That Wasn't The Wrestling Thread, That Was CGI!

[Hunter Rider]

Originally Posted by Parker Wayne

Not a bad list.

I grew up during attitude era so I find myself fond of Hogan, Rock, Bret Hart, HHH (Pre-injury HHH), Angle, the hardcore division (purely entertainment wise), Billy Kidman, Rey Mysterio, Ken Shamrock, Ultimo Dragon (loved the Cruiserweight division of WCW), and of course, Trish Stratus.

Cruiserweights were class and if I'd known you included Divas then Trish would be my #1 as well. As far as the Attitude era goes, DX, Austin and Foley were my guys. When you say Hogan do you mean his Hollywood Hogan run in WCW?

Oh and I confess I was a mark for early Goldberg.

[OnTheAir]

Originally Posted by The Sage

So...is Bruce Sammartino really the greatest of all time?

In what way? Greatest draw? Greatest worker? Greatest all-around talent?

Sammartino is legendary and definitely should take his rightful place in the Hall of Fame. This is long overdue, and props to Triple H for getting the deal done.

But, I can't call him "the greatest." The style of wrestling was very different back then, and I will admit it's not necessarily my favorite thing to watch. That said, Bruno was a good strong-man, power wrestler and babyface. (Did he ever work heel?) The Garden crowd loved him, and anyone who can keep a crowd engaged enough to remain champion for 8 years straight and over 11 years all together certainly qualifies as one of the all-time greats. But THE greatest? I'm not willing to go there.

Still, regardless, I'm thrilled that he's being inducted. A Hall of Fame for this company is incomplete without him and Backlund.

[Dr. Evil]

As an actor, The Rock is decent. He doesn't have an iconic action character like Sly, Arnold or Bruce do, but he makes decent films. Besides, not many action film guys outside of those three (other than maybe Hugh Jackman, Matt Damon and Daniel Craig) have iconic action film characters.

[OnTheAir]

Originally Posted by Hunter Rider

I'm sure some will disagree with me, but he was from a different era, never left his city and the length of the reign more so than the quality of it was the big deal.

By city, do you mean region/territory? Because Bruno worked more than MSG.

[LuisTX85]

Originally Posted by Hunter Rider

From arguably the most critical person in this thread who has watched 3 Raw's in 6 months I thought it was an excellent show. Good stuff from Punk at the start with a killer promo, Cesaro vs Roidback, Del Rio vs Cody, Bryan vs Rey and Punk vs Jericho all delivered in the ring, the latter being the MOTY so far. Bruno's HOF video, An awesome monster return from Mark Henry, Lesnar destroying Miz and strong promo work from Big Show.

Kane vs Sheamus and Orton vs Barrett were very average, Del Rio and Bo Dallas cut promos that were as bad as you'll ever see and it depends on your tolerance for Cena and his superfriends on how you feel about the last segment.

Thanx for the info,I appreciate it,I'll check out the show

[Hunter Rider]

Originally Posted by OnTheAir

In what way? Greatest draw? Greatest worker? Greatest all-around talent?

Sammartino is legendary and definitely should take his rightful place in the Hall of Fame. This is long overdue, and props to Triple H for getting the deal done.

But, I can't call him "the greatest." The style of wrestling was very different back then, and I will admit it's not necessarily my favorite thing to watch. That said, Bruno was a good strong-man, power wrestler and babyface. (Did he ever work heel?) The Garden crowd loved him, and anyone who can keep a crowd engaged enough to remain champion for 8 years straight and over 11 years all together certainly qualifies as one of the all-time greats. But THE greatest? I'm not willing to go there.

Still, regardless, I'm thrilled that he's being inducted. A Hall of Fame for this company is incomplete without him and Backlund.

This sums it up better than I did Sage, I wasn't trying to diss Bruno I was just trying to put into context why I couldn't class him with the greatest. His drawing power in NYC and what he meant to the people there is unique but from a very different time, but when you look at guys drawing in a business exposed market all over the world you really can't compare, and I don't think outside of the drawing part of the equation he is mentioned with the greats.

[Hunter Rider]

Originally Posted by OnTheAir

By city, do you mean region/territory? Because Bruno worked more than MSG.

I meant the Tri-State Area. Although he may have worked in Pennsylvania at some point I think.

[OnTheAir]

Oh, ok. As champion, he worked wherever WWWF went, so yes, he certainly worked NY/NJ/CT, but he also worked the other usual Northeastern stops: Boston, Philly, Baltimore, etc. But, he also wrestled internationally - Japan, Australia, Canada, Mexico and made appearances in Los Angeles, St. Louis, Chicago, etc.

I only saw him wrestle live once...in 1985 or so when he would come out of retirement every now and then for a match. Again, his style was never my cup of tea, but certainly by then he was way passed his prime.

[Hunter Rider]

Originally Posted by OnTheAir

Oh, ok. As champion, he worked wherever WWWF went, so yes, he certainly worked NY/NJ/CT, but he also worked the other usual Northeastern stops: Boston, Philly, Baltimore, etc. But, he also wrestled internationally - Japan, Australia, Canada, Mexico and made appearances in Los Angeles, St. Louis, Chicago, etc.

I only saw him wrestle live once...in 1985 or so when he would come out of retirement every now and then for a match. Again, his style was never my cup of tea, but certainly by then he was way passed his prime.

I didn't know he'd worked in Japan and Australia, I didn't realize Vince Sr did overseas shots when he was in charge. I think the key is that his drawing power was pretty much confined to up and down that turnpike as WWWF was not near the draw the NWA was back then.

[ImWithTeamConan]

Saw the movie Chronicle about a month ago and loved it, did some research on it and found out the writer Max Landis is John Landis' son who loves comic books and pro wrestling. He did a podcast recently with Dolph Ziggler and some of the dialogue got mixed into what I think is an awesome video.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

[Hamill-Joker]

I know Bruno was quite big in Canada when working for the Tunny family when Vince had blackballed him from the business him for a time.

I'd put Bruno up there right next to Lou Thesz on the list of the greatest.

[OnTheAir]

Originally Posted by Hunter Rider

I didn't know he'd worked in Japan and Australia, I didn't realize Vince Sr did overseas shots when he was in charge. I think the key is that his drawing power was pretty much confined to up and down that turnpike as WWWF was not near the draw the NWA was back then.

I'm not sure how it worked back then. I don't think Vince Sr loaded up all of his talent on a plane and sent them overseas like they do today. I think the champion went alone to perform overseas (similarly, I recall Flair usually going overseas as NWA champ by himself in the 80s, as did Hogan as WWF champ).

Was the WWWF a smaller draw than the NWA in those days? In a sense, yes, seeing as how the WWWF was a part of the NWA at the time. I think they left the NWA in 1982 or 83 after Vince Jr bought the company from Vince Sr and changed the name from the World Wide Wrestling Federation to the World Wrestling Federation.

But, as you said previously, everything was territorial at the time. And almost everything was under the NWA banner. I don't know that the WWWF drew less money than any of the other NWA territories. Maybe they did...I'm just not aware. Certainly they wouldn't have drawn if they left the northeast and tried to run a show in, say, Georgia at the time. But the reverse would be true as well...Georgia wouldn't have drawn if they tried to run a show in NYC.

[OnTheAir]

Originally Posted by Hamill-Joker

I'd put Bruno up there right next to Lou Thesz on the list of the greatest.

Agreed. They both belong in the "all-time greats" conversation. Although, I'd actually be more willing to entertain an argument for Thesz as THE greatest than I would Bruno.

I'm surprised that Vince hasn't put Thesz in yet. Although, I'm sure Triple H will rectify that eventually. Say what you want about Trips (much of it well-deserved), he seems to have a strong appreciation for the history of the industry.

[bullets]

Originally Posted by The Sage

So...is Bruce Sammartino really the greatest of all time?

He's a big part of wrestling history and deserves to go in the Hall of Fame. I don't see him making anyone in this thread's top ten favorite list though. He's well before most people's time here. I've seen some of his classics on ESPN. I thought it was cool to see , but never could get really into it.

What a great Hall of Fame class. Triple H obviously has a profound respect for his elders. I'm also glad Bruno set his differences aside for this.

[Parker Wayne]

Originally Posted by Hunter Rider

Cruiserweights were class and if I'd known you included Divas then Trish would be my #1 as well. As far as the Attitude era goes, DX, Austin and Foley were my guys. When you say Hogan do you mean his Hollywood Hogan run in WCW?

Oh and I confess I was a mark for early Goldberg.

Of course Trish would be there, she was my teen crush haha.

I liked Hogan in the 80s and his NWO run. Not a huge fan of his 90s stuff before NWO. With John Cena I can see how it got stale.

And how did I not mention Austin? Also Goldberg and Understaker goes on that list also along with having awesomely long entrances.

[Hunter Rider]

Originally Posted by OnTheAir

I'm not sure how it worked back then. I don't think Vince Sr loaded up all of his talent on a plane and sent them overseas like they do today. I think the champion went alone to perform overseas (similarly, I recall Flair usually going overseas as NWA champ by himself in the 80s, as did Hogan as WWF champ).

Was the WWWF a smaller draw than the NWA in those days? In a sense, yes, seeing as how the WWWF was a part of the NWA at the time. I think they left the NWA in 1982 or 83 after Vince Jr bought the company from Vince Sr and changed the name from the World Wide Wrestling Federation to the World Wrestling Federation.

But, as you said previously, everything was territorial at the time. And almost everything was under the NWA banner. I don't know that the WWWF drew less money than any of the other NWA territories. Maybe they did...I'm just not aware. Certainly they wouldn't have drawn if they left the northeast and tried to run a show in, say, Georgia at the time. But the reverse would be true as well...Georgia wouldn't have drawn if they tried to run a show in NYC.

I'm not sure exactly when the change came but I know by 89 WWF was bringing the full show for tours of Europe and Japan, the thing when Flair went overseas he went to defend the belt which was why he called himself the real world's champion, as the NWA wasn't so much a territory as it was the governing body.

When I said the NWA was a bigger draw I was alluding to the way that the NWA world champion worked all territories and was required to draw all over the US and internationally. Now given the stronghold of the NWA was the other side of the US from WWWF it may have played a part in Bruno not getting the nod to be the World champion, but he was never tested as a draw the way Harley Race and Ric Flair were.

When talking about the greatest it's a difficult thing because there are different factors and also the style of how wrestling is presented and the matches are worked has changed so vastly it's hard to compare.

I mean as a global draw Hogan is untouchable, as the biggest draw of the over-saturated modern era Austin is king, as far as territories go Bruno's 186 consecutive MSG sell-outs and 8 year run as champion is in a league of it's own. Ric Flair is the greatest World champion ever when you consider the definition of world champion, he drew money and had great matches with everybody who was anybody from one end of the world to the other. When it comes to in-ring performer Shawn Michaels is regarded as the best ever by most of his peers, most of the generation before him and most of the current generation, even people who hate him say he's the greatest worker ever. Lou Thez was the closest to the real deal as you'll ever see, a legit hooker who in his era was unmatched as a wrestler and star as the NWA territory system was built on his back. Then you have special attractions like Andre and Taker.

So take your pick I guess lol.

[bullets]

Originally Posted by Metallo

This was a damn good Raw. Best in a while.

Hey, Pinky it would be great if the Rock N Wrestling Era inductee were Jake Roberts.

I just caught up on Raw and enjoyed it more than most episodes. I'm not sure how I feel about The Shield vs Cena and friends. It's a high profile match ,but also one that's meant to make Cena look strong heading into Mania.



I'm hopeful Jake will get inducted soon. Now would be a good time since he's doing well. I hate to say it , but you never know.

[Parker Wayne]

Originally Posted by Hunter Rider

I'm not sure exactly when the change came but I know by 89 WWF was bringing the full show for tours of Europe and Japan, the thing when Flair went overseas he went to defend the belt which was why he called himself the real world's champion, as the NWA wasn't so much a territory as it was the governing body.

When I said the NWA was a bigger draw I was alluding to the way that the NWA world champion worked all territories and was required to draw all over the US and internationally. Now given the stronghold of the NWA was the other side of the US from WWWF it may have played a part in Bruno not getting the nod to be the World champion, but he was never tested as a draw the way Harley Race and Ric Flair were.

When talking about the greatest it's a difficult thing because there are different factors and also the style of how wrestling is presented and the matches are worked has changed so vastly it's hard to compare.

I mean as a global draw Hogan is untouchable, as the biggest draw of the over-saturated modern era Austin is king, as far as territories go Bruno's 186 consecutive MSG sell-outs and 8 year run as champion is in a league of it's own. Ric Flair is the greatest World champion ever when you consider the definition of world champion, he drew money and had great matches with everybody who was anybody from one end of the world to the other. When it comes to in-ring performer Shawn Michaels is regarded as the best ever by most of his peers, most of the generation before him and most of the current generation, even people who hate him say he's the greatest worker ever. Lou Thez was the closest to the real deal as you'll ever see, a legit hooker who in his era was unmatched as a wrestler and star as the NWA territory system was built on his back. Then you have special attractions like Andre and Taker.

So take your pick I guess lol.

Good points. Honestly, I'd also include Bret Hart in there, even though things went south toward the end of his WWF career.

Then it becomes a whole nother argument when you include the Japanese wrestlers.

[Hunter Rider]

Originally Posted by Parker Wayne

Of course Trish would be there, she was my teen crush haha.

I liked Hogan in the 80s and his NWO run. Not a huge fan of his 90s stuff before NWO. With John Cena I can see how it got stale.

And how did I not mention Austin? Also Goldberg and Understaker goes on that list also along with having awesomely long entrances.

Trish, Lita and Mickie, the rest have to fight for spots.

I loved heel Hogan mainly because I was never a fan even as a kid, I didn't hate his stuff pre-92 but come 93 he was on my ****list and his heel run was great because it felt closer to the real Hogan at least as far as his business personality.

Always respected Taker, didn't like any of his matches much until 96 and am one of the few who liked him better as a biker than as a supernatural reaper. I still recall Goldberg's title win in 98, one of my favourite memories as a fan, but he's basically the Wizard of Oz, once the curtain was pulled back there was nothing to see.

[Parker Wayne]

I like your thinking with the Divas. I would have included Melina if she lasted longer with WWE.

This is my personal bias, I think with Taker he didn't really hit his stride until the late 90s during the Attitude Era. I watched a lot of the earlier matches because my cousin has the PPV collections, and he just felt cheesy to me (though the New Generation era is full of cheese). I honestly didn't like any of his matches until the cell match with Shawn Michaels.

About Hogan in the 90s, Wrestlemania IX says it all. That's something WWE would pull today with Cena.

[Hunter Rider]

Originally Posted by Parker Wayne

Good points. Honestly, I'd also include Bret Hart in there, even though things went south toward the end of his WWF career.

Then it becomes a whole nother argument when you include the Japanese wrestlers.

Which category would you place Bret in? He was my hero as a kid and even though he's a very bitter and self absorbed guy these days I still look back at his glory days pre-98 with great fondness, but he was never a big draw and while he was a great worker he isn't considered the best worker of all time by many.

Oh boy lol Baba drew loads of money as did Inoki, and then you have the 4 corners of heaven, Misawa, Kobashi, Taue and Kawada, they pioneered an incredible period of wrestling in AJPW and produced great matches and drew big money. Wrestling is so different in Japan though so it's hard to compare, as a top guy you aren't required to work a variety of styles and you also don't have to cut a promo as they treat it as a sport.

Kobashi was my guy and an argument can be made that he's the best ever from Japan, but many will say Misawa as he was the champion more often and also a great worker, although not as beloved as Kobashi.

Also there is Muta, he was a star in the late 80's and early 90's in NJPW as both a straight up face and a bizarre comic book style heel, pretty unique. Then he went bald and amazingly reinvented himself again as a colorful veteran showman and drew a ****load of money once again in what was known as Mutamania.

Speaking of Japan you then throw in the Funks, Dory was regarded as the better in one regard but no US wrestler including Hansen and Vader was as successful in Japan and Terry was, a pioneer of the deathmatch as well as a great wrestler and talker.

[Parker Wayne]

I think I'd put Bret in the top 10. I think he was a skilled worker, and while he wasn't the best at promos, I felt he was good enough. But as I said, I think his biggest advantage was his skill and learning at the Hart Dungeon.

I'll agree about Japan. It's hard to compare here and there. Inoki I felt was great, but Misawa was one of the best ones for me.

[Hunter Rider]

Originally Posted by Parker Wayne

I like your thinking with the Divas. I would have included Melina if she lasted longer with WWE.

This is my personal bias, I think with Taker he didn't really hit his stride until the late 90s during the Attitude Era. I watched a lot of the earlier matches because my cousin has the PPV collections, and he just felt cheesy to me (though the New Generation era is full of cheese). I honestly didn't like any of his matches until the cell match with Shawn Michaels.

About Hogan in the 90s, Wrestlemania IX says it all. That's something WWE would pull today with Cena.

I loved Melina as well, she was like a modern Sherri Martel, she could talk and work, you could see it even when she managed MNM, she made that team into stars.

I agree, Taker was hamstrung by his gimmick back in the day, he was told to wrestle in character and stalk his opponents around the ring, no sell everything and essentially use 3 spots and then go home, so in a sense that was great work because he matched his style to his character, but IMO it made for dull matches. Check his matches in 96 with Mankind, to me that is when Taker started showing what he could really do in the ring.

Haha! that is the moment I went from being ambivalent about Hogan, to hating him.

[bullets]

Originally Posted by Benstamania

Am I the only one that feels the Kane character needs to be retired? Nothing against Glenn Jacobs, the dude is apparently really nice... I just feel like Kanes been barely coasting along for years. I feel his last "good" hurrah was when he was unmasked... Since then... All down hill.

Kane is a good worker and perhaps underrated on the microphone. I think his job now is to help the younger guys. He's one of the last few veterans around. It might not be too long before he retires though.

Kane was really coasting before 2010. I never thought he would win a championship again. At least there was some redemption there , but the storyline was bad. It's almost a curse that all Kane's storylines go down hill. It's a shame because I think he could of been used much better. I enjoyed his teaming with Daniel bryan. The anger management session where Kane talks about his past is gold. It's a stupid angle , but it was worth it to me just for that moment.

Also he's back in the mask which is kind of like a reinvention. I don't think needs to retire yet. He could be used to make someone like Sheamus or Ryback look strong.

[Hunter Rider]

Originally Posted by Parker Wayne

I think I'd put Bret in the top 10. I think he was a skilled worker, and while he wasn't the best at promos, I felt he was good enough. But as I said, I think his biggest advantage was his skill and learning at the Hart Dungeon.

I'll agree about Japan. It's hard to compare here and there. Inoki I felt was great, but Misawa was one of the best ones for me.

I'd agree with him in the top ten workers list for sure, I just couldn't find a place for him in any category on the greatest of all time list. He was, and to this day remains, the best I've seen when it comes to delivering moves, his nickname "The Excellence of Execution" was no gimmick.

Yeah, they are totally different animals. Inoki is like a combination of Vince and Hogan lol. Misawa was incredible, his series with Kawada was as physical as any wrestling you'll ever see.