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Old 01-17-2013, 03:47 PM   #101
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Getting sick.
Yes, you could get sick, but isn't the responsibility to mend oneself their own? Why wouldn't the person have some sort of insurance? Did they get sick through their own risky behavior? Did they get hurt by their own actions?

Does being sick warrant violating the Non-Aggression Principle? Does being sick allow you to force others into paying your personal debt? Of course not. That is why it would be important to plan for "rainy days", whether that be by saving, of insurance, loans or charity. All of these options are based in voluntary associations.

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Old 01-17-2013, 03:52 PM   #102
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Yes, you could get sick, but isn't the responsibility to mend oneself their own? Why wouldn't the person have some sort of insurance? Did they get sick through their own risky behavior? Did they get hurt by their own actions?

Does being sick warrant violating the Non-Aggression Principle? Does being sick allow you to force others into paying your personal debt? Of course not. That is why it would be important to plan for "rainy days", whether that be by saving, of insurance, loans or charity. All of these options are based in voluntary associations.
What if you suddenly contract a rare illness? Or develop and aggressive cancer simply because of a genetic predisposition? Disease and injury are difficult to predict, and in many cases there are people who've worked hard and saved money who've been hit by an illness and lost it all on medical bills.

"isn't the responsibility to mend oneself their own?"

There are so many medical scenarios where that simply is not possible.

You can't honestly believe that in all instances of illness, it is the responsibility of the sick to take care of themselves and if their illness gets too expensive then it's their fault.

That's horrific, and completely fallacious. It's based on the assumption that, if we all work hard enough and dedicate ourselves, we can all be rich. History has taught us that it is absolutely not the case, especially since, in many cases, the way to make yourself rich is to keep other people poor.

This philosophy you propose is bordering on Social Darwinism.

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Old 01-17-2013, 03:55 PM   #103
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Then that agreement is based on fraud.
Yeah, the lynchpin of getting rich.

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Old 01-17-2013, 03:59 PM   #104
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Yes. And as fraud is one of the easiest ways to make money easily and quickly, there's likely to be a lot of that in a world with no government regulation of business.
Just because there is no Government, doesn't mean that there wouldn't be some sort of Regulation. Look at Ebay or Amazon. Look at how they weed out fraud. Reputation is very important in a Free Society. User reviews, critics, etc would be very important and if fraud occurs, it would easily be stamped out due to ratings.
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You say that market forces would eliminate fraud. It's entirely possible that they could also encourage more people to engage in it. It makes making money quick and easy, and when making money is the goal I don't see why everyone wouldn't do it.
I don't think I said that fraud would be eliminated, I believe I said that it would be much more difficult.
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I think you're underestimating how often it is that the truly cold and ruthless are the ones who rise to power in the world of business and would be the ones making these decisions.
Aren't those same "cold and ruthless" people in Government? Where would these "cold and ruthless" people go? Where they can control the masses with guns or where they need to be humble and ask for people to purchase their goods and services?

In Business, they would only "cold and ruthless" if they know the risk of doing so has little consequences. In today's cronyism infested corporate world, they have legal protections for their bad decisions. They still make their bonuses if they get a bail out. They still collect their salaries if the business is doing bad. They just give campaign donations to those that write the laws and their are good to go. Their buddies in Government then set limits on their competition for them.

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Old 01-17-2013, 04:00 PM   #105
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Yeah, the lynchpin of getting rich.
Buyer beware. Nothing is forces you to accept fraudulent contracts except when it's Government.

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Old 01-17-2013, 04:02 PM   #106
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That's the main flaw in your philosophy, the assumption that market forces would keep corruption and unethical business practices from being profitable. What you fail to consider is, if everyone's getting in on that, then it's the only way to be profitable, and anyone who tries otherwise will inevitably have a more expensive product, which may be enjoyed by some, but not enough to put the bad guys out of business. Their own employees will keep themselves and each other in business, because the only thing a person who's payed basically nothing and treated like **** to keep prices down can afford is their own company's product, or products from other similar companies.

The other issue is, with no government, eventually every corporation will effectively be it's own government, able to purchase private security and military forces for themselves, accountable to no one but themselves with no means for the employees inside of it to change anything without getting a promotion from the people already in power.

Doesn't sound very free to me.

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Old 01-17-2013, 04:05 PM   #107
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What if you suddenly contract a rare illness? Or develop and aggressive cancer simply because of a genetic predisposition? Disease and injury are difficult to predict, and in many cases there are people who've worked hard and saved money who've been hit by an illness and lost it all on medical bills.

"isn't the responsibility to mend oneself their own?"

There are so many medical scenarios where that simply is not possible.

You can't honestly believe that in all instances of illness, it is the responsibility of the sick to take care of themselves and if their illness gets too expensive then it's their fault.

That's horrific, and completely fallacious. It's based on the assumption that, if we all work hard enough and dedicate ourselves, we can all be rich. History has taught us that it is absolutely not the case, especially since, in many cases, the way to make yourself rich is to keep other people poor.

This philosophy you propose is bordering on Social Darwinism.
No, not at all.

I did say that Charity would and could solve this, among the rest of the list.

Can you think of one scenario where someone with a horrible disease wouldn't rely on force and coercion for payment of their medical bills?

Donations, whether money or time would go a long way. Prevention instead of cure, would also go a long way.

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Old 01-17-2013, 04:12 PM   #108
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That's the main flaw in your philosophy, the assumption that market forces would keep corruption and unethical business practices from being profitable. What you fail to consider is, if everyone's getting in on that, then it's the only way to be profitable, and anyone who tries otherwise will inevitably have a more expensive product, which may be enjoyed by some, but not enough to put the bad guys out of business. Their own employees will keep themselves and each other in business, because the only thing a person who's payed basically nothing and treated like **** to keep prices down can afford is their own company's product, or products from other similar companies.

The other issue is, with no government, eventually every corporation will effectively be it's own government, able to purchase private security and military forces for themselves, accountable to no one but themselves with no means for the employees inside of it to change anything without getting a promotion from the people already in power.

Doesn't sound very free to me.
People don't live in a vacuum. If they "built up" their military forces, how do you think the market would deal with that? Shareholders would withdraw their capital because of the risk. Insurance rates would go up because of the risk. Competition would advertise that (let's say), Apple has it's own paramilitary organization, what do you think that would mean for Apple's stock? It would plummet.

Look at what happened to Apple's stock when just rumors of iPhone 5 screen orders were reduced by a few million. It dropped pretty hard. No one would invest in a company if they don't think they would receive returns on that investment and that, in and of itself, reduces the risk of "private military" and so forth.

And, along those lines, why would it be considered bad if a companies had their own "security forces", but right now, Government has sole monopoly on the use of force?

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Old 01-17-2013, 04:14 PM   #109
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That's the main flaw in your philosophy, the assumption that market forces would keep corruption and unethical business practices from being profitable. What you fail to consider is, if everyone's getting in on that, then it's the only way to be profitable, and anyone who tries otherwise will inevitably have a more expensive product, which may be enjoyed by some, but not enough to put the bad guys out of business. Their own employees will keep themselves and each other in business, because the only thing a person who's payed basically nothing and treated like **** to keep prices down can afford is their own company's product, or products from other similar companies.

The other issue is, with no government, eventually every corporation will effectively be it's own government, able to purchase private security and military forces for themselves, accountable to no one but themselves with no means for the employees inside of it to change anything without getting a promotion from the people already in power.

Doesn't sound very free to me.
Also a lot of products are damaging, but not as far as a corporation is concerned.

Cigarettes for example. Get people hooked, and then they physically can't stop buying.

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Old 01-17-2013, 04:16 PM   #110
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And, along those lines, why would it be considered bad if a companies had their own "security forces", but right now, Government has sole monopoly on the use of force?
Some companies do have their own security forces.

You ever hear of Black Water?

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Old 01-17-2013, 04:17 PM   #111
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Some companies do have their own security forces.

You ever hear of Black Water?
Who pays Black Water and why?

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Old 01-17-2013, 04:19 PM   #112
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Also a lot of products are damaging, but not as far as a corporation is concerned.

Cigarettes for example. Get people hooked, and then they physically can't stop buying.
I physically stopped buying cigarettes. But again, who funded a lot of campaigns with their profits? Cigarette Manufacturers.

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Old 01-17-2013, 04:25 PM   #113
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I physically stopped buying cigarettes. But again, who funded a lot of campaigns with their profits? Cigarette Manufacturers.
Why do you keep bringing in all these non-sequitors?

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Old 01-17-2013, 04:28 PM   #114
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Yes. And as fraud is one of the easiest ways to make money easily and quickly, there's likely to be a lot of that in a world with no government regulation of business.

You say that market forces would eliminate fraud. It's entirely possible that they could also encourage more people to engage in it. It makes making money quick and easy, and when making money is the goal I don't see why everyone wouldn't do it.

I think you're underestimating how often it is that the truly cold and ruthless are the ones who rise to power in the world of business and would be the ones making these decisions.
I think it also underestimates how lazy people are, and how easily companies cover for things like this.

Most CEOs don't necessarily work hard, but the benefit from high profile positions, and being able to pass on those positions to those they choose.

Very few employees will even challenge a boss who does no work. They'll simply end up bearing the burden of him not doing his job.

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Old 01-17-2013, 04:29 PM   #115
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Why do you keep bringing in all these non-sequitors?
What are you talking about. You said that people "can't" stop buying cigarettes. I said I did.

Then, I asked who funded a lot of campaigns, then I said Cigarette Manufacturers. Whuppty do.

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Old 01-17-2013, 04:30 PM   #116
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What are you talking about. You said that people "can't" stop buying cigarettes. I said I did.

Then, I asked who funded a lot of campaigns, then I said Cigarette Manufacturers. Whuppty do.
I didn't ask whether you did. Good for you, fun story. Some people can't it seems.

The second part doesn't have anything to do with anything either.

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Old 01-17-2013, 04:32 PM   #117
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I think it also underestimates how lazy people are, and how easily companies cover for things like this.

Most CEOs don't necessarily work hard, but the benefit from high profile positions, and being able to pass on those positions to those they choose.

Very few employees will even challenge a boss who does no work. They'll simply end up bearing the burden of him not doing his job.
People are often lazy because they believe false answers are real answers. Most of the time because they were indoctrinated into believing so. "Why should I solve this issue if the Government will do it for me?"

"Why shouldn't I fight in this religious war, if my reward is heaven"

Much of human sorrow is borne from believing is false truths.

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Old 01-17-2013, 04:36 PM   #118
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I didn't ask whether you did. Good for you, fun story. Some people can't it seems.

The second part doesn't have anything to do with anything either.
People can quit, it's just easier not to. Just like people can philosophically evolve past Government as a solution, it's just easier not to.

The reason I brought up the Campaign donations is because Government had an incentive to allow people to be hooked on cigarettes because of the dollars it would bring them. Again, in a true free market, their would be private organizations that would rate whether such things were addictive and the choice would be made by the consume whether they wanted to take that risk or not. But through a Government "solution", truth would be hidden through legal means.

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Old 01-17-2013, 04:39 PM   #119
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People can quit, it's just easier not to. Just like people can philosophically evolve past Government as a solution, it's just easier not to.
If you're offering such a hard solution riddled with obstacles then it doesn't seem to advantageous for me to take it now does it?

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Old 01-17-2013, 04:41 PM   #120
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If you're offering such a hard solution riddled with obstacles then it doesn't seem to advantageous for me to take it now does it?
"But if we free the slaves, who will pick the cotton?"

If I had all of the answers, then I should be dictator of the world, right? The answer is that no one, or no group of people, can have all of the answers. But Trillions of small decisions can lead to real answers.

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Old 01-17-2013, 04:42 PM   #121
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"But if we free the slaves, who will pick the cotton?"
Remind me again who stepped in and made them change their minds?

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If I had all of the answers, then I should be dictator of the world, right? The answer is that no one, or no group of people, can have all of the answers. But Trillions of small decisions can lead to real answers.
That's a great platitude, how about something with substance. All you do is repeat mantras.

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Old 01-17-2013, 04:47 PM   #122
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Remind me again who stepped in and made them change their minds?


That's a great platitude, how about something with substance. All you do is repeat mantras.
Slavery didn't end because of Government. It ended because person-hood was extended to Blacks. The Concept of Slavery became disgusting. The Idea of enslaving human beings become a blight on the landscape. It is because people philosophically outgrow that mental immaturity.

If this is such a burden on you, why do you feel compelled to continue this discussion?

I never claimed to have all of the answers.

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Old 01-17-2013, 05:03 PM   #123
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Slavery didn't end because of Government. It ended because person-hood was extended to Blacks. The Concept of Slavery became disgusting. The Idea of enslaving human beings become a blight on the landscape. It is because people philosophically outgrow that mental immaturity.

If this is such a burden on you, why do you feel compelled to continue this discussion?

I never claimed to have all of the answers.
You didn't just suggest the mentality of racism was outgrown?

First of all, personhood was assigned to blacks all the way back in the Constitution described them as "peoples" in the 3/5 compromise, which is no accident. Legal studies is all about the definition of words basically. Since rights extended to "the people" referring to black people as "people" opened a huge legal can of worms, and they kicked that can down the road until Lincoln came along who was a huge supporter of abolition.

The idea of enslaving people didn't become a "blight along the landscape". Abolitionists were in no way the norm, and slavery was pretty well supported in the North as well. It was the free market that lead them to practice slavery in the first place. Cheap labor. That was the primary motivation. It would've stayed that way if the Government hadn't intervened.

Also segregation existed in the South because people wished to continue that practice and found a legal loophole to still subjugate the society.


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Old 01-17-2013, 08:22 PM   #124
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You didn't just suggest the mentality of racism was outgrown?
Yeah, that is exactly what I said. /s

I said "human ownership" has been outgrown. "Personhood" was extended to black people in this culture. It started because people recognized the violation of the Non-Aggression Principle that slavery was.

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Old 01-17-2013, 08:30 PM   #125
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Yeah, that is exactly what I said. /s

I said "human ownership" has been outgrown. "Personhood" was extended to black people in this culture. It started because people recognized the violation of the Non-Aggression Principle that slavery was.
Of course you realize all countries, everywhere, still engage in this practice, as do many, many, many companies and corporations.

"Personhood" is a legal term. That's something extended by the Government that had not been previously, even though it was deviously entered into the legal language of the Supreme Law of the Land.

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