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View Poll Results: I feel that the ACA is...
a positive thing for the country 8 12.12%
mostly positive 13 19.70%
I am indifferent/neutral to it. 3 4.55%
mostly negative 13 19.70%
terrible 23 34.85%
I need to wait and see. 6 9.09%
Voters: 66. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-26-2013, 06:57 PM   #51
Handsome Rob
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

GAO Report: Obamacare Adds $6.2 Trillion to the Long-Term Deficit

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...-andrew-stiles

Quote:
President Obama and other Democrats attempted to win support for the health-care bill by touting it as a fiscally responsible enterprise. “I will not sign a plan that adds one dime to our deficits — either now or in the future,” Obama told a joint-session of Congress in September 2009. “I will not sign it if it adds one dime to the deficit, now or in the future, period."
Pants on fire.

Of course, this was always about power for the Democrats. Actually improving our health care was merely the justification . . . and by no means the priority.

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Old 02-26-2013, 08:07 PM   #52
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

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Old 02-26-2013, 08:21 PM   #53
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

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Originally Posted by Handsome Rob View Post
GAO Report: Obamacare Adds $6.2 Trillion to the Long-Term Deficit

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...-andrew-stiles

Pants on fire.

Of course, this was always about power for the Democrats. Actually improving our health care was merely the justification . . . and by no means the priority.

I feel like eating a **** load of ice cream now.

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Old 02-26-2013, 09:26 PM   #54
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

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I feel like eating a **** load of ice cream now.
Might as well start drinking some whiskey or beer while you're at it.

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Old 02-27-2013, 02:24 PM   #55
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

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Originally Posted by RustyCage View Post
Has the thread gone over the matter of accountability on the part of the health care providers being funded by this? I have a couple of questions, if it's not too redundant.





With ya, Johnson-bro.

I can't wait until humanity evolves out of making arrogant, assuming retorts like that.

It's such a waste of time having to explain over and over again the simple concept that just because you disagree with what Obama's doing, you aren't automatically for Bush or Romney.

Research tends to lead one away from the bank-funded wolves.
My comment had more to do with the inherently dichotomous nature of the American political system (as opposed to any commentary on Figs personally and politically), but sure, you go ahead and pat yourself on the back.

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Old 02-27-2013, 04:41 PM   #56
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So much win

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Old 02-27-2013, 04:45 PM   #57
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So much win
Donna Brazile has to be one of the worst political analysts on any of the networks so this couldn't happen to a better person.

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Old 02-28-2013, 08:15 AM   #58
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http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-0...about-collapse

Some highlights (er, lowlights?)

#5 Back in 1960, an average of $147 was spent per person on health care in the United States. By 2009, that number had skyrocketed to $8,086.


#6 Why does it cost so much to stay in a hospital today? It just does not make sense. Just check out these numbers...


In 1942, Christ Hospital, NJ charged $7 per day for a maternity room. Today it’s $1,360.



#29 There were more than two dozen pharmaceutical companies that made over a billion dollars in profits during 2008.





#35 In America today, you are 64 times more likely to be killed by a doctor than you are by a gun.


#47 Back in 1965, only one out of every 50 Americans was on Medicaid. Today, one out of every 6 Americans is on Medicaid.



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Old 03-01-2013, 08:20 AM   #59
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

I HAVE insurance and I can barely afford medical bills...haha

I also have a friend who doesn't have insurance simply because he can't afford to buy it. He doesn't go to the doctor unless it's something serious for the same reason...it's too expensive.

So, the government is telling me that my friend will have to buy less food for his baby and himself because he's being forced against his will to pay for insurance he couldn't afford to begin with?

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Old 03-01-2013, 11:46 AM   #60
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

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Originally Posted by Handsome Rob View Post
GAO Report: Obamacare Adds $6.2 Trillion to the Long-Term Deficit

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...-andrew-stiles

Pants on fire.

Of course, this was always about power for the Democrats. Actually improving our health care was merely the justification . . . and by no means the priority.
I'm curious, has the Obama admin responded to this at all?


And btw, I understand why health care costs have gone up (crazy new technology that costs money that they didn't even dream of having in 1942), but the underlying problem still is the ridiculous amount of money they overcharge in the medical industry. From healthcare to the pharmaceutical industry, their profits are out of this goddamn world. How do we fix that? Even the original public option idea would have helped much more than what they eventually passed.

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Old 03-01-2013, 02:20 PM   #61
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

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Originally Posted by Destructus86 View Post
I HAVE insurance and I can barely afford medical bills...haha

I also have a friend who doesn't have insurance simply because he can't afford to buy it. He doesn't go to the doctor unless it's something serious for the same reason...it's too expensive.

So, the government is telling me that my friend will have to buy less food for his baby and himself because he's being forced against his will to pay for insurance he couldn't afford to begin with?
that's right! it's for his own good!

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Old 03-01-2013, 06:09 PM   #62
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

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Originally Posted by TheBat812 View Post
I'm curious, has the Obama admin responded to this at all?


And btw, I understand why health care costs have gone up (crazy new technology that costs money that they didn't even dream of having in 1942), but the underlying problem still is the ridiculous amount of money they overcharge in the medical industry. From healthcare to the pharmaceutical industry, their profits are out of this goddamn world. How do we fix that? Even the original public option idea would have helped much more than what they eventually passed.
That I know of, the Obama admin hasn't responded. I doubt they will, because I doubt this gets much airtime. Most of the MSM is filled with people deferential to Obama. Fox News or the WSJ might pick up on it, but that will probably be it.

The increasing cost of health care has multiple factors, and I'll just highlight a few.

1. Malpractice costs play into it. A few years ago, Mississippi passed tort reform. Prior to that, there were news reports of OB-GYNs whose malpractice insurance premiums were $250,000 per year. Think about that. Let's say a doctor has 1,000 patients in his practice. Before anything else, that's $250 per year tacked on to each patient's bill. Before the doctor's pay, the nurse's pay, assistant's pay, paperwork costs, compliance costs, medicine, supplies, facilities expense, continuing education costs, etc. My solution, by the way, is not to have limitations on punitive damages but to have medical lawsuits adjudicated in a special medical court as well as establishing a "loser pays" system to discourage frivolous filings.

2. Regulatory costs. In 2006, it cost a little over $802 million and about 7.5 years to bring a drug to market through FDA trials. Those are the successful drugs. Now, imagine all the drugs that never make it to market. Up until it's determined they won't make it, money is spent in developing these failed drugs. Now, in order to have money to invest in future projects, these drug companies must make a profit (all profit is is the difference between your revenues and your expenses) or borrow money. You could say, "Well, drug companies shouldn't make a profit," but then they would have to fund their expenditures by incurring debt or issuing equity instruments. Either way, it will almost certainly cost more in the long run than if they had just had the cash on hand. And, less money will be available to try for newer, better drugs. Those costs also would be added into the drug price. Finally, patent life. These drug companies have to make back that money sunk on R&D with a profit (for future investment purposes), but they have a limited amount of time to do it before generics become available. Regulations mean compliance. Compliance means cost. And Obamacare just brought a plethora of additional regulations with it, all tacked on to what we currently have.

3. Paperwork costs. I know this could fall under regulatory, but insurance companies are also to blame. At least as of 2005, 21% of private care medical spending involved paperwork in California. Paperwork takes up valuable time that could be seen treating patients. While some of it is undoubtedly necessary, there's no way anyone can claim that we have an efficient system. And, paperwork is only going up. At the first job I had as an accountant (I've spent nearly 10 years in the healthcare field), the entire accounting team dedicated weeks to filling out cost reports for Medicare and Medicaid for each of our individual facilities. There was one form for Medicare, and each state had its own individual version for Medicaid. There was a significant amount of time learning the different Medicaid formats, as well. Incidentally, Florida had the best version of all the states I prepared reports for.

4. Underpayment. Whenever someone doesn't pay their bill or a provider (such as Medicaid) pays less than the service/medicine costs, then the other payers have to make up the difference. Think of it this way: if one out of every ten widgets you try to sell is stolen, you'll have to raise the price on the other widgets in order to recoup the money lost on the one widget. Health care is no different.

5. Insurance for everything! If I were designing a health insurance plan, it would cover major medical procedures, while everything else would be paid out-of-pocket. People are more cost conscious, if you pay out of pocket. I have a personal story that I've posted here before that I think explains perfectly why more out-of-pocket health care costs would be beneficial to the consumer. Cost consciousness is why I'm a huge opponent of single payer or mandated "free" health care, especially given #6.

6. Slobbery and fear. We're fat slobs, it ain't healthy, and health care costs are higher on average as a result. And, we go to the doctor too much. My dad worked as an ER doc for several years, and he can tell you about how people would frequently come to the ER . . . for a cold. Or because they had indigestion. These visits take up time AND money in an inefficient manner.

7. Age. Americans are living longer, and costs just tend to go up as you age. Any honest discussion of lowering health care costs or health insurance costs has to include end-of-life care costs.

That's just seven, in addition to the increasing tech that you mentioned. I'm sure there are more, but these are the main contributors in my opinion.

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Old 03-09-2013, 02:45 AM   #63
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Under the Affordable Care Act, only certain real estate transactions for certain .

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Old 03-09-2013, 11:28 AM   #64
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

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Originally Posted by Handsome Rob View Post
That I know of, the Obama admin hasn't responded. I doubt they will, because I doubt this gets much airtime. Most of the MSM is filled with people deferential to Obama. Fox News or the WSJ might pick up on it, but that will probably be it.

The increasing cost of health care has multiple factors, and I'll just highlight a few.

1. Malpractice costs play into it. A few years ago, Mississippi passed tort reform. Prior to that, there were news reports of OB-GYNs whose malpractice insurance premiums were $250,000 per year. Think about that. Let's say a doctor has 1,000 patients in his practice. Before anything else, that's $250 per year tacked on to each patient's bill. Before the doctor's pay, the nurse's pay, assistant's pay, paperwork costs, compliance costs, medicine, supplies, facilities expense, continuing education costs, etc. My solution, by the way, is not to have limitations on punitive damages but to have medical lawsuits adjudicated in a special medical court as well as establishing a "loser pays" system to discourage frivolous filings.

2. Regulatory costs. In 2006, it cost a little over $802 million and about 7.5 years to bring a drug to market through FDA trials. Those are the successful drugs. Now, imagine all the drugs that never make it to market. Up until it's determined they won't make it, money is spent in developing these failed drugs. Now, in order to have money to invest in future projects, these drug companies must make a profit (all profit is is the difference between your revenues and your expenses) or borrow money. You could say, "Well, drug companies shouldn't make a profit," but then they would have to fund their expenditures by incurring debt or issuing equity instruments. Either way, it will almost certainly cost more in the long run than if they had just had the cash on hand. And, less money will be available to try for newer, better drugs. Those costs also would be added into the drug price. Finally, patent life. These drug companies have to make back that money sunk on R&D with a profit (for future investment purposes), but they have a limited amount of time to do it before generics become available. Regulations mean compliance. Compliance means cost. And Obamacare just brought a plethora of additional regulations with it, all tacked on to what we currently have.

3. Paperwork costs. I know this could fall under regulatory, but insurance companies are also to blame. At least as of 2005, 21% of private care medical spending involved paperwork in California. Paperwork takes up valuable time that could be seen treating patients. While some of it is undoubtedly necessary, there's no way anyone can claim that we have an efficient system. And, paperwork is only going up. At the first job I had as an accountant (I've spent nearly 10 years in the healthcare field), the entire accounting team dedicated weeks to filling out cost reports for Medicare and Medicaid for each of our individual facilities. There was one form for Medicare, and each state had its own individual version for Medicaid. There was a significant amount of time learning the different Medicaid formats, as well. Incidentally, Florida had the best version of all the states I prepared reports for.

4. Underpayment. Whenever someone doesn't pay their bill or a provider (such as Medicaid) pays less than the service/medicine costs, then the other payers have to make up the difference. Think of it this way: if one out of every ten widgets you try to sell is stolen, you'll have to raise the price on the other widgets in order to recoup the money lost on the one widget. Health care is no different.

5. Insurance for everything! If I were designing a health insurance plan, it would cover major medical procedures, while everything else would be paid out-of-pocket. People are more cost conscious, if you pay out of pocket. I have a personal story that I've posted here before that I think explains perfectly why more out-of-pocket health care costs would be beneficial to the consumer. Cost consciousness is why I'm a huge opponent of single payer or mandated "free" health care, especially given #6.

6. Slobbery and fear. We're fat slobs, it ain't healthy, and health care costs are higher on average as a result. And, we go to the doctor too much. My dad worked as an ER doc for several years, and he can tell you about how people would frequently come to the ER . . . for a cold. Or because they had indigestion. These visits take up time AND money in an inefficient manner.

7. Age. Americans are living longer, and costs just tend to go up as you age. Any honest discussion of lowering health care costs or health insurance costs has to include end-of-life care costs.

That's just seven, in addition to the increasing tech that you mentioned. I'm sure there are more, but these are the main contributors in my opinion.
I think the lack of some posting on this thread says a lot as well.....as much as people had good intentions, this was just too big of a change in too short of a period of time. Our economy, our medical personnel etc....were/are just not ready.

Not that Health Care Reform wasn't needed....but this could have been done in much smaller doses, over a period of time, and would have been much better.

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Old 03-09-2013, 11:30 AM   #65
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

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Donna Brazile has to be one of the worst political analysts on any of the networks so this couldn't happen to a better person.

I actually use to like her, I liked her thought process... but man....when Obama became President, she went FAAAAAR left. It was weird.

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Old 03-09-2013, 09:22 PM   #66
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

Can someone here explain to me why your healthcare system is tied up in employment and not a single payer system like we have here in Australia?

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Old 03-09-2013, 10:07 PM   #67
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

Still makes no sense to me that the grand solution was "OK. You people who don't have health insurance. You HAVE to buy it now or your fined/taxed. Don't worry we made it cheaper."

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Old 03-09-2013, 10:20 PM   #68
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"but not really cheaper."

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Old 03-10-2013, 01:17 PM   #69
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

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I think the lack of some posting on this thread says a lot as well.....as much as people had good intentions, this was just too big of a change in too short of a period of time. Our economy, our medical personnel etc....were/are just not ready.

Not that Health Care Reform wasn't needed....but this could have been done in much smaller doses, over a period of time, and would have been much better.
I do believe that some of the Hype left, even the ones I strongly argue with, genuinely believed that Obamacare was going to be a good thing.

But, I don't believe such good intentions were with the Democrats in Congress or Obama. I believe that, to them, this was nothing more than a power grab. It would increase government dependency and bureaucracy, thus helping Democrats gain or maintain power. Increased dependence on government is an unwritten Democratic goal. They will add "health insurance" to "Social Security" and "Medicare" to the list of things Republicans want to "take away" as election-time scare tactics employed by the Democrats and their interest groups.

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Old 03-10-2013, 01:23 PM   #70
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

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Can someone here explain to me why your healthcare system is tied up in employment and not a single payer system like we have here in Australia?
It's not. There are benefits to getting health insurance through your employer, but you could also buy it on your own. Economies of scale help make insurance lower when bought as a group. I have a Costco membership, and I save money by buying in bulk as opposed to smaller individual purchases--the same thing applies to health insurance.

As for single payer, my main opposition to that is because I believe that a true free market system (which is not what we have in place or have had for several decades in regard to health insurance and health care) would lower costs. You need look no further than the cosmetic/plastic surgery business--insurance usually doesn't cover cosmetic procedures, and that business has not seen the price/cost spikes that the rest of the medical field has.

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Old 03-10-2013, 02:15 PM   #71
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It won't be a part of the true free market until I can buy any insurance from any state that I want....

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Old 03-11-2013, 08:19 PM   #72
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It won't be a part of the true free market until I can buy any insurance from any state that I want....
Agreed. I don't see why Congress doesn't invoke an actual Constitutional power and override the prohibition on this type of interstate commerce.

But in more Obamacare-is-awesome- news . . .

Five Guys: Obamacare Will Boost Burger Prices

http://washingtonexaminer.com/article/2523934

Quote:
"Any added costs are going to have to be passed on," said Mike Ruffer, a Five Guys franchise holder with eight of the popular restaurants in the Raleigh-Durham, N.C. area. He will need all the profits from at least one of his eight outlets just to cover his estimated added $60,000-a year in new Obamacare costs.
Welcome to math, folks. The money tree doesn't exist.

Quote:
What's more, he's iced plans to build another three restaurants until after the administration explains the exact rules and penalties employers will face. The law's plan to have those available March 1 has been pushed back to October.
Surprise surprise on the gov't delay. And the longer those three restaurants don't open, the longer the jobs that would go with those three restaurants doesn't exist.

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Old 03-11-2013, 09:41 PM   #73
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Agreed. I don't see why Congress doesn't invoke an actual Constitutional power and override the prohibition on this type of interstate commerce.

But in more Obamacare-is-awesome- news . . .

Five Guys: Obamacare Will Boost Burger Prices

http://washingtonexaminer.com/article/2523934

Welcome to math, folks. The money tree doesn't exist.

Surprise surprise on the gov't delay. And the longer those three restaurants don't open, the longer the jobs that would go with those three restaurants doesn't exist.
Quote:
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Margaret Thatcher

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Old 03-12-2013, 08:50 PM   #74
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

Mitch McConnell printed out all 20,000 pages of regulations of ObamaCare and then stacked it in his office. It measured in at about 7 feet tall. I don't know how anyone expected all members of Congress to read this before voting on this. If someone says they did, I call BS. There's no reason a new set of such important laws has to be that long and passed all at once. Really should have broken it up into multiple bills that were more manageable to understand.


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Old 03-12-2013, 08:54 PM   #75
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Mitch McConnell printed out all 20,000 pages of regulations of ObamaCare and then stacked it in his office. It measured in at about 7 feet tall. I don't know how anyone expected all members of Congress to read this before voting on this. If someone says they did, I call BS. There's no reason a new set of such important laws has to be that long and passed all at once. Really should have broken it up into multiple bills that were more manageable to understand.

I have a couple of lawyer friends that did in fact read the entire thing. They have read tons of legislation...they said that this piece of legislation was the worst written piece of legislation they have ever seen. It talked in rounds, they said it looked like they had purposely wrote it to make it confusing. They said it was horrible....I read the first 300 pages and gave up.

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