The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread

[Mr. Dent]

Iron Man 3 was a good film. Literally, the only legitimate complaint I ever see people use for why it's so bad is the Mandarin twist, which was brilliant as a film technique.

[Ragnaroknroll]

How Fox handled Galactus was an abortion - don't sugar coat it. Fox didn't show him because they didn't have the balls to do it. Done right it would've blown people away. And where did playing it safe get them? A 37 Rotten Tomatoes score and legions of disgruntled fans. Meanwhile a guy in a metal suit, viking gods from space, the star spangled man, and the jolly green giant got people to the theater in droves.

And since when does the Silver Surfer take down the one who gave him his power? Where was the Watcher? And what did Reed Richards and the FF actually do to save the day? They did stop that ferris wheel though. That was cool I guess.

To compare the Mandarin (a racist caricature among some of Iron's Man's very weak gallery of rogues) to Galactus (Jack Kirby's cosmic masterpiece) and Dr. Doom (the inspiration of Darth Vader himself) is ludicrous. I never knew there were so many die hard Mandarin fans out there. There's a vocal minority out there that seem to hate Iron Man 3. Personally I was not a fan of the twist because I read comics and want to see Fin Fang Foom but I can't argue that it was a good film and most people love it. BO receipts, critic scores and audience scores say so.

Interestingly, out of curiosity I crunched some numbers: the average box office receipts and RT scores of every Fox CBM and every Marvel Studios CBM.

Marvel Studios

Average RT score: 80
Average BO: $716,653,131

Fox

Average RT score: 54
Average BO: $310,378,639

So I think the question we should be asking is how many people here work for Fox?

[Whiskey Tango]

[fangz]

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

Iron Man 3 was a good film. Literally, the only legitimate complaint I ever see people use for why it's so bad is the Mandarin twist, which was brilliant as a film technique.

i didn't like IM3 overall, but i did like the Mandarin thing. I liked how it was revealed, the abruptness and absurdity of the whole thing.
Ben Kingsley was great. But everything after that scene was a mess to me.
a big silly mess. running around, 'now we have to go here, now we have to go here, now we have to catch them here..', shooting, punching, running, exploding, quipping, fake epic showdowns, just ridiculousness.
all the armors coming really annoyed me. pretty much everything after the Mandarin twist was annoying in one way or another to me. and I think a big part of it was that the first two thirds of the movie set up something really amazing.
That if it had bothered to play itself out consistently, would've made it the best of the three movies.
the whole thing was being set up as a great noir detective kind of flick almost. this shadowy enemy, hints at terrifying weirdness and wickedness. a great mystery was set up. and Tony being out on his own like that, without his stuff, i thought that was really great to see.
and then the Mandarin twist should've been this turning point, diving into the heart of the mystery. there's always a part like that in those noir detective films when the protagonist first becomes aware of the depth of the situation. and then down the rabbit hole.
so a change in tone was definitely necessary there, but the way they chose to go with it is when they lost me. everything just turned into a big dumb action movie. it felt like they chickened out and wanted to make sure everyone got their fill of explosions and buddy cop type hack bickery feel good junk, and suits of armor and thinking they'd won but no..more explosions.
and the ending was just this fakey full circling lesson learned kind of thing that wasn't really connected to the rest of the movie in an honest way. the basic impulse that Tony had to re-evaluate his priorities in life makes sense cuz Pepper almost died.
But all the I am Iron Man talk, and the heart surgery and all the tone of everything going on was just obviously trying to act like some kind of completed arc with the first one, and it just really wasn't at all and it felt like every other dumb action movie that tries to mean something big at the end.
Marvel never seriously examined what Iron Man is in relation to Tony Stark, cuz they never seemed to want to examine Stark in any serious way at all. So they can't just pull all this I am Iron Man junk all of a sudden and expect it to mean a thing.
RDJ has been a great version of Tony Stark, but he's nothing like how I really imagine Stark in the comics, and that is a pretty heavy guy. Stark's an interesting character and they tried to just pull something out of him at the last minute when the depth of Tony Stark in MCU has always been limited to cheesy, overacted quirks and eccentricities. like Monk level type of screwball neurosis and stuff.
I understand why Marvel chose to not look that far into Stark, and it was a good decision, but that's why I felt the ending was so weak.
This doesn't mean that I wouldn't trust Marvel more with FF, in general, than Fox....but I'm just saying there's reasons to dislike Iron Man 3 besides the Mandarin twist.
it was a good movie, but it was flawed and I think consciously copped out in the third act to play down to summer blockbuster expectations. maybe it would've made a few hundred millioin dollars less, haha, but it would've been a way better film if it was honest with itself from the Mandarin Twist on.

[Mr. Dent]

running around, 'now we have to go here, now we have to go here, now we have to catch them here..', shooting, punching, running, exploding, quipping, fake epic showdowns, just ridiculousness.

This just sounds like an awesome action flick to me.

The movie was definitely flawed like you said and I agree with a lot of the points you made but it wasn't a horrible mess that a lot of people claim it to be just because they didn't like the changes from the comics, which is my point. So I don't think we disagree.

[Green Goblin]

Originally Posted by Saitou Hajime

83 vs 72. And gaps that big don't tend to change that much over time.

User score is for IM3 is 80%

[Green Goblin]

IM3 being overrated only fuels my hatred

[Saitou Hajime]

Originally Posted by RedBlueWonder

User score is for IM3 is 80%

I was referring to the audience rating on RT. Where'd you get the 80 from?

[Mr. Dent]

Originally Posted by RedBlueWonder

User score is for IM3 is 80%

No, it's not. It's 82% and was 83% a couple days ago. It's not that hard to go and actually check this **** before posting. Do it.

Originally Posted by RedBlueWonder

IM3 being overrated only fuels my hatred

Yes, it's "overrated" because you don't like it. Nice to know you're the most important person in the world.

[Green Goblin]

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

No, it's not. It's 82% and was 83% a couple days ago. It's not that hard to go and actually check this **** before posting. Do it.


Yes, it's "overrated" because you don't like it. Nice to know you're the most important person in the world.

In TDKR general dissusion a user who regularly checks RT stated that the site has got an update on all it's CBM's and IM3 with a few others dropped. This was only a few weeks ago and scores rarely go up apparantly.

[Green Goblin]

This is going to upset alot of people but I'm going to say it because this is the truth in movie business.
ALL studios do not really care about their characters. They are just bussiness men, they are there to maximise the cash. FOX,MARVEL,SONY whatever it doesn't matter who makes them, it's the creative teams and crew that make a film what it is.

[X-Maniac]

Iron Man 3 is at 78% at the time I am posting this.

The scores do go up and down a bit, I've noticed this before.

[Green Goblin]

Originally Posted by X-Maniac

Iron Man 3 is at 78% at the time I am posting this.

The scores do go up and down a bit, I've noticed this before.

still a four star film. With TDKR now considered the weakest I agree with most/everything RT Users say now.

[X-Maniac]

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

This just sounds like an awesome action flick to me.

The movie was definitely flawed like you said and I agree with a lot of the points you made but it wasn't a horrible mess that a lot of people claim it to be just because they didn't like the changes from the comics, which is my point. So I don't think we disagree.

I also disliked IM3. And for many more reasons than the fake Mandarin stuff. Tony Stark was suddenly a nervous wreck who kept referencing Avengers every five seconds, those who went into the Extremis program suddenly turned evil, there were too many empty suits flying around (who needs Avengers when he has that armoured army at his disposal!?.

I was surprised the critics loved it so much, and stunned that it made so much money. In my view, it earned far more than the film merited.

[X-Maniac]

Originally Posted by RedBlueWonder

still a four star film. With TDKR now considered the weakest I agree with most/everything RT Users say now.

Don't follow the crowd, make your own mind up. The scores will be the scores, you don't need to be hypnotised by them. Let the numbers create their own averages from individual thinking not from herd instincts.

[Mr. Dent]

Originally Posted by RedBlueWonder

In TDKR general dissusion a user who regularly checks RT stated that the site has got an update on all it's CBM's and IM3 with a few others dropped. This was only a few weeks ago and scores rarely go up apparantly.

Except if you read it yourself you'll see it's been at 83% (now 82%) for the past 2-3 months.

Originally Posted by RedBlueWonder

This is going to upset alot of people but I'm going to say it because this is the truth in movie business.
ALL studios do not really care about their characters. They are just bussiness men, they are there to maximise the cash. FOX,MARVEL,SONY whatever it doesn't matter who makes them, it's the creative teams and crew that make a film what it is.

Marvel and especially Feige care about their characters. Feige is a long time comic fan and most of the people who work for and with Marvel are (unlike pretty much every other studio). Yes they're looking to make more money but Marvel has shown they care more about making a good film that respects the characters and relying on that and their name to bring in money than compromising and gutting franchises to try and chase money, which never works anyway. If people like Feige and Avi Arad didn't care about the characters then the MCU and Marvel films as a whole would never have become as successful as they are now.

Originally Posted by X-Maniac

Iron Man 3 is at 78% at the time I am posting this.

The scores do go up and down a bit, I've noticed this before.

We're talking about the audience score not the critic score, which is what you're referring to. After the initial two-three weeks the critic score ceases to move because most reviews are accounted for.

[X-Maniac]

Originally Posted by Ragnaroknroll

How Fox handled Galactus was an abortion - don't sugar coat it. Fox didn't show him because they didn't have the balls to do it. Done right it would've blown people away. And where did playing it safe get them? A 37 Rotten Tomatoes score and legions of disgruntled fans. Meanwhile a guy in a metal suit, viking gods from space, the star spangled man, and the jolly green giant got people to the theater in droves.

And since when does the Silver Surfer take down the one who gave him his power? Where was the Watcher? And what did Reed Richards and the FF actually do to save the day? They did stop that ferris wheel though. That was cool I guess.

To compare the Mandarin (a racist caricature among some of Iron's Man's very weak gallery of rogues) to Galactus (Jack Kirby's cosmic masterpiece) and Dr. Doom (the inspiration of Darth Vader himself) is ludicrous. I never knew there were so many die hard Mandarin fans out there. There's a vocal minority out there that seem to hate Iron Man 3. Personally I was not a fan of the twist because I read comics and want to see Fin Fang Foom but I can't argue that it was a good film and most people love it. BO receipts, critic scores and audience scores say so.

Interestingly, out of curiosity I crunched some numbers: the average box office receipts and RT scores of every Fox CBM and every Marvel Studios CBM.

Marvel Studios

Average RT score: 80
Average BO: $716,653,131

Fox

Average RT score: 54
Average BO: $310,378,639

So I think the question we should be asking is how many people here work for Fox?

I don't work for Fox, but I agree they need to step up their game. DoFP has the signs of doing that, judging from what I've seen so far.

But I do think the X-Men movies offer a lot more substance than any of Marvel's offerings. I find more going on in the X-Men movies, more meaning, more to think about.

Marvel has the advantage of releasing individual films (Thor, Cap, etc) that give the feeling of something fresh. With X-Men, every film has X-Men in the title so there could be some audience fatigue. Plus, the studio released a movie called The Last Stand that wasn't really the last of anything (though they probably intended it to be at the time they did it).

All Marvel wants to do is stick Galactus and SS in the Guardians or Avengers franchise, it has no intention of doing another F4 movie. So we won't see any more of F4 if they do go back to Marvel, just like we won't see any more of Blade, Ghost Rider or Daredevil.

You can tell Marvel is starting to run out of steam creatively, or they wouldn't be wanting Galactus or SS back.

[Green Goblin]

Originally Posted by X-Maniac

I also disliked IM3. And for many more reasons than the fake Mandarin stuff. Tony Stark was suddenly a nervous wreck who kept referencing Avengers every five seconds, those who went into the Extremis program suddenly turned evil, there were too many empty suits flying around (who needs Avengers when he has that armoured army at his disposal!?.

I was surprised the critics loved it so much, and stunned that it made so much money. In my view, it earned far more than the film merited.

See, that relates back to studios not caring about the characters. IMO it was forced and did not explore his character really that well, it felt like a way to link it in to the Box-Office success that is The Avengers. I think that was the studio not Black but you can see for obvious reasons why they would want to link it into that film as much as possible.

[X-Maniac]

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

We're talking about the audience score not the critic score, which is what you're referring to. After the initial two-three weeks the critic score ceases to move because most reviews are accounted for.

The critic scores do move a bit, I've noticed that as well. I was trying to do some number crunching of my own recently and I noticed the scores for some of the X-Men movies changed by a point up or down between the time i first looked and the time I next looked.

Scores are never 'locked', they will alter if someone new goes on to RT and gets their reviews added.

[Mr. Dent]

Originally Posted by X-Maniac

But I do think the X-Men movies offer a lot more substance than any of Marvel's offerings. I find more going on in the X-Men movies, more meaning, more to think about.

That's because of the X-Men's subject matter (which is honestly heavy handed and the movies a bit pretentious as a result, but w/e). You'll get that when Marvel makes the Inhumans. Will be interesting to see what all you Fox and X-Men fans have to say after that movie.

Marvel has the advantage of releasing individual films (Thor, Cap, etc) that give the feeling of something fresh. With X-Men, every film has X-Men in the title so there could be some audience fatigue. Plus, the studio released a movie called The Last Stand that wasn't really the last of anything (though they probably intended it to be at the time they did it).

They don't just give the "feeling" of something fresh they're completely different stuff.

All Marvel wants to do is stick Galactus and SS in the Guardians or Avengers franchise, it has no intention of doing another F4 movie. So we won't see any more of F4 if they do go back to Marvel, just like we won't see any more of Blade, Ghost Rider or Daredevil.

You can tell Marvel is starting to run out of steam creatively, or they wouldn't be wanting Galactus or SS back.

You have no way of knowing they wanted Silver Surfer or Galactus or that they wanted to put them in Guardians of the Galaxy other than a baseless rumor that Fox themselves denied.

Marvel is hardly running out of creative steam when they have 5-6 new, unique IPs in the pipeline just right now that still barely scratch the surface of the Marvel universe. What we've seen up until now is barely the tip of the iceberg. Guardians is different from anything that has been done before in a Hollywood blockbuster, and we're just a year away from that.

Your short sightedness on this subject is very apparent.

Originally Posted by X-Maniac

The critic scores do move a bit, I've noticed that as well. I was trying to do some number crunching of my own recently and I noticed the scores for some of the X-Men movies changed by a point up or down between the time i first looked and the time I next looked.

Scores are never 'locked', they will alter if someone new goes on to RT and gets their reviews added.

They barely ever move. There's no point in arguing the difference a point every 6 months or more makes.

[Green Goblin]

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

Marvel and especially Feige care about their characters. Feige is a long time comic fan and most of the people who work for and with Marvel are (unlike pretty much every other studio). Yes they're looking to make more money but Marvel has shown they care more about making a good film that respects the characters and relying on that and their name to bring in money than compromising and gutting franchises to try and chase money, which never works anyway. If people like Feige and Avi Arad didn't care about the characters then the MCU and Marvel films as a whole would never have become as successful as they are now.

Avi Arad does not care at all about the characters. He forced Venom into SM3 simply to milk as much cash as possible.

[Mr. Dent]

No, he wanted the symbiote hinted at and set up in SM3. It was Raimi who decided to go all out with the storyline because of what I assume was butthurt of not wanting to leave an incomplete plotline in his film (which by his own admission he doesn't like) and not liking Venom (again, by his own admission) and wanting to get him out of the way. Arad is not the reason SM3 was bad and you're completely ignoring his work on all the films prior to SM3. If not for Arad you would have no Marvel movies right now.

[Green Goblin]

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

No, he wanted the symbiote hinted at and set up in SM3. It was Raimi who decided to go all out with the storyline because of what I assume was butthurt of not wanting to leave an incomplete plotline in his film (which by his own admission he doesn't like) and not liking Venom (again, by his own admission) and wanting to get him out of the way. Arad is not the reason SM3 was bad and you're completely ignoring his work on all the films prior to SM3. If not for Arad you would have no Marvel movies right now.

Well that's not how the story has been told. Source?

[Mr. Dent]

The link to the actual article is gone but this is all I could find

http://themovieblog.com/2007/avi-ara...n-spiderman-3/

Avi wanted Venom in the film but he never said it had to be a full on storyline. People took the excerpt from this article and took it to mean Avi forced all of that Venom stuff. It was Raimi who made it bigger than it had to be. It's the fault of bother Raimi and Arad, not just one or the other.

And I'm by no means saying Arad is a saint, he actually sounds like kind of a jackass from what I've read, but that doesn't change the fact without him we wouldn't have all these movies. And besides, he's not even at Marvel anymore and Feige is definitely better.

[Green Goblin]

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

The link to the actual article is gone but this is all I could find

http://themovieblog.com/2007/avi-ara...n-spiderman-3/

Avi wanted Venom in the film but he never said it had to be a full on storyline. People took the excerpt from this article and took it to mean Avi forced all of that Venom stuff. It was Raimi who made it bigger than it had to be. It's the fault of bother Raimi and Arad, not just one or the other.

And I'm by no means saying Arad is a saint, he actually sounds like kind of a jackass from what I've read, but that doesn't change the fact without him we wouldn't have all these movies. And besides, he's not even at Marvel anymore and Feige is definitely better.

Interesting. I guess Rami screwed up big time.