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Old 01-23-2013, 02:28 PM   #51
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Default Re: A problem I'm having as a Girl Gamer...

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Originally Posted by Wolvieboy17 View Post

And you can accuse me of soap boxing and be ENTIRELY dismissive of me if you want, but the fact remains, in your first post, you dismissed womens rights as being popular because it makes better headlines. That undermines most of what you've said. Also, I'd made two points, fairly simplistic, before you accused ME of just taking a 'popularist' argument. So I still stand by my sentiment, that it's viewpoints like yours that BLOCK a lot of those dialogues about gender that we desperately need.
You misunderstood what i wrote. Im not dismissing womens rights at all. Im saying an argument will be looked at and analyzed more if it deals with the portrayal of women's rights compared to men in an overwhelming fashion, possibly even detrimentally so. Had i of made this exact same thread, you or someone like you would of been the first to pop in and say, 'yea well, women have it a LOT worse'. This isnt exclusive to you, there are a lot of people who refuse to look at mens struggles because they are in the minority(rightfully so), but in doing so you are glossing over a bigger issue. Both issues are very similar, we dont have to do one at a time.

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Old 01-23-2013, 02:42 PM   #52
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Default Re: A problem I'm having as a Girl Gamer...

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Characters like Elena from Uncharted or Maddison from Heavy Rain.
I agree with a lot of the points you are making but I wouldn't say Madison is a good example of a female character. The very first scene allows the player to undress her and has her trying to escape two intruders in her home while in her undies. She's very rarely in a situation that her sexuality isn't a focal point.

Now as for the larger points being made, nobody is saying characters shouldn't be attractive or not conform to some standards of beauty but female characters are routinely objectified way beyond just being attractive.

I mean you just don't see Marcus or Nathan Drake ever shown in this light:




Uncharted to use Wolvieboy's example is a pretty good example of female characters who manage to be attractive or sexy without objectifying them. I'd say Ellie in Dead Space 2 is another good example.

For example I think something like this is totally fine:



Half the reason the Female Commander Shepard became so popular with lady gamers was how much she eschews traditional female gaming tropes.

Relatedly to Godzilla's original point, I was talking about God of War not 5 minutes ago with somebody else and how disturbing I found the part where the game introduces a naked lady and then tells you to viciously murder her by shoving her in some gears. I had to wonder if the game wanted me to leer at her as I was marching her off to her death. So yeah that bothered me. I expect that series to be filled with violence and sex but in a case like that it feels like it goes way beyond what is necessary.

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Old 01-23-2013, 02:45 PM   #53
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Default Re: A problem I'm having as a Girl Gamer...

Lollipop Chainsaw is a fun and funny game. Haters be damned. That's why I play games though... To have fun. Not to subconsciously be "part" of the game. The only game that I would say came close to capturing my moral standings would be the Mass Effect series...only because the choices I made really felt like choices I'd make.

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Old 01-23-2013, 02:55 PM   #54
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Default Re: A problem I'm having as a Girl Gamer...

To be fair, how many guys walk around half-naked in these games?

But, yeah it's definitely because gamers were perceived to be, until recently almost exclusively male. The people who make them are also mostly male.

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Old 01-23-2013, 02:56 PM   #55
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Default Re: A problem I'm having as a Girl Gamer...

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Lollipop Chainsaw is a fun and funny game. Haters be damned. That's why I play games though... To have fun.
That's not the point, I'm not arguing the game is or isn't good but the point is that Male leads exhibition of "attractiveness" (I really doubt any woman would really find Marcus a good looker but I digress) is routinely handled differently than that of female characters.

I mean I absolutely LOVE this game but



is pretty embarrassing.

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Old 01-23-2013, 03:04 PM   #56
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Default Re: A problem I'm having as a Girl Gamer...

So what would female gamers consider a good female character?

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Old 01-23-2013, 03:05 PM   #57
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Default Re: A problem I'm having as a Girl Gamer...

Lol, yes, the Miranda butt-shots in Mass Effect are, quite frankly, preposterous. Always irritated the crap outta me.

Interesting issue, this. Not really much we can do about it though?

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Old 01-23-2013, 03:24 PM   #58
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Default Re: A problem I'm having as a Girl Gamer...

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That's not the point, I'm not arguing the game is or isn't good but the point is that Male leads exhibition of "attractiveness" (I really doubt any woman would really find Marcus a good looker but I digress) is routinely handled differently than that of female characters.

I mean I absolutely LOVE this game but



is pretty embarrassing.
I'm not embarrassed by that at all. I find it weird that some dudes (and I'm sure some females as well) would be turned on by such a thing. But embarrassed? Hardly.

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Old 01-23-2013, 03:29 PM   #59
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Default Re: A problem I'm having as a Girl Gamer...

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I'm not embarrassed by that at all. I find it weird that some dudes (and I'm sure some females as well) would be turned on by such a thing. But embarrassed? Hardly.
Finding asses attractive is a characteristic most apes share, apparently. Even monkeys.

So, you may be in the minority on that one.

Unless you mean finding a computer generated ass attractive... No sure how chimps would react to that. Be an interesting study for primatologists.

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Old 01-23-2013, 03:35 PM   #60
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Default Re: A problem I'm having as a Girl Gamer...

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To be fair, how many guys walk around half-naked in these games?
Well... there's this guy.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

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Old 01-23-2013, 03:43 PM   #61
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Default Re: A problem I'm having as a Girl Gamer...

Yes, Pat is right that there are issues on both sides of the spectrum, but the issue is definitely skewed more on the women's side. The issue is more apparent when you realize very few men have problems with the way male characters are stereotyped into badasses but women have many issues with the same thing done to women. Men want to be huge jacked badasses, women don't want to be (or have the only female presence in a game be) skankily clad bimbos. It's a very fair point, and Wolvie is right that to try to bring back the argument that there are issues on both sides is hardly the point of this thread and pretty selfish. I'd argue that Heavy Rain is a great example of appealing to both sexes while playing on stereotypes. Each character is fully realized as a character first and foremost. I never even remembered the part where she runs around her house nearly naked, but i definitely remembered the disturbing scene with the doctor, and Ethan's emotional struggles.

Games do need to grow up and move away from the comic book like simplification of gender roles and move more towards films' emotionally built characters, and luckily there has been a pretty steady climb in that direction. But there will always be those lower-common denominator games that do exploit those stereotypes, and there will always be gamers who enjoy that. Which is fine - women will just avoid those games like they usually do comic book movies, and hopefully more companies will realize there is more market share in making more universally human experiences. I'm certainly more interested in those games as well.

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Old 01-23-2013, 04:08 PM   #62
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Default Re: A problem I'm having as a Girl Gamer...

In any discussion about gender and gaming, one argument that I find is usually missing is the actual *types* of games men play as opposed to women. Men tend to prefer action games --- shooters, fighters, action adventures. The gaming equivalent of action movies. Women tend to prefer Zynga type games --- social games, puzzles, mysteries, platformers, RPGs, problem solvers. Yes, there *are* women gamers who like the action games, too, but they're in the vast minority.

I don't think that *excuses* all the objectification of women in action gaming, or action movies, or comic books, or any other "man-cave" forms of entertainment, but it *is* inevitable, and I think women need to be prepared for it if they venture into fandom for those areas.

And I think the notion that gaming is filled with all these scantily clad women is an overexaggeration, anyway. Guys tend not to like playing games with female leads regardless of how sexy/unsexy they are. Sorry, but games like Lollipop Chainsaw and Dead or Alive: Beach Volleyball and Bayonetta always wind up in the bargain bin, while asexual shooters like Call of Duty and Halo and Metal Gear Solid continue to dominate the sales charts. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Tomb Raider winds up there, too.

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Old 01-23-2013, 04:31 PM   #63
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Default Re: A problem I'm having as a Girl Gamer...

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I'd argue that Heavy Rain is a great example of appealing to both sexes while playing on stereotypes. Each character is fully realized as a character first and foremost. I never even remembered the part where she runs around her house nearly naked, but i definitely remembered the disturbing scene with the doctor, and Ethan's emotional struggles.

Not to harp on Heavy Rain but almost all of Madison's scenes have to do with either stripping down to her underwear or to the nude, healing Ethan/having sex with him, avoiding people who wish to do her sexual harm and finally becoming a "spouse" and new "mom" in the best ending.

She's really the weakest character out of the playable set offered.

In any case, Godzilla's original point was

Quote:
I as a female gamer want a reason to relate to the main characters of these games without feeling like I'm being slapped because I am female.
Which I think is a very valid position. Its easy to say oh I don't feel that way when more often than not male gamers have characters that do reflect them on some level in abundance, but when you are on the other end of it is something that I have to imagine is very noticeable.

I used to be somewhat on the other side of this debate long ago until somebody simply explained that it can be difficult when you realize that nearly none of your heroes look like you, and I think that's a very normal and human thing to want, to find some affirmation of the values or attributes that they believe inherent to them rather than the stock set of stereotypes that we so often see trotted out.

So yes I am definitely in favor of stronger, more rounded and more frequent portrays of female characters in gaming.

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Old 01-23-2013, 04:39 PM   #64
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Default Re: A problem I'm having as a Girl Gamer...

Hey, that new Tomb Raider looks rad.

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Old 01-23-2013, 04:40 PM   #65
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Default Re: A problem I'm having as a Girl Gamer...

I do actually think the new Tomb Raider looks pretty good as well. It will probably be the first Tomb Raider game I actually end up playing.

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Old 01-23-2013, 05:09 PM   #66
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I do actually think the new Tomb Raider looks pretty good as well. It will probably be the first Tomb Raider game I actually end up playing.
Same. Never cared about the franchise 'till this game. But it's gotten delayed a lot, hasn't it?

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Old 01-23-2013, 05:45 PM   #67
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Default Re: A problem I'm having as a Girl Gamer...

So what is it you guys- er, gals (and some guys) want exactly?

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Old 01-23-2013, 06:11 PM   #68
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Default Re: A problem I'm having as a Girl Gamer...

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So what is it you guys- er, gals (and some guys) want exactly?
What some of us are hoping that video games , in regards of characterizations, would rise above the typical stereotypes.Especially when it comes to portraying female characters.

And one other thing, to bring the argument that males also suffer from the same kind of stereotypes characterization in videogames, when discussing this subject...is kind of misleading.

It's true that they way male characters are portrayed in videogames usually doesn't stray far away from the same mold-that being a bad ass, musclebound type of characters, BUT to imply that that's actually a problem amongst gamers is the misleading part.

The majority of gamers actually WANTS their male characters to be portrayed that way. Sure, there are minorities that wants something different, but i'm betting for the vast majority of male gamers, this is exactly how they want it.

The same can not be said for the majority of female gamers...and herein lies the problem. Sure, the stereotypes exist on both spectrum, but it's actually a problem for one side while the other side doesn't really have a problem with it.

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Old 01-23-2013, 06:20 PM   #69
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Default Re: A problem I'm having as a Girl Gamer...

Should every game be made for everyone though? I mean, some books and movies aren't made with everyone in mind... Why games?


I'm not about to tell someone not to design something a way they want to design it because someone may be annoyed by it. Hell, I absolutely hate what Square has done with the male characters by making them all look like Tranny hookers... But more power to them, I just won't play their games.

I don't play certain games, read certain comics, etc because I hate the way things are designed... If I miss out on an awesome game/story then so be it.

I don't think anyone should ever have to walk on egg shells. I'm not a "PC" guy. If a dev team wants to develop or design a game a certain way... More Powe to them... Just don't play it. If you want to play it... Then shrug it off.

That's basically all I have to say on the subject.. Play it.. Or don't. The choice is yours.


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Old 01-23-2013, 06:43 PM   #70
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Default Re: A problem I'm having as a Girl Gamer...

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Should every game be made for everyone though? I mean, some books and movies aren't made with everyone in mind... Why games?
Nope. Games would be boring as crap if that were the case.

The Same debate is brought up on all forms of media. Not every games gonna have characters relatable for everyone (regardless of sex) and people have a different line on what they find offensive no matter the subject. Its never gonna change. Like you said if it bothers someone or they just dont like it then they shouldnt play it. Theres enough variety around nowadays.


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Old 01-23-2013, 07:40 PM   #71
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Default Re: A problem I'm having as a Girl Gamer...

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Sorry I have been meaning to trim my nails...
I agree with a lot of the points you made in this thread. Right now I just can't bring myself to really engage in the debate cause I'm too tired lol, but I like the arguments you're making.

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Old 01-23-2013, 07:49 PM   #72
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Default Re: A problem I'm having as a Girl Gamer...

I think this trend is starting to die down, now that games are becoming a more respectful form of entertainment.

I think the Mass Effect series easily has the best female characters in gaming. It has some of my favorite girl characters out of anything.

Halo has also been pretty good at making female characters normal. The only one that seems "sexualized" is Cortana, but that's only through her design. She's a fantastic character besides that, especially in Halo 4.

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Old 01-23-2013, 07:56 PM   #73
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Default Re: A problem I'm having as a Girl Gamer...

But it's not about making games for 'everyone' the problem is the attitude that "it's what the majority wants". That's the problem. Why do they want that and what can we do to change that attitude is the main concern.

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Old 01-23-2013, 08:17 PM   #74
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Default Re: A problem I'm having as a Girl Gamer...

What are the games being questioned? GOW?

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Old 01-23-2013, 08:20 PM   #75
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Default Re: A problem I'm having as a Girl Gamer...

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But it's not about making games for 'everyone' the problem is the attitude that "it's what the majority wants". That's the problem. Why do they want that and what can we do to change that attitude is the main concern.
I think people care way to damn much, honestly. Maybe people should be asking themselves "Why am I connecting myself to this VIDEO GAME so much?" Instead...

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