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Old 05-03-2013, 02:27 AM   #326
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Default Re: "Flame On!" The Human Torch Thread

Why does a character's 'look' "matching the comics" not matter when it comes to film? Because of the word adaptation and what it actually means... and because it is both completely illogical AND closed-mindely dismissive to insist that characters who were portrayed in comics as being of a certain ethnicity - even though said ethnicity had no bearing on or actual relevance to their characterization - be portrayed on film by individuals who are only of said ethnicity.

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Old 05-03-2013, 02:43 AM   #327
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Alot of the statements i've read have been based more on ignorance than anything else. I think its one thing to say, " I want it just like the comic book. " Again, I don't think that's a strong enough arguement for their not to be a change in this version of the film, but at least its an opinion that doesn't come of as offensive.

I think its another thing to come up with rationales based on fault assumptions, sterotypes, or just plain ignorance. When fanboys do that, that's when they lead people to believe that they're racist , because their explainations sound like excuses and cop outs , which in turn lead people to think they really believe something worse.

In cases like that , I personally don't think they're racist , but they certainly seem to keep digging when the hole they're in is already too deep.

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Old 05-03-2013, 03:38 AM   #328
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Why does a character's 'look' "matching the comics" not matter when it comes to film? Because of the word adaptation and what it actually means...
Well, by that logic, NOTHING about the comics ....story, characterization, visuals.... should matter. How much would it matter if the names were changed to Rick Reed, Bob Grant, and Sally & Jimmy Blaze? How much would it matter if each character had totally different powers than they do in the comics? What if the romance were portrayed as between Ben and Sue instead of Reed and Sue? After all, its an adaptation as you said, so why should the filmmakers be beholden to ANY of it? As I mentioned in my previous post, I don't think that matching the visuals of the comics is the MOST important thing, but I don't see how it has NO importance at all. Yes, a film is an adaptation of the comics, and some elements are always going to be changed in that transition, but still, all elements of the comics(story, characters, powers, and yes, visuals too) have at least SOME importance to take into consideration when making an adaptation.....particularly when its an adaptation of such a visual medium as comic books.



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and because it is both completely illogical AND closed-mindely dismissive to insist that characters who were portrayed in comics as being of a certain ethnicity - even though said ethnicity had no bearing on or actual relevance to their characterization - be portrayed on film by individuals who are only of said ethnicity.
I agree that in the case of the characters we're discussing that their ethnicity has no real relevance to their characterization.....I just feel that their ethnicity(or, more accurately, the visual look that happens to go along with their ethnicity) has at least some relevance since , again, these are visually iconic characters, from the visual medium of comics. Its those characters I want to see faithfully adapted to the screen, in both a visual and characterization sense. Now if it turns out that we get a black Johnny Storm, I will have no real PROBLEM with it(as long as the characterization is portrayed well), but that doesnt mean it's closed-minded for me to have a PREFERENCE for the comic look.

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Old 05-03-2013, 05:05 AM   #329
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Default Re: "Flame On!" The Human Torch Thread

i'm not against a black huan torch, so long as sue is black too. Thier kinship is more important that race.

that being said i'd rather MBJ as Luke Cage

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Old 05-03-2013, 05:52 AM   #330
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Soooo... Barack Obama is the equivalent of an alien with super-strength, speed, and sun-powered beams coming out of his eyes?

Okay. I'm officially done with life in the Hype threads.

LOL! Oh my God.

OH MY GOD!
Superman is the most powerful fictional character, one who you said could not be black in real life. And yet the most powerful man in the real world is Barack Obama, a black man. So don't make it sound like the world couldn't accept a black Superman in real life.

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Old 05-03-2013, 05:54 AM   #331
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That's the point I was making. It can't be done; it was sarcasm. I think the irony was lost on you.
Oh it COULD be done. It just wouldn't make any sense. Your post didn't sound the least bit sarcastic to me. I think you tried to paint it that way after I pointed out how ridiculous your statement sounded.

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Old 05-03-2013, 06:23 AM   #332
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You're confused. Treating two things differently doesn't mean double standard. I buy more tampons for my daughter and more bandaids for my son. That doesn't mean I'm not using one principle: Give my kids what they need - and applying it to both of them equally for different results.

The principle many people apply to superheroes is "Representation." They feel that superheroes should reflect us, and that is why they have similar emotions to us, similar problems, similar jobs. They notice, then, that superheroes don't have similar ethnicities to us. While nearly 40% of people in America are not white. Only 10-20% of superheroes are not white, and the disparity gets even larger when you consider white characters are figured much more prominently and often and respectfully than minority characters. So if I apply the principle of Representation to comics, then changing white characters to blacks supports Representation but changing black characters to white does not.

Now, if you don't believe in representation, that's fine, but it's ignorant to call it a double standard.
It is a double stanbdard when you would gladly suport someone else's favorite character being changed to satisfy someone else (yourself) but would not approve of your favorite character being changed to satisfy them.

I would like to see more 'representation' in hiphop/rap music. I would like to see more representation in the NBA. Unfortunately, every microcosm of life soes not proportionally represent the whole. And to expect them to is beyond ignorant.

One problem with your analogy (actually there are a few) is that your daughter doesn't get tampons at your son's expense. I have no problem with 'representation' per se. But there are two ways to realize representation: change white characters to black characters OR create more black characters. Ithink it is funny how, in order to have a better proportional representation of society, some people would rather they change a bunch of characters' races than to actually be creative and come up with some new ones. It might be easy for you to say 'well, there aren't proportionally enough black comic book characters so the man should change some of the white charatcers black' using your argument for support which simultaneously protects you from having to see your favorite black characters' race changed. But every character is someone's favorite. And appeasing you would come at their expense. To think that they wouldn't/shouldn't mind seeing that is ignorant. To think them being upset about it would have to be for racist reasons is worse.

There's a difference between wanting representation and EXPECTING representation. It sounds like some feel Marvel/Hollywood should feel OBLIGATED to provide them with more black characters and it smacks of entitlement.

Many years ago, white men created the comic book industry. They created characters and wrote their stories. They even created the black characters you read today. NOw people feel entitled to take those established characters and see them changed for no other reason than to satisfy their own sense of 'right' with 'representation'. Sadly what most fail to realize is that historically, black characters are not financially sustainable in comics. I read Luke Cage growing up. I thought the comic was great but unfortunately the mag didn't sell well enough to justify Marvel keeping it in production. And the same has been true with Black Panther many times over.

Again I have no problem with representation. I don't even care if they create enough successful black characters that they are OVER-represented in comics. Just let it be done in a creative way (you know, like all the great characters were) instead of the lazy 'let's-just-change-the-race-of-this-character' manner.

BUt here's an idea (since so many think it is a good way to go): let's throw a bone to those that are REALLY under-represented and have the FF be made up of: A Japanese Reed, MUslim Arab Ben, Latino Johnny (we already had that with Sue) and East Indian Susan. That is a formula for success right there!

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Old 05-03-2013, 07:09 AM   #333
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Thanks BrIntDsgse and Spider-Man for saving me the trouble.

I love the irony ( and inconsistency) of people suggesting somone like Jon Hamm for Bruce Wayne or Superman, or Ryan Gosling for Matt Murdock/ Daredevil or such and such a brunette blueeyed actress for Wonder Woman...based on their looks in the part, yet they conveniently ingoring it here,while throwing around terms like how others a ignorant for having a difference of opinion.

Look in any casting thread, and tell me the people here don't think looks or appearances matter. Ohh but it doesn't matter here because to defend this stupid idea we've decided "talent" is the key factor in casting decisions.

Since talent is all that matters, and looks or appearance don't at all anymore
...why can't Helen Mirren or 5 foot actress play Wonder Woman. If BaiLing auditions for Wonder Woman and kills it, I guess no one here would have any objections.

Having the Storms resemble one another IS a part of their character. Hell I have issue with the color of Daniel Craigs and Amy Adams hair for the parts they're paying ( yes it is a part of their character)

Since appearance no longer matters when casting these roles now in the age of forced diversity and out of control pcness,how about instead of Henry C for Superman, we go with a bald asian.... with his love interest a mexican Larry Lane, while Lex Luthor is portrayed by a redheaded female.

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Old 05-03-2013, 08:04 AM   #334
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you guys had a white johnny storm for 3 movies and evans was phenomenal in the role it is not like you haven't seen a white johnny done justice

no problem with the change

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Old 05-03-2013, 08:16 AM   #335
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you guys had a white johnny storm for 3 movies and evans was phenomenal in the role it is not like you haven't seen a white johnny done justice

no problem with the change
So that's the formula? 3 and out and time for a race change? genius.

Bring on white Nick Fury!

*and btw, for you to say anything regarding the FF was done justice in Corman's or either of Story's films speaks volumes about your knowledge of the property.

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Old 05-03-2013, 08:27 AM   #336
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So that's the formula? 3 and out and time for a race change? genius.

Bring on white Nick Fury!

*and btw, for you to say anything regarding the FF was done justice in Corman's or either of Story's films speaks volumes about your knowledge of the property.
your knowledge is obviously flawed i dont care how bad the films were done johnny storm was done justice by chris evans not even debatable

everyone has said he was the best thing about those movies

put it this way michael b jordan is the best suggestion when it comes to acting chops i have seen on this thread i care more about performance than if we get a white actor with blonde hair

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Old 05-03-2013, 08:36 AM   #337
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your knowledge is obviously flawed i dont care how bad the films were done johnny storm was done justice by chris evans not even debatable

everyone has said he was the best thing about those movies

put it this way michael b jordan is the best suggestion when it comes to acting chops i have seen on this thread i care more about performance than if we get a white actor with blonde hair

Evans wasn't even the right age to play Johnny. And he only played Johnny in two films, not three.

And the fact that you say 'everyone has said' to try and prove your point shows how in touch you are with reality. FAR from 'everyone' has said what you claim.

And I am sure that 'acting chops' is what you care most about...

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Old 05-03-2013, 08:37 AM   #338
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The more I think about this idea the more I dislike it. But as someone said above, if they're going to make a black johnny storm I would prefer they get a black susan storm too. I'm not feeling the whole adopted sibling angle. Go all the way or don't go there at all.

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Old 05-03-2013, 09:04 AM   #339
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Default Re: "Flame On!" The Human Torch Thread

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Thanks BrIntDsgse and Spider-Man for saving me the trouble.

How about instead of Henry C for Superman, we go with a bald asian.... with his love interest a mexican Larry Lane, while Lex Luthor is portrayed by a redheaded female.
That would be a more interesting film than the one being advertised.

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Old 05-03-2013, 09:12 AM   #340
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conan69 lol we already had an asian superman his name is dean cain

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Old 05-03-2013, 09:38 AM   #341
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Cain is like 1/4 asian....but he resembled the iconic image.

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Old 05-03-2013, 09:44 AM   #342
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johnny storm is not iconic tho he is as iconic as nick fury

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Old 05-03-2013, 09:56 AM   #343
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Oh it COULD be done. It just wouldn't make any sense. Your post didn't sound the least bit sarcastic to me. I think you tried to paint it that way after I pointed out how ridiculous your statement sounded.
Ridiculous? This coming from the guy who said a Black Superman (a "fictional" fictional character) could exist because our real-life President is Black.

GTFOH

And yes, you missed the sarcasm in the previous post. Deal with it.

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Old 05-03-2013, 09:59 AM   #344
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Much more so than Fury IMHO.

Ultimates Fury is a much more popular character than the older version.

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Old 05-03-2013, 10:26 AM   #345
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Ridiculous? This coming from the guy who said a Black Superman (a "fictional" fictional character) could exist because our real-life President is Black.

GTFOH

And yes, you missed the sarcasm in the previous post. Deal with it.
Go read my post again. I didn't say a Black Superman could EXIST because the prez is black. Your assertion was that America could not accept the reality of a black figure being as powerful as Superman -'they'd **** a brick, remember? - I said that if they could ACCEPT a black man as president, they could ACCEPT a black Superman in real life.

A direct refutal of your point went straight over your head. Deal with it.

But you keep on coming up with those great 'theories' of yours.

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Old 05-03-2013, 10:27 AM   #346
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Default Re: "Flame On!" The Human Torch Thread

Besides, there is a comic precedent: Morrison made Obama a Superman in Final Crisis.

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Old 05-03-2013, 11:34 AM   #347
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I still don't like this.

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Old 05-03-2013, 12:24 PM   #348
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The more I think about this idea the more I dislike it. But as someone said above, if they're going to make a black johnny storm I would prefer they get a black susan storm too. I'm not feeling the whole adopted sibling angle. Go all the way or don't go there at all.
I don't get this though. There probably wouldn't be much of an angle to it. One line of dialogue would explain it and the movie could move forward. Why does Sue need to be black as well?

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Old 05-03-2013, 01:03 PM   #349
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Probably because he's a good actor, and has worked with him before. Which is good enough for me.
Aside from that, does MBJ have great chemistry with the other actors in contention for Mr. Fantastic, Ben, and Sue? That to me is more important than Trank 'playing favorites.'

If he's going to make a big change like this, Trank needs to make it worthwhile.

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Old 05-03-2013, 01:10 PM   #350
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I'm sorry but i simply just cannot wrap my head around the line of thinking that if Sue was white and Johnny was black, and one or the other was adopted that it would in some way change their relationship as siblings.

That is just patently absurd to me.

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