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Old 01-23-2013, 12:59 PM   #26
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I personally do not understand people obsession with video game characters being like them

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Old 01-23-2013, 01:02 PM   #27
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I personally do not understand people obsession with video game characters being like them
And I some what agree with that. In terms of physicality I don't care what they make the guys look like honestly, or the women. I do care sometimes of the portrayal of their actions and characters especially when they become generic 2D stereotypes. But that's just poor writing most the time.

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Old 01-23-2013, 01:03 PM   #28
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It's not popularity Pat, it's because it's a MUCH bigger problem for women in an industry still dominated by men.

But no, let's worry about the poor fragile male gamers whom the industry is largely aimed towards.
But there is still a problem. Thats the issue. You and people like you act as tho there is nothing to discuss because men happen to be ones these games are aimed at. Thats a pathetically narrow minded way to look at the issue and only does more harm in the long run.

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Old 01-23-2013, 01:04 PM   #29
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Yes, men are represented badly here and there too, but anytime ANYONE points out the imbalance towards the way women are represented, there are always Men who pipe up and say "What about Men? We get it rough too!" That's not the bloody point. Yes, there are cases when it's the same for men, but the fact that so many Men genuinely can't accept the premise that there is gender equality is why there is STILL gender equality.

The core of this problem is attitude and perception and the sad reality is too many men refuse to accept gender inequality, either through ignorance, stubbornness or some weird form of guilt.


I mean, look at this thread... A female gamer has expressed her concern, and already 3 men have come in to contradict it by saying "What about the male characters though?" That right there is the perfect cross section of society.

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But there is still a problem. Thats the issue. You and people like you act as tho there is nothing to discuss because men happen to be ones these games are aimed at. Thats a pathetically narrow minded way to look at the issue and only does more harm in the long run.
I think it's clear who's the narrow minded one here. Your whole attitude shows that you care more about the way men are represented than women, and there is genuine resentment in your post towards anyone with a feminist outlook.

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Old 01-23-2013, 01:05 PM   #30
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I won't deny that this industry is dominated by men, as well as Hollywood. I like to see the turnaround. I loved The Hunger Games, I love that the rumor surrounding the sequel trilogy of Star Wars will have a female as it's lead. I love seeing progress about it. But there is two sides to the coin still and there are problems on both sides of the issue.

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Old 01-23-2013, 01:07 PM   #31
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Yes, men are represented badly here and there too, but anytime ANYONE points out the imbalance towards the way women are represented, there are always Men who pipe up and say "What about Men? We get it rough too!" That's not the bloody point. Yes, there are cases when it's the same for men, but the fact that so many Men genuinely can't accept the premise that there is gender equality is why there is STILL gender equality.

The core of this problem is attitude and perception and the sad reality is too many men refuse to accept gender inequality, either through ignorance, stubbornness or some weird form of guilt.


I mean, look at this thread... A female gamer has expressed her concern, and already 3 men have come in to contradict it by saying "What about the male characters though?" That right there is the perfect cross section of society.
We were not contradicting anything. Just saying that there is stereotypical overblown views of males in video games too. And some may have a problem with that as well.

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Old 01-23-2013, 01:09 PM   #32
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I'm here because I think people say there is not enough ......... just being silly

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Old 01-23-2013, 01:11 PM   #33
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The idea that people talk about womens rights because it's 'popular' is basically just misogynism, not to mention ridiculous. If it was so 'popular', then there wouldn't be an imbalance between the genders at all, would there?

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Old 01-23-2013, 01:12 PM   #34
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I mean, look at this thread... A female gamer has expressed her concern, and already 3 men have come in to contradict it by saying "What about the male characters though?" That right there is the perfect cross section of society.
My whole point is that the industry itself has problems with gender. Its NOT just a female issue. Im getting tired of constantly seeing ONE side of the argument when the issue affects more than just one section of people. You stand up on your soap box screaming that women are getting shafted but you COMPLETELY ignore the whole issue just so you can appear to have the moral high ground.

Im saying men can relate to women and their struggles to find characters that feel like them. How many times do i have to look and Kratos and Marcus Fenix before i start feeling inadequate in the SAME way Godzilla has to look at the women in MK. Its not just a singular problem, but people like you have to stick you neck out and say "deal with it, you the majority, we are focusing on the women right now".

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Old 01-23-2013, 01:13 PM   #35
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Yes there is gender inequality out there and most the time it is towards women, I won't deny that. But what some of the others are simply saying is there is more to some of these things. You are painting it with a black and white brush. There is tons of grey in there whether you like it or not. I'm all for equality, but at times some don't realize there is inequality on the other side as well.

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Old 01-23-2013, 01:14 PM   #36
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My whole point is that the industry itself has problems with gender. Its NOT just a female issue. Im getting tired of constantly seeing ONE side of the argument when the issue affects more than just one section of people. You stand up on your soap box screaming that women are getting shafted but you COMPLETELY ignore the whole issue just so you can appear to have the moral high ground.

Im saying men can relate to women and their struggles to find characters that feel like them. How many times do i have to look and Kratos and Marcus Fenix before i start feeling inadequate in the SAME way Godzilla has to look at the women in MK. Its not just a singular problem, but people like you have to stick you neck out and say "deal with it, you the majority, we are focusing on the women right now".
I personally think all you people should deal with it

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Old 01-23-2013, 01:17 PM   #37
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I think it's clear who's the narrow minded one here. Your whole attitude shows that you care more about the way men are represented than women, and there is genuine resentment in your post towards anyone with a feminist outlook.
Eh you're part of the problem. We've talked about this issue in my gender studies class and there are plenty of people like you who for some reason, refuse to look at the bigger issue. You key in on what you feel is the biggest argument and ignore any others. By discussion both issues that each sex has, you might be able to come to some common soltions, but you refuse to look at it that way. Its soooo much easier for you just to label individuals as misogynistic. Oh and because you seem to have such difficulty in interpreting what i am saying, im not saying men and women and their struggles are equal, im saying women dont have to feel like they are the only ones being treated in an unrealistic and unfair manner. There is a large section of men who can empathize with how women feel when presented with these tropes in media.

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Old 01-23-2013, 01:26 PM   #38
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You stand up on your soap box screaming that women are getting shafted but you COMPLETELY ignore the whole issue just so you can appear to have the moral high ground.
That's where you are full of ****. I'm not Fox News, my opinions are based completely on my experiences in life as well as an education in gender studies. All you've done there is tried to find a way to completely dismiss my argument from even being credible, which is generally what people do when they feel threatened by an opinion.

I'm not completely ignoring the whole issue, you're just grossly underestimating it. Your comparison is garbage. You are not looking at a character like Marcus Fenix in the same way that a female gamer would look at someone like Bayonetta... Because both characters are designed to appeal to Men. It's exactly the same in comics. Men are heroic, in positions of power, in cool costumes... Women have their tits and ass hanging out and usually play second fiddle to the male characters. Now sure there are exceptions here and there to that rule, but by and large, when an industry has been dominated by men for as long as it has, the only way to change that is with attitude.

Characters like Elena from Uncharted or Maddison from Heavy Rain, when characters like that become more and more mainstream, we will see start to see change for the better, but it has to start with the gamers themselves.... The games industry isn't going to change in a big way unless they feel the pressure that they HAVE to change and that's not going to happen unless people start talking about it, complaining about it, getting their voices heard...

And for the record, stating that women would like Kratos because he's muscly or that 'women like sex, look at 50 shades of grey' as an explanation for why they'd like the sex minigame? That is just sexist, plain and simple.

Next time you talk to a girl gamer you know, ask her who her favourite characters are. I bet you're more likely to get Nathan Drake, Ezio or Link than you are to get Marcus Fenix.

And yes, it is still an attitude thing. You might accuse me of soap boxing Pat, but the fact that you seem so dismissive of womens rights in fact, the fact that you seem threatened by it? That only strengthens my convictions.

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Old 01-23-2013, 01:29 PM   #39
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Yes there is gender inequality out there and most the time it is towards women, I won't deny that. But what some of the others are simply saying is there is more to some of these things. You are painting it with a black and white brush. There is tons of grey in there whether you like it or not. I'm all for equality, but at times some don't realize there is inequality on the other side as well.
Of course they do, that's literally what inequality means.

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Eh you're part of the problem. We've talked about this issue in my gender studies class and there are plenty of people like you who for some reason, refuse to look at the bigger issue. You key in on what you feel is the biggest argument and ignore any others. By discussion both issues that each sex has, you might be able to come to some common soltions, but you refuse to look at it that way. Its soooo much easier for you just to label individuals as misogynistic. Oh and because you seem to have such difficulty in interpreting what i am saying, im not saying men and women and their struggles are equal, im saying women dont have to feel like they are the only ones being treated in an unrealistic and unfair manner. There is a large section of men who can empathize with how women feel when presented with these tropes in media.
Sure, but until it's the majority, then I think gender equality is something worth championing. You disagree? Sue me.

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Old 01-23-2013, 01:34 PM   #40
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That's where you are full of ****. I'm not Fox News, my opinions are based completely on my experiences in life as well as an education in gender studies. All you've done there is tried to find a way to completely dismiss my argument from even being credible, which is generally what people do when they feel threatened by an opinion.

I'm not completely ignoring the whole issue, you're just grossly underestimating it. Your comparison is garbage. You are not looking at a character like Marcus Fenix in the same way that a female gamer would look at someone like Bayonetta... Because both characters are designed to appeal to Men. It's exactly the same in comics. Men are heroic, in positions of power, in cool costumes... Women have their tits and ass hanging out and usually play second fiddle to the male characters. Now sure there are exceptions here and there to that rule, but by and large, when an industry has been dominated by men for as long as it has, the only way to change that is with attitude.

Characters like Elena from Uncharted or Maddison from Heavy Rain, when characters like that become more and more mainstream, we will see start to see change for the better, but it has to start with the gamers themselves.... The games industry isn't going to change in a big way unless they feel the pressure that they HAVE to change and that's not going to happen unless people start talking about it, complaining about it, getting their voices heard...

And for the record, stating that women would like Kratos because he's muscly or that 'women like sex, look at 50 shades of grey' as an explanation for why they'd like the sex minigame? That is just sexist, plain and simple.

Next time you talk to a girl gamer you know, ask her who her favourite characters are. I bet you're more likely to get Nathan Drake, Ezio or Link than you are to get Marcus Fenix.

And yes, it is still an attitude thing. You might accuse me of soap boxing Pat, but the fact that you seem so dismissive of womens rights in fact, the fact that you seem threatened by it? That only strengthens my convictions.

I wont bother falling into your bs trap. To state that you arent ignoring the issue is a joke. You are cherry picking one part of it because it happens to carry more weight. You see this ALL the time when the issue of gender is brought up.

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Old 01-23-2013, 01:35 PM   #41
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And for the record, stating that women would like Kratos because he's muscly or that 'women like sex, look at 50 shades of grey' as an explanation for why they'd like the sex minigame? That is just sexist, plain and simple.
I think you missed my point. Does the sex like that appeal to women (maybe sometimes because again stop painting things in black and white)? Probably not. However, my point is that Hollywood/books give stereotypical and create men as their sexual desires both physically and by action. 50 Shades of Grey shows that women like sex as well, they like to fantasize about it, and they like to read about that. How is that sexist? Going outside of the video game realm, women like sex too. You act as if it's something exclusive to men only. To me again you are painting things black and white. So please do not ever say that I am sexist, because I'm furthest from that. I actually admire a lot more women in my life then men.

My father died when I was only 8 I was raised by my mother alone. She is the greatest human being I've ever encountered and stronger then anyone else out there in more ways then one. You are acting like people like me are saying nay to women rights and their problems. There are millions of problems with inequality or the treatment of women. But there are a lot with men as well, and if you say no to that then it's just pure ignorance. I fight for equality of all, not just one side or the other. You don't create equality by dismissing and downplaying the ones that have the advantage and just switching the roles. Equality is just that both sides have equal say and problems they can bring up.

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Old 01-23-2013, 01:36 PM   #42
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http://www.1reasonwhy.net/

Whatever. I'm not a campaigner and I can't stop people from believing the ****ed up things they believe. That website will say more than I can on the subject anyway.

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Old 01-23-2013, 01:38 PM   #43
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Sure, but until it's the majority, then I think gender equality is something worth championing. You disagree? Sue me.
Thats why your POV is so slanted. It doesnt matter if its a majority or minority. The issue itself should be discussed. You REFUSE to analyze both sides. There is common ground that both parties can find yet you just dont want to have that discussion. You feel you look better as the "champion of gender inequality".

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Old 01-23-2013, 01:45 PM   #44
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My father died when I was only 8 I was raised by my mother alone. She is the greatest human being I've ever encountered and stronger then anyone else out there in more ways then one. You are acting like people like me are saying nay to women rights and their problems. There are millions of problems with inequality or the treatment of women. But there are a lot with men as well, and if you say no to that then it's just pure ignorance. I fight for equality of all, not just one side or the other. You don't create equality by dismissing and downplaying the ones that have the advantage and just switching the roles. Equality is just that both sides have equal say and problems they can bring up.
I respect that, but it's a cop out to just blame the media or 'society'. These issues only change because of individual people who speak out and help change attitudes.

Also, I'm not dismissing the 'other side of the coin' at all, but when there's inequality that massively swings in the favour of one gender, obviously people who care about equality are going to look at the gaping hole and figure out how to fix that.

Now bear in mind, I haven't come out and said anything particularly extreme. I'm not calling all men 'women haters' or blaming 'all men' or dismissing all men as sexist, I'm merely stating that there is still a large gap on inequality and it swings in the favour of men, in the business world, in the media, in social rights... Yet I'm soap boxing or dismissing 'the other side' for pointing that out?

Also, I don't think many of you in here can ACTUALLY accept the premise that women have it worse off than men in this instance... If you did, I don't know why it would be any sweat off your back to just say "You're right, women ARE represented more terribly than men". But you guys pretty much instantly started with the "Welllll, it's not JUST women" which is typical in the defensiveness of most sexism denying men, that is i'm not calling you sexist, just complacent to something that is actually an important issue.

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Old 01-23-2013, 01:47 PM   #45
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as the most minority in Video Games You think too dam much just enjoy the games

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Old 01-23-2013, 01:50 PM   #46
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Thats why your POV is so slanted. It doesnt matter if its a majority or minority. The issue itself should be discussed. You REFUSE to analyze both sides. There is common ground that both parties can find yet you just dont want to have that discussion. You feel you look better as the "champion of gender inequality".
Of course it matters whether there's a majority in one side, because with a gender gap that large, it's never going to be as simple as 'finding common ground', especially when so many people still refuse to accept gender inequality exists. The majority problem is men's (and womens) attitudes towards women. The minority problem is mens and womens attitude towards Men. Seriously, the difference in scope between those two issues is astronomical, yet it's silly to focus on just one, even if that 'one' is a gaping wound in society whereas the other one is barely a scratch?

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Old 01-23-2013, 01:54 PM   #47
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But you guys pretty much instantly started with the "Welllll, it's not JUST women" which is typical in the defensiveness of most sexism denying men, that is i'm not calling you sexist, just complacent to something that is actually an important issue.


No, thats what you wanted to hear because its a much easier argument for you to make, all you have to do is label someone a sexist and walk away as they try and prove otherwise. My core point that kicked off this entire back and forth boils down to the fact that women dont have to feel like they are the only ones being force fed inaccurate sterotypes and that there are legit discussions to be had that benefits not just women but men as well. Period. I completely agree that women have it worse than men, but not so much that it warrants complete silence from the male perspective. A stance it seems you have chosen.

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Old 01-23-2013, 02:05 PM   #48
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I don't think that at all, I think it needs the opposITE, which is what I've SAID all along. There need to be more MEN talking out LOUD about gender equality, because at the moment, anytime a woman says something on the subject, she gets dismissed as a 'Left Wing Femmo".

It's mainly men who need the attitude change and the best way for that to happen is if they hear these ideas being publicly floated by other men. And of course it benefits both, Gender EQUALITY... Equal for BOTH genders...

And you can accuse me of soap boxing and be ENTIRELY dismissive of me if you want, but the fact remains, in your first post, you dismissed womens rights as being popular because it makes better headlines. That undermines most of what you've said. Also, I'd made two points, fairly simplistic, before you accused ME of just taking a 'popularist' argument. So I still stand by my sentiment, that it's viewpoints like yours that BLOCK a lot of those dialogues about gender that we desperately need.

Ugh... I'm tired and it's late and I'm going to bed. I'm sure this thread will be here when I wake up :P

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Old 01-23-2013, 02:26 PM   #49
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Man, I'm so confused about this gender equality stuff. It's not that I don't understand it, but more that I'm of two minds about it.

I know in my heart that I believe in and support gender equality as an ideal 100%, but when the rubber meets the road out in the real world, or on the Internet, I find that the more....vocal supporters more often than not feel like nails on a chalkboard to me.

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Old 01-23-2013, 02:28 PM   #50
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Sorry I have been meaning to trim my nails...

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