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Old 03-26-2013, 06:06 PM   #501
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinio...olumn/1999243/

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Old 03-26-2013, 06:08 PM   #502
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

My family and I have been showing support for a very long time. My mom and her boyfriend have been together for 17 years and won't get married until everyone in America can get married. Now my girlfriend and I are about to celebrate our 6-year anniversary in May, and we're not getting married either.

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Old 03-26-2013, 06:50 PM   #503
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Please, that photo is so misleading: those two dogs are so totally Unitarians.

Yeah, I can tell.

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Old 03-26-2013, 07:16 PM   #504
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

So what was the ruling today? I've been out of the house all day, and will be for a few more hours.

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Old 03-26-2013, 07:18 PM   #505
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

There wasn't one.

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Old 03-26-2013, 08:08 PM   #506
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

Yeah, SCOTUS usually takes between two to four months to rule on a case.

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Old 03-26-2013, 08:21 PM   #507
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

Well, I am going on what Ginsburg said on Roe Vs. Wade.... she said that even though she is for the Women's Right to have an abortion, she believes the law was badly done because it did not go to the people....I have a feeling that most if not all feel that way with this. They may very well believe in same sex marriage, and the rights that should come with it...but they will leave it to the people. Unfortunately for my friends here, it looks like this is going to have to go the way of the states.....

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Old 03-26-2013, 08:37 PM   #508
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

Its kinda upsetting they may even be comparing this to roe v wade... Imo

I don't really think gay marriage will go the way of abortion. Its not like people picket interracial weddings anymore.... And that was once backed by skewed religious beliefs too.

I think its a pretty bad comparison and shows how pathetic they really are. They'd rather avoid controversy all together than do what's right.

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Old 03-26-2013, 08:39 PM   #509
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

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Well, I am going on what Ginsburg said on Roe Vs. Wade.... she said that even though she is for the Women's Right to have an abortion, she believes the law was badly done because it did not go to the people....I have a feeling that most if not all feel that way with this. They may very well believe in same sex marriage, and the rights that should come with it...but they will leave it to the people. Unfortunately for my friends here, it looks like this is going to have to go the way of the states.....
Upholding the Constitutionality of Prop 8 may be better for the gay rights movement than kicking this based on standing. Hear me out:

SCOTUS kicks it based on standing and you have a circuit split. Even if the people of say....Louisiana, vote to legalize gay marriage, the extremely conservative Court of Appeals on the Fifth Circuit can say, "Gay marriage is Unconstitutional!" (I'm sure the judges can find some kind of reason to support it). That will be perfectly acceptable if the Court doesn't rule. Kicking it based on standing doesn't leave it to the states. It leaves issue to the mercy of the Court of Appeals judges in any given Circuit.

On the other hand, upholding Prop 8 leaves it to the people. Support for same-sex marriage grows by the day. If you leave it to the people, they will eventually use referendums to vote in favor. My guess is, that will happen quicker than all of the Court of Appeals districts legalizing same sex marriage.

It is an interesting thought....can SCOTUS upholding Prop 8 result in gay rights faster than SCOTUS kicking it....hmm...

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Old 03-26-2013, 08:39 PM   #510
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

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Honestly, I'm not really expecting a whole heck of a lot to come out of SCOTUS about this, but it is kind of awesome to have half the people on my Facebook friend list change their profile pictures to the equality sign.
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... So, why are people going nuts on Facebook as if something happened today, or as if anything significant will come of any of this?
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it's about showing support. And i gotta say, it's pretty awesome to see so many straight people follow suit with it. Makes me feel very good
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It's mostly symbolic, a show of support.
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Same.
It's really nice to see. I was very surprised by some of the people on my friend's list who changed their profiles pictures over to the equality sign.

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Old 03-26-2013, 08:43 PM   #511
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

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Its kinda upsetting they may even be comparing this to roe v wade... Imo

I don't really think gay marriage will go the way of abortion. Its not like people picket interracial weddings anymore.... And that was once backed by skewed religious beliefs too.

I think its a pretty bad comparison and shows how pathetic they really are. They'd rather avoid controversy all together than do what's right.
Pretty much. It'll be very interesting to see how this all turns out though. SCOTUS pushing this off could very well backfire on them and cause even more of a ground swell...leading to a possible "fast-tracking" of gay marriage throughout the country.

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Old 03-26-2013, 08:45 PM   #512
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Yeah, SCOTUS usually takes between two to four months to rule on a case.
Oh damn I thought it was like Obama care where today was the ruling day.

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Old 03-26-2013, 08:45 PM   #513
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Upholding the Constitutionality of Prop 8 may be better for the gay rights movement than kicking this based on standing. Hear me out:

SCOTUS kicks it based on standing and you have a circuit split. Even if the people of say....Louisiana, vote to legalize gay marriage, the extremely conservative Court of Appeals on the Fifth Circuit can say, "Gay marriage is Unconstitutional!" (I'm sure the judges can find some kind of reason to support it). That will be perfectly acceptable if the Court doesn't rule. Kicking it based on standing doesn't leave it to the states. It leaves issue to the mercy of the Court of Appeals judges in any given Circuit.

On the other hand, upholding Prop 8 leaves it to the people. Support for same-sex marriage grows by the day. If you leave it to the people, they will eventually use referendums to vote in favor. My guess is, that will happen quicker than all of the Court of Appeals districts legalizing same sex marriage.

It is an interesting thought....can SCOTUS upholding Prop 8 result in gay rights faster than SCOTUS kicking it....hmm...
61% of Californians now support gay marriage.

And there's actually a growing call for a do over (a vote to repeal Prop 8).

I'd like to see what all those Prop 8 supporters who said "The People have spoken" would say if the people voted to overturn it

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Old 03-26-2013, 08:45 PM   #514
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

One person I knew changed their pic to the equality sign...except with a slight variation:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:


I love it.

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Old 03-26-2013, 08:45 PM   #515
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

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Its kinda upsetting they may even be comparing this to roe v wade... Imo

I don't really think gay marriage will go the way of abortion. Its not like people picket interracial weddings anymore.... And that was once backed by skewed religious beliefs too.

I think its a pretty bad comparison and shows how pathetic they really are. They'd rather avoid controversy all together than do what's right.

- They're not comparing any of the particulars to Roe v. Wade, or comparing gay marriage to abortion in and of themselves, just that Roe v. Wade was a controversial hot-button issue that Americans were (and are) sharply divided on, and when the Supreme Court just sweepingly legalized abortion, a lot of people felt this small group of people just decided for everybody and took away any say the states had in it. The fear some have about SCOTUS potentially doing that with gay marriage (not that I think they would anyway) is that it would breed more hatred and resentment against gays if there was the perception once again of a tiny "elitist" group of "judicial activists" just forcing all the states to accept gay marriage, and that the (longer, harder-won) battle from state to state would, in the end, be the better way to go. On the other hand, this could take far longer and some states may not legalize gay marriage, or civil unions for that matter, any time soon, so that's unacceptable to some gay people...and I understand that viewpoint too. Every day that gay marriage is denied, some elderly gay couple/person dies without living to see a dream fulfilled. It's an extraordinarily emotional issue.

- People might not picket interracial marriages anymore (at least not in any significance), but they do still protest abortion clinics. Hence the Roe v. Wade comparison.

- SCOTUS does have a tendency to decline to rule on controversial issues.

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Old 03-26-2013, 08:48 PM   #516
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

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61% of Californians now support gay marriage.

And there's actually a growing call for a do over (a vote to repeal Prop 8).

I'd like to see what all those Prop 8 supporters who said "The People have spoken" would say if the people voted to overturn it
...those same people would be on tv publicly losing their minds and calling for the damnation of the state.

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One person I knew changed their pic to the equality sign...except with a slight variation:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
I saw that one!

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Old 03-26-2013, 08:58 PM   #517
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Its kinda upsetting they may even be comparing this to roe v wade... Imo

I don't really think gay marriage will go the way of abortion. Its not like people picket interracial weddings anymore.... And that was once backed by skewed religious beliefs too.

I think its a pretty bad comparison and shows how pathetic they really are. They'd rather avoid controversy all together than do what's right.
I think it is a fair comparison. People tend to get very....I dunno....antsy (for lack of better wording) about nine, unelected people determining major issues. It really fires up the opposition. Roe v. Wade never had to become a national issue. States were putting laws into place to protect the right to privacy and abortion long before SCOTUS decided to weigh in. It was trending in a manner very similar to gay marriage.

But then the Supreme Court decided to make the decision it made in Roe v. Wade. These nine tyrants on the bench were telling the states that they could not protect unborn lives. Suddenly a fire was lit. The same is not outside of the realm of possibility hear. You mention interracial marriage, but don't think that there wasn't a fallout from Loving v. Virginia. It was pretty hostile. It just isn't really looked at from that perspective historically but rather in terms of the civil rights movement as a whole. People weren't just pissed about Brown v. Board of Education. They were pissed about Loving, Brown, the Voting Rights Act, etc. It all kinda bled into one another to create the racial tension of the 60s and 70s.

The same cannot be said about Roe. There was only one case. That will be the case here (no pun intended) if SCOTUS constitutionally overturns Prop 8. Hollingsworth v. Perry will be THAT case. Lawrence v. Texas is no where in comparison to the impact that Hollingsworth v. Perry would have. And that impact would light a fire under the asses of the opposition.

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Old 03-26-2013, 09:01 PM   #518
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

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- They're not comparing any of the particulars to Roe v. Wade, or comparing gay marriage to abortion in and of themselves, just that Roe v. Wade was a controversial hot-button issue that Americans were (and are) sharply divided on, and when the Supreme Court just sweepingly legalized abortion, a lot of people felt this small group of people just decided for everybody and took away any say the states had in it. The fear some have about SCOTUS potentially doing that with gay marriage (not that I think they would anyway) is that it would breed more hatred and resentment against gays if there was the perception once again of a tiny "elitist" group of "judicial activists" just forcing all the states to accept gay marriage, and that the (longer, harder-won) battle from state to state would, in the end, be the better way to go. On the other hand, this could take far longer and some states may not legalize gay marriage, or civil unions for that matter, any time soon, so that's unacceptable to some gay people...and I understand that viewpoint too. Every day that gay marriage is denied, some elderly gay couple/person dies without living to see a dream fulfilled. It's an extraordinarily emotional issue.

- People might not picket interracial marriages anymore (at least not in any significance), but they do still protest abortion clinics. Hence the Roe v. Wade comparison.

- SCOTUS does have a tendency to decline to rule on controversial issues.
That's just it though. I don't think this situation would be a hot button issue 10 years from now if gay marriage was passed like abortion was. I don't think they'd have a roe v wade uproar. Hell i think there'd be a greater uproar actually if they favored prop 8. I think they're scared old people fearing another backlash and may ultimately create one by trying to avoid it.

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Old 03-26-2013, 09:01 PM   #519
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Pretty much. It'll be very interesting to see how this all turns out though. SCOTUS pushing this off could very well backfire on them and cause even more of a ground swell...leading to a possible "fast-tracking" of gay marriage throughout the country.
I think if it is kicked on lack of standing, the situation that you described wouldn't be a backfire at all but rather exactly what Kennedy and Roberts are hoping for.

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Old 03-26-2013, 09:07 PM   #520
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That's just it though. I don't think this situation would be a hot button issue 10 years from now if gay marriage was passed like abortion was. I don't think they'd have a roe v wade uproar. Hell i think there'd be a greater uproar actually if they favored prop 8. I think they're scared old people fearing another backlash and may ultimately create one by trying to avoid it.
To use your own comparison of interracial marriage, Brown v. Board of Education happened in 1954. Voting Rights Act was passed in 1965. Loving v. Virginia occurred in 1967. Racial tension of the Civil Rights Movement lasted well through the 80s and arguably into the early 90s (some may even go as far to say that they persist today). The reason you don't see it as "people didn't get pissed about interracial marriage," is because it happened as a chain of events which Loving was just a part of. Hollingsworth won't have that luxury.

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Old 03-26-2013, 09:08 PM   #521
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I think it is a fair comparison. People tend to get very....I dunno....antsy (for lack of better wording) about nine, unelected people determining major issues. It really fires up the opposition. Roe v. Wade never had to become a national issue. States were putting laws into place to protect the right to privacy and abortion long before SCOTUS decided to weigh in. It was trending in a manner very similar to gay marriage.

But then the Supreme Court decided to make the decision it made in Roe v. Wade. These nine tyrants on the bench were telling the states that they could not protect unborn lives. Suddenly a fire was lit. The same is not outside of the realm of possibility hear. You mention interracial marriage, but don't think that there wasn't a fallout from Loving v. Virginia. It was pretty hostile. It just isn't really looked at from that perspective historically but rather in terms of the civil rights movement as a whole. People weren't just pissed about Brown v. Board of Education. They were pissed about Loving, Brown, the Voting Rights Act, etc. It all kinda bled into one another to create the racial tension of the 60s and 70s.

The same cannot be said about Roe. There was only one case. That will be the case here (no pun intended) if SCOTUS constitutionally overturns Prop 8. Hollingsworth v. Perry will be THAT case. Lawrence v. Texas is no where in comparison to the impact that Hollingsworth v. Perry would have. And that impact would light a fire under the asses of the opposition.
I just don't see people getting that rampant over gay marriage rights compared to the "killing of babies" I've been to quite a few protests, prides and other events and the opposers are always in very tiny pathetic numbers.... Even today in DC

They might take some heat, but i don't see it having a roe v wade effect to the point of it being such a major backlash that 40 years later its such a 50/50 issue

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Old 03-26-2013, 09:12 PM   #522
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I just don't see people getting that rampant over gay marriage rights compared to the "killing of babies" I've been to quite a few protests, prides and other events and the opposers are always in very tiny pathetic numbers.... Even today in DC

They might take some heat, but i don't see it having a roe v wade effect to the point of it being such a major backlash that 40 years later its such a 50/50 issue
But that is the exact point that Ginsburg, Kennedy, etc are making. There wasn't much of an opposition to abortion when states were doing it. No one really cared. But when the nine spoke and created national law, the opposition was galvanized and grew as a result. But what do Ginsburg and Kennedy know? They just lived through it. I'm sure that spideyboy_1111 knows better than them.

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Old 03-26-2013, 09:14 PM   #523
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But that is the exact point that Ginsburg, Kennedy, etc are making. There wasn't much of an opposition to abortion when states were doing it. No one really cared. But when the nine spoke and created national law, the opposition was galvanized and grew as a result. But what do Ginsburg and Kennedy know? They just lived through it. I'm sure that spideyboy_1111 knows better than them.
I just do not foresee it happening that way.

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Old 03-26-2013, 09:14 PM   #524
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Lightbulb Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

UPDATE: SUMMARY OF SOME KEY POINTS DURING TODAY'S PROP 8 HEARING
http://www.advocate.com/politics/mar...tion-8-hearing

...a very interesting day, indeed.

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Old 03-26-2013, 09:19 PM   #525
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Justice Sonia Sotomayor asked the proponents’ lawyer, “Outside of the marriage context,” can you think of any other rational reason for denying gays and lesbians certain rights, such as denying them a job or housing? Cooper conceded, “Your honor, I cannot.” If that is true, she responded, “why aren’t they a class? If they're a class that makes any other discrimination improper.” Cooper could not defend the point and instead suggested, “Our submission is that same-sex couples and opposite-sex couples are not similarly situated.”
Quote:
Justice Antonin Scalia did go on a rant of sorts, insisting that Olson explain, “When did it become unconstitutional to exclude homosexual couples from marriage?” Olson offered, respectfully, “When did it become unconstitutional to prohibit interracial marriage?” (The suggestion being that it became so when the Supreme Court decided Loving v. Virginia in 1967.) Scalia responded, “Don’t give me a question to my question.” Then, like a dog with a bone, he insisted on getting a date certain when it became unconstitutional. Finally, Olson conceded, “There’s no specific date in time.”
Quote:
Justice Anthony Kennedy, the “swing” vote, asserted rather passionately for an otherwise stoic judge that “there is an immediate legal injury” if same-sex couples continue to be excluded from entering legal marriages. “That’s the voice of these children,” he said, referring to an estimated 40,000 kids who California same-sex couples are raising. Cooper responded, “I certainly would not dispute the importance of that question.”
Interesting highlights.

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