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Old 01-18-2013, 08:46 PM   #76
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

Just so I have more to say than just "subscribe" I just want to say I am FOR gay rights and I don't understand how any American can be otherwise.

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Old 01-18-2013, 09:07 PM   #77
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

You don't?

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Old 01-18-2013, 09:12 PM   #78
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You don't?
I'm being mostly hyperbolic, but yea, sort of. I mean, I've heard some reasons against it and it doesn't seem to gel with the concepts of America

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Old 01-19-2013, 02:06 AM   #79
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

I "understand" in an abstract way, but I do think its un-American to deny legal equality to law abiding tax paying citizens.

And the fact that people are still being fired from their jobs, denied housing, or denied hospital visitation rights in 2013 is incredibly disgraceful and humiliating as a nation.

Marriage is one thing, but there is no religious excuse for the above.

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Old 01-19-2013, 02:35 AM   #80
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

I don't agree with it, but I understand it. If you're a Catholic who's been told their whole life that gays are wrong, just as we are told criminals are wrong, and you see it being embraced- you're not going to like it. To you, it's a sign of a detrimental society.
It's wrong, but you can't oppose the other side's argument unless you understand it clearly.

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Old 01-19-2013, 04:36 AM   #81
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

Dunno if I've been in this thread. But I voted that they will 'Vote Against, making it a Federal issue'. Yes, technically it should be a State Rights issue and let people within the States vote on it, but we all know most States don't want Gay Marriage. So, let the Federal Govt do something right for once, have Gay Marriage be a Federally Right. That is protected.

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Old 01-19-2013, 09:50 AM   #82
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

The problem is that if you leave it to the states, it will never be legalized in the south. Could you imagine if civil rights had been left to a popular vote?

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Old 01-19-2013, 12:39 PM   #83
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

A huge problem with voting for gay rights in my opinion is, like with civil rights, it shouldn't be a vote. Having people (especially those who hate them) decide whether or not a group of people get the same rights as everybody else is just wrong, at least in my eyes. The fact is, LGBT people are just people and should be allowed access to the same rights as everybody else is, the same way people of colour and women are today and were not allowed these rights in the past.

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Old 01-19-2013, 01:04 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Marx View Post
The problem is that if you leave it to the states, it will never be legalized in the south. Could you imagine if civil rights had been left to a popular vote?
that what i said. gary johnson said that too. on par with civil rights of the 60s.

when i told my speech teacher last year, she was bit uneased with that.

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Old 01-19-2013, 05:03 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Gotham's Knight View Post
A huge problem with voting for gay rights in my opinion is, like with civil rights, it shouldn't be a vote. Having people (especially those who hate them) decide whether or not a group of people get the same rights as everybody else is just wrong, at least in my eyes. The fact is, LGBT people are just people and should be allowed access to the same rights as everybody else is, the same way people of colour and women are today and were not allowed these rights in the past.

Agreed. No one should get to vote on whether someone is equal under the law. The very concept is obscene, IMO.

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Old 01-19-2013, 05:23 PM   #86
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

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The problem is that if you leave it to the states, it will never be legalized in the south. Could you imagine if civil rights had been left to a popular vote?
In time the South will come around. But I think the movement needs some momentum in order to gain acceptance in the South by winning in states like New Jersey, Delaware, Oregon, Rhode Island, and California.

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Old 01-19-2013, 06:49 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Schlosser85 View Post
Agreed. No one should get to vote on whether someone is equal under the law. The very concept is obscene, IMO.
Yes, it's a sickening concept. The fact we live in a world where people get to pick if others get rights is revolting to say the least.

EDIT: One thing I would like to add is my disgust for the "Respect my opinion that gays are wrong and shouldn't have rights" argument that I have heard many times in the past. When your opinion is that a group of people should not have the same rights you are entitled to, it no longer has to be respected. It's like if someone told me that African people should go back to being slaves. Does that opinion deserve to be respected as well? No and I'm sure majority of people would argue against that stance because it is racist and offensive. So why is it that saying that LGBT people should not have rights (be it marriage or rights in general) is considered acceptable by a considerable chunk of the population? If people started deciding whether or not you get to have rights, would you respect their opinion that you don't deserve rights?

And, if anyone who reads this is against LGBT rights, I ask you this: why do you get to decide whether or not these people deserve the same rights as you? And why should they not get to vote on your rights?


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Old 01-19-2013, 10:35 PM   #88
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http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/gay-...bbyist-5322301

I guess, because I'm a lesbian, I'm a crime boss now. I'm going to run Falcone out of business.

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Old 01-20-2013, 12:21 AM   #89
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

Mr. McVicars, like the Vatican spokesmen who equate homosexuality and pedophilia, is either completely disingenuous or knows nothing about reality.

I have zero trouble believing either possibility, but I'm very weary of the BS.

I guess I'm just tired of it and grown extremely cynical and have no faith that all these churches, religious leaders, politicians, etc. actually believe a word that comes out of their mouth.

And frankly, if they do believe some of this stuff that they say....they're incredibly unintelligent. To like, knuckle-dragging, "oo oo, ahh ahh" levels.

That level of stupidity is as disgusting to me as homosexuality is to them.

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Old 01-20-2013, 01:29 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Schlosser85 View Post
Mr. McVicars, like the Vatican spokesmen who equate homosexuality and pedophilia, is either completely disingenuous or knows nothing about reality.

I have zero trouble believing either possibility, but I'm very weary of the BS.

I guess I'm just tired of it and grown extremely cynical and have no faith that all these churches, religious leaders, politicians, etc. actually believe a word that comes out of their mouth.

And frankly, if they do believe some of this stuff that they say....they're incredibly unintelligent. To like, knuckle-dragging, "oo oo, ahh ahh" levels.

That level of stupidity is as disgusting to me as homosexuality is to them.
I absolutely agree. I was born a Catholic but became Atheist once I actually read the Bible and saw the way it is exploited in life in order for narrow minded bigots to get their way. From the Pope spreading anti-gay marriage messages to Bishops calling gay people immoral, it's used more for evil in this world than for good.

Another article I read today was about how a Catholic Adoption agency saying that they will shut their doors if gay marriage is allowed. This "It's my way or the highway" mentality is absolutely disgusting and just shows the true colours of these religious groups. Are all religious people bad? No, not at all. I know a lot of great religious people who subscribe to the belief in a God or multiple gods. But there is such an overwhelming amount that just want to spread their hate speech behind the mask of moral superiority.

Now, that went fairly off topic, so let me bring it back to the central topic. The fact that these religions (Christianity being the most opposed at the moment) feel the need to block two consenting adults from loving each other just goes to show their narrow minded beliefs and the fact they don't understand their own Holy Book and live their life by picking and choosing what applies.

And this "traditional marriage" idea that these anti-gay Christians push is some of the stupidest BS I've ever heard. Let's take a look at what the Bible considers marriage:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuteronomy 22:28-29
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus 22:16-17
If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins.
I'm not going to bother looking for more because I just don't want to. But, are these traditional marriage then? They Bible says it's okay so it's okay, right?

But, yeah, point of that is that the traditional marriage idea is full of BS.

The beliefs that are held by some of these politicians and church leaders are appalling, as you pointed out. They are literally some of the least intelligent comments I have heard in my entire life.

I'm sorry if my post went a bit off topic, I get quite irritated by the Bible being used by Christians as a way to oppose people's rights and then cry religious persecution when they are questioned about it.

EDIT: Giving this another read over, I fear that I may have come across as religion bashing, which wasn't my intention. I do not believe in religion and believe it to be superstition. But I do not dislike people who believe in religion, generally. But I hate those who cherry pick what they believe from their religion and use it as a cover for opposing progress and people's rights.


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Old 01-20-2013, 10:03 AM   #91
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

The bible says quite a lot of things that people either choose to completely ignore or cherrypick in order to chastise and condemn people.

I am really enjoying reading your posts Gotham's Knight.

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Old 01-20-2013, 11:58 AM   #92
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

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Originally Posted by Gotham's Knight View Post


The fact that these religions (Christianity being the most opposed at the moment) feel the need to block two consenting adults from loving each other just goes to show their narrow minded beliefs and the fact they don't understand their own Holy Book and live their life by picking and choosing what applies.
Islam has extremely strong views against it as well....
http://islam.about.com/od/islamsays/a/homosexuality.htm

People tend to put the spotlight on "christians" in Africa as far as the violence against homosexuals, but "muslims" and their violence is far more widespread in Africa, just not as widely publicized. For some reason our media doesn't care about these acts of violence against homosexuals around the world....

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Sta...Homosexuals%29

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Old 01-20-2013, 12:35 PM   #93
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Islam has extremely strong views against it as well....
http://islam.about.com/od/islamsays/a/homosexuality.htm

People tend to put the spotlight on "christians" in Africa as far as the violence against homosexuals, but "muslims" and their violence is far more widespread in Africa, just not as widely publicized. For some reason our media doesn't care about these acts of violence against homosexuals around the world....

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Sta...Homosexuals%29
Fair enough. What I should have said is that Christianity is the most prominent group opposed to gay rights in this part of the world. Of course, not all Christians are opposed, just the more vocal people seem to be Christian and be against it for faith reasons (though, as I said above, the faith argument regarding traditional marriage is an awful argument to use).

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Old 01-20-2013, 03:06 PM   #94
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Fair enough. What I should have said is that Christianity is the most prominent group opposed to gay rights in this part of the world. Of course, not all Christians are opposed, just the more vocal people seem to be Christian and be against it for faith reasons (though, as I said above, the faith argument regarding traditional marriage is an awful argument to use).
I think you have a far greater number of people (Christian or not) that may not think that homosexuality is right, but if they want to go ahead and get married, no one should stop them...and might would even vote in favor of it if the states did in fact individually vote.

Question to me is, is that ok for the Gay Rights Movement...will they be ok with that, at this time....and then maybe, maybe not change these people's way of thinking later.....or be content with having the same rights, but possibly never changing a good number of people's minds on right or wrong.

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Old 01-20-2013, 03:53 PM   #95
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

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Originally Posted by Kelly View Post
I think you have a far greater number of people (Christian or not) that may not think that homosexuality is right, but if they want to go ahead and get married, no one should stop them...and might would even vote in favor of it if the states did in fact individually vote.

Question to me is, is that ok for the Gay Rights Movement...will they be ok with that, at this time....and then maybe, maybe not change these people's way of thinking later.....or be content with having the same rights, but possibly never changing a good number of people's minds on right or wrong.
changing everyones mind isn't really what the GRM is after though.. it's equality in the eyes of the gov. The more public figures that come out the more "normal" it becomes... back in the day Ellen or Lance Bass or even Ricky Martin coming out was such a "huge deal" but these days most people barely bat an eyelash at it. That's actually progress, coming out shouldn't be a big deal, it shouldn't be shocking, and there's more and more gay people out there ini the world (it's actually one of the reasons as to why Harvey Milk encouraged people to come out.. Human Beings fear what they don't know, arn't familiar with, arn't around, etc... and by more and more gay men and women around.... we've already changed far more minds in the last 50 years than anything else could.

i don't think it's smart to simply "wait around" for people to change there minds... there's still a lot of racism in america.. african american's if they had to wait around for that to go away.. they'd still be waiting.

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Old 01-20-2013, 04:04 PM   #96
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

While religion always makes things worse, I don't believe it's the main issue. People aren't homophobes because of a passage in the bible. Most self-proclaimed Christians couldn't tell you the name of the first book of the New Testament (they actually have done studies showing that).

Plenty of people have asked, why are people gay. But they rarely ask why people are homophobic. And we are talking about billions of people, across multiple cultures.

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Old 01-20-2013, 04:27 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly View Post
I think you have a far greater number of people (Christian or not) that may not think that homosexuality is right, but if they want to go ahead and get married, no one should stop them...and might would even vote in favor of it if the states did in fact individually vote.

Question to me is, is that ok for the Gay Rights Movement...will they be ok with that, at this time....and then maybe, maybe not change these people's way of thinking later.....or be content with having the same rights, but possibly never changing a good number of people's minds on right or wrong.
I do agree with your first paragraph but I wasn't trying to compare those who agree with homosexuality with those who disagree, I was just focusing on those who disagree and trying to say that, from what I have seen, the most vocal group opposed to gay rights has been (this is the term I should have used from the beginning, rather than the broader term of Christian) conservative Christian fundamentalists.

As for the second paragraph, I think most people who are part of the LGBT movement/identify as LGBT would be fine with having rights and not changing the minds of those opposed, as long as those opposed stop being so vocal and spiteful towards them. Kind of like with sexists and racists. People generally frown upon sexism and racism and, at least from my perspective, most LGBT people would like to see homophobia in there as well. Not stamped out (unfortunately, there will always be sexists, racists and homophobics) but definitely frowned upon by most people.

I have an example that I think shows the type of Christian I was intending to speak about in my above posts:

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1052/1052_01.asp

Now, out of having nothing better to do, I am going to pick this apart.

First of all, maybe I just haven't met enough people but, I don't know any gay people who introduce their partner as their 'wife'. It's usually just husband and husband.

Demons coming out of the gay people? Might want to reread that Bible of yours and remember to not judge others, lest you be judged, not to cast the first stone and so on rather than accusing others of being demons.

God also says that you can't wear clothing made of two fabrics, time to strip.

Actually, a lot of LGBT people (at least that I have spoken to) actually don't mind the term queer as long as it is not used as an insult. The word simply means that they are a sexual or gender minority. As long as it's not used as an insult, it's not a bad word.

What gay people say that people who disagree belong in an insane asylum? Deserve to be educated and should realize that gay people aren't out to ruin the world, sure. Belong in an insane asylum? That's a new one to me.

Quote:
"Lots of great and famous people are gay. But some people are just evil and intolerant."
Now, this quote isn't too bad. Ignoring the fact that it is obviously placed there in order to try and paint them in a bad light, it holds a lot of truth. Now, the part where it doesn't hold a lot of truth is the "evil" part. People who oppose homosexuality, in my experience, are intolerant, yes (at least of homosexuality). But evil? Who says that homophobic people are evil? I have honestly never seen that one before. Intolerance, yes. Absolutely. Evil? Not necessarily. Hitler was absolutely evil and was homophobic, so there's someone who was evil and homophobic. But there are definitely those out there who are generally good people but are intolerant of homosexuality. They're not evil but they are misguided.

Quote:
"They hate us and call us all kinds of nasty name. But if we get out way, they'll all be in prison. Oops!"
Is this supposed to be the gay agenda again? I still haven't gotten that agenda, by the way, would anyone mind sending it to me? And who said that homophobic people should all be in prison? As with sexism and racism, homophobia should be frowned upon by society. But, as with racism and sexism, as long as there is no crime (unfortunate how many there are) and they break no laws, they do not deserve to go to prison.


Quote:
"This is how gay people are changing the way little school kids think."
What? You mean that gay people actually go to school to spread the gay agenda? The most they would teach if given the chance is exactly what you claim your Bible teaches (love, acceptance).

Quote:
"Wrong! God hates homosexuality and warns us in the Bible to stay away from it! And the Bible is true!"
Oh that last sentence just gets me. Let's take a look at what else is true then!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus 21:7
"If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus 22:16-17
If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed and lies with her, he shall give the bride-price for her and make her his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the bride-price for virgins.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuteronomy 17:12
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus 21:15
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviticus 20:9
All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviticus 20:10
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2 Chronicles 15:12-13
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuteronomy 22:20-21
But if this charge is true (ME: that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus 31:12-15
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaiah 14:21
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephesians 6:5
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ
Get the point? Good.

Quote:
"Years ago, it was read in schools and kids learned about heaven and hell. But now we don't have a Bible, or even talk about Jesus, in school. So kids grow up not knowing what God says about the devil or what sin is!"
So your holy book should be taught in schools? Why yours? Why do you get a pass, but other religious cannot have their book in school? You can talk about Jesus, nobody's stopping you, but the teachers aren't going to tell you "Jesus is the only God and anybody who doesn't believe in him are going to hell!" at your school. Go to a private Catholic school (I wouldn't recommend it, I'm in one) if you want to be taught your religion.

So let me get this straight. Your God has a book that has the names of people who he will save in it. And the way he saved you from the original sin (which he condemned you to in the first place) is by banging up a girl to give birth to his son, which is actually himself, so that he can have himself tortured and killed to appease himself. Why not just show yourself instead? You know, the logical way. The way that makes actual sense. And why is Jesus coming back very soon? Why do people always say that? Is it because he really wants to meet you?

Quote:
"Do you want to pray now?" "YES!"
These kids are the most easily swayed kids in history. I could tell them that next to me is an invisible time travelling inter dimensional wish-granting unicorn named Joe who likes to play strip poker and they'd probably believe it.

Quote:
"All three children were saved."
And you know this how?

I'm not going to type the whole story of Sodom they kind of forgot one little detail. The 'hero', Lot, sells his daughters into sex slavery to get the people to stop r*ping the angels. That's not really a part you want to leave out.

Quote:
"Today those same kind of people are back, but now they're called gays!"
...I can't even comment on this. It is just to stupid.

Quote:
"He's coming from heaven to smash the devil...and all those who are against him."
He's going to smash the devil and all those who are against him? And here I thought that one of the Ten Commandments (and Beatitudes, if I remember correctly) said no killing. Well, the Bible does seem to be pretty loose on that one (see verses above).

Wow, I really need a hobby.


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Old 01-20-2013, 04:51 PM   #98
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly View Post
I think you have a far greater number of people (Christian or not) that may not think that homosexuality is right, but if they want to go ahead and get married, no one should stop them...and might would even vote in favor of it if the states did in fact individually vote.

Question to me is, is that ok for the Gay Rights Movement...will they be ok with that, at this time....and then maybe, maybe not change these people's way of thinking later.....or be content with having the same rights, but possibly never changing a good number of people's minds on right or wrong.
As has been said before, it is about equality in the eyes of the law. No tax paying citizen should be denied equal standing under the law.

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Old 01-20-2013, 05:01 PM   #99
Kelly
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

Well, once the legal portion of this issue is taken care of....and it will be, that I believe. Once those rights, that are rightly theirs are given...then we will see, if that is what all people fighting for this right wants.

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Old 01-20-2013, 05:29 PM   #100
Schlosser85
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIII

That link is propaganda on as absurd a level of something you'd expect from Josef Goebbels or Julius Streicher. I think if the people behind it actually knew anything about the religion they claim to represent, they'd know about a Commandment called "thou shalt not lie". As it is, their pretensions of Christianity are hilariously laughable.

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