people than I won the Argument for freedom? Simple. It is easier to live life blind and herded by masters than be truly free.

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"Everyday that Congress meets, you lose a little bit more of your Liberty"
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:48 AM   #57
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How is the Free Market not a "mechanism" to solve issues with a need in society and a populace willing to have that need addressed?
Go back and reread the exchange and see if you can understand what I was asking.

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Why haven't "smarter" people than I won the Argument for freedom? Simple. It is easier to live life blind and herded by masters than be truly free.
So when are they featuring your lecture series at Oxford?

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Old 01-16-2013, 11:12 AM   #58
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Go back and reread the exchange and see if you can understand what I was asking.
Perhaps I am not understanding your question.
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So when are they featuring your lecture series at Oxford?
When has anyone that advocates for a Stateless Society been allowed to speak at a State Funded university. That's like having an Abolitionist being invited to speak in front of a bunch of Slave Owning Aristocrats. They won't really be welcome. Defenders of the State are given medals and recognition. Not those that want to abolish it.

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Old 01-16-2013, 03:01 PM   #59
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GAH! Everytime I see this thread name I keep thinking it says "Voyeurism"

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Old 01-16-2013, 03:02 PM   #60
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GAH! Everytime I see this thread name I keep thinking it says "Voyeurism"
As long as it is based on Voluntary Association and not force or coercion, so be it.

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Old 01-16-2013, 03:05 PM   #61
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GAH! Everytime I see this thread name I keep thinking it says "Voyeurism"
It's what I keep thinking too.

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Old 01-16-2013, 03:18 PM   #62
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Voluntaryism is a rebranded form of Anarcho-capitalism. Just saw another page on it. It used the Anarcho-capitalist flag. I studied that a lot in college. That idea is old as dirt. They just call it something different here.

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Old 01-16-2013, 03:32 PM   #63
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Voluntaryism is a rebranded form of Anarcho-capitalism. Just saw another page on it. It used the Anarcho-capitalist flag. I studied that a lot in college. That idea is old as dirt. They just call it something different here.
It's partially because Anarchy, the word itself, has come to mean Chaotic behavior and Capitalism gets a bad wrap. The word "Voluntaryism" is a better representative of the philosophy.

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Old 01-16-2013, 04:57 PM   #64
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It's partially because Anarchy, the word itself, has come to mean Chaotic behavior and Capitalism gets a bad wrap. The word "Voluntaryism" is a better representative of the philosophy.
It's also been called "The Philosophy of the Spoiled and Rich".


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Old 01-16-2013, 05:09 PM   #65
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It's also been called "The Philosophy of the Spoiled and Rich".
I don't see how being Free has anything to do with being spoiled or rich. Many slaves are spoiled. And many slaves are rich.

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Old 01-16-2013, 05:27 PM   #66
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I don't see how being Free has anything to do with being spoiled or rich. Many slaves are spoiled. And many slaves are rich.
It's because the general underpinning of taxes being an ultimate evil, and the notion of negative liberty (freedom from something) is generally something that only appeals to people with money.

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Old 01-16-2013, 05:32 PM   #67
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It's because the general underpinning of taxes being an ultimate evil, and the notion of negative liberty (freedom from something) is generally something that only appeals to people with money.
Taxation is evil. It's theft. How is it not evil to put on a costume, go to someone, threaten their life or future liberty, and demand money? That's what muggers do and that is what Taxation is.

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Old 01-16-2013, 05:39 PM   #68
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Taxation is evil. It's theft. How is it not evil to put on a costume, go to someone, threaten their life or future liberty, and demand money? That's what muggers do and that is what Taxation is.
That's a complete stretch.

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Old 01-16-2013, 05:44 PM   #69
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That's a complete stretch.
Go on...

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Old 01-16-2013, 05:50 PM   #70
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Go on...
Yet again you make bald assertions. Fail to back them up and ask others to prove a negative. You made the asinine point, not I.

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Old 01-16-2013, 05:51 PM   #71
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Yet again you make bald assertions. Fail to back them up and ask others to prove a negative. You made the asinine point, not I.
Can you explain how Taxation is not theft? Can you explain any difference to what I wrote versus the reality of what it is?

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Old 01-16-2013, 05:54 PM   #72
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Can you explain how Taxation is not theft? Can you explain any difference to what I wrote versus the reality of what it is?
Logical fallacy. No such thing as proving a negative.

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Old 01-16-2013, 05:55 PM   #73
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Logical fallacy. No such thing as proving a negative.
So, you can't explain how Taxation isn't theft. Ok. Then can you illustrate how it's a "complete stretch"?

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Old 01-16-2013, 07:51 PM   #74
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So, you can't explain how Taxation isn't theft. Ok. Then can you illustrate how it's a "complete stretch"?
Would you prefer that doesn't seem like a realistic and valid comparison?

Theft in and of itself isn't a thing either. That's also a construct created by [whatever is] your education just like this "free-dom" you keep alluding to. These are not forms as Socrates might have said, they're mental constructs.

You're entire problem is you keep making bald assertions. You can't say "freedom" and just expect everyone to accept your definition, you have to back it up, which you don't do. You just pontificate and say "oh, well prove it's not". That really shows a lack of depth in your argument, which if you ever want to convince anyone of anything is the key to making a solid argument.

You still didn't answer my question before: what if I don't like the free market's solution to my problem and I cannot physically solve it by myself? Who would be there to provide help?

That's a really basic government question.


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Old 01-16-2013, 09:12 PM   #75
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So, you can't explain how Taxation isn't theft.
I can.

Taxation is an arrangement in which a person is given citizenship of a nation and all of the protection and services that entails, and in return for that they give a small portion of their earnings to that nation to contribute toward paying for expenses those protections and services require. Paying taxes is the equivalent of paying rent.

Now, you might argue that it's not totally analogous because when you don't pay your rent, your landlord simply kicks you out, he doesn't imprison you. But when the scaled up equivalent of that is deportation, well, I think a relatively short sentence in a minimum security prison for tax evasion is a much more preferable consequence than deportation.

The only area in which I agree with you is when people who live completely off the grid and manage to be self sufficient and not ever use outside resources, a lifestyle I would never choose for myself but fully respect, are bullied by local authorities to force them into a situation where they legally have to pay up to the government. That is wrong. But that doesn't mean that taxation itself is wrong, I don't believe that at all. I'm happy to pay my fair share, and I think other people who use the same public resources I do should as well. It's a perfectly reasonable system, it's just that forcing people to exist inside of that system when they don't want to and manage not to without hurting anyone is overstepping a boundary.

But taxation, in of itself, is absolutely not theft.

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