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Old 02-08-2013, 10:56 AM   #26
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

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Magik and Nick Fury Jr+Coulson.
This. Seriously, what was even the point of the latter two?

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Old 02-08-2013, 11:12 AM   #27
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

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What are you talking about, it being an excuse for the "90s black outfit"? That had been around awhile before Brock showed up and had absolutely nothing to do with Venom.
Mann! being cool in the early 80's 90's meant being darker and wearing black Superman did it Iron man did it! it was the thing to change your rags to all Black and what is this? the question is who do wish was never created not i dont like your choices and refute your claim! VENOM SUCKS!!

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Old 02-08-2013, 11:25 AM   #28
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I was being facetious.
I know.

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This. Seriously, what was even the point of the latter two?
To cater to the movie crowd turned comic fan....if they even exist.

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Old 02-08-2013, 11:55 AM   #29
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

None of them. Smart writers don't pretend characters never existed. Smart writers do something clever with them. There isn't a single "******" Marvel character who couldn't be really cool and interesting if given the right twist.

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Old 02-08-2013, 12:06 PM   #30
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

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I was being facetious.
Damn. Someone beat me to it .

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Old 02-08-2013, 12:11 PM   #31
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

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Mann! being cool in the early 80's 90's meant being darker and wearing black Superman did it Iron man did it! it was the thing to change your rags to all Black and what is this? the question is who do wish was never created not i dont like your choices and refute your claim! VENOM SUCKS!!
This is a forum... for discussion.

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Old 02-08-2013, 12:13 PM   #32
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

Most of the joke characters like Squirl girl, the GLA, and Slapstick

The Sentry, Daken, Red She-Hulk, Fury Jr., Coulson, and Triathlon (easily the worst thing about Busiek's Avenger's run)

I really don't get the hate for Venom. The character has been great since 2006! Especially the Remender's "Agent Venom"...

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Old 02-08-2013, 12:27 PM   #33
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none of them. Smart writers don't pretend characters never existed. Smart writers do something clever with them. There isn't a single "******" marvel character who couldn't be really cool and interesting if given the right twist.
qtf

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Old 02-08-2013, 12:29 PM   #34
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Most of the joke characters like Squirl girl, the GLA, and Slapstick


People who don't love Squirrel Girl and the Great Laves Avengers make Santa cry.

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Old 02-08-2013, 12:38 PM   #35
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People who don't love Squirrel Girl and the Great Laves Avengers make Santa cry.
They might be okay if they stick to their own titles but Squirl Girl had no place in New Avengers and Slapstick was horribly wrong for Avengers: The Initiative.

... and Santa can cry all he wants.

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Old 02-08-2013, 01:29 PM   #36
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

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None of them. Smart writers don't pretend characters never existed. Smart writers do something clever with them. There isn't a single "******" Marvel character who couldn't be really cool and interesting if given the right twist.
Agreed. Even with characters I like, they have massive room to grow.

Case in point:

-I've always loved Rhino, great and fun thug character. Then comes the storyline where he's finally just...so...freakin' tired of getting pummeled and mocked by Spidey. Guy finally gets arrested, displays incredible good behaviour and wants to settle down and have a beautiful normal life. The conflict is because of his temper and his incredibly hard to ignore past. He pushes forward and is happy.

Then a nut who wants to take his place ruins his life, and because he listened to Spidey's advice, he's truly alone now (his beloved mother finally died years ago and now his wife is murdered right before his eyes and he can do nothing to help her. He feels even worse since due to his invulnerability, he's left alive.) He kills the perpetrator and continues on a downward spiral that supposedly leads to his death.


-Venom: I loved him from the start. I was drawn in by the design and stayed for the interesting story. His motivations are controversial, but I found that they worked for a while. Plus I liked the concept of a hero doing his job and stopping the bad guy leads to a normal dude, not even close to being a villain or mad scientist, losing everything and going off the deep end. Plus the idea that was later introduced. His twisted sense of morality; he would be a villain to Spider-man, but wouldn't hesitate to cripple a mugger who hurt a little old lady. I always liked the personal nature of his beef. He wasn't a guy who wanted to rob banks or take over the world. If he got his way, he'd most likely become a "hero" in his own right.

I was a fan of Lethal Protector and some of the 90s stuff, but it was clear to me that some things were going south. Fast forward to Anti-Venom and you now take a look at the overall nature of Brock and it makes for an interesting fall and redemption story.

He was a guy trying to do good to get approval from his dad and get his existence acknowledged. That's selfish. He then becomes a monster and blames all his problems on a selfless and long-suffering saint of a man. He rises and falls time and time again until he's finally at death's door. During this time, he reviews his life, grows up and accepts that HE is the problem and decides to do the humble thing and help the homeless in the time he has left. He gets a "miraculous" second chance and without going crazy decides to stay helping people out of the goodness of his own heart. Gargan shows up and changes things forever.

Transformed and slightly reverting to his old self, he battles old foes, but then, after witnessing Spidey saving an old man, he FINALLY gets it and spends more time doing good for the sake of doing good rather than self gain. He is ostracized and becomes a fugitive from the law, but has no regrets since he, in his heart did good. He then saves a young woman, but gets her into trouble; his old anger flairs up, but rather than the anger being a selfish and mindless bit of carnage, he's fighting to save someone precious to him. He ultimately gives up his greatest ability; healing, to save an entire city. His story seemingly over, he's embraced in the media as a hero, and Mr. Fantastic, a man who in the past would have been in his path, embraces him.

His future is going in a new direction and we'll see what happens with that, but to me. This is why I give characters a chance. Venom had some absolutely terrible times, but with time, Brock and the suit are doing great. The new Venom series is compelling and I'm eagerly awaiting every issue. Brock has had a great bit of depth given to him as of late, and while he looks to be becoming a villain, I trust Bunn to give him some depth and reasoning for his actions. He's also been hinting at something big in Brock and Flash's futures, thus this may be a temporary bit of villainy.

In the end, keeping characters around can do a lot of good. You just need a good writer. Look at Mr. Freeze before the 90s animated series and after. Pretty interesting, I have to say.

Sorry for wall of text hah.

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Old 02-08-2013, 01:59 PM   #37
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

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This is a forum... for discussion.
sorry I know we haven't been cordially introduced but Black Vulcan doesn't come here to discuss or debate.I am sure there are others who might though( I see it leads sometimes to* fights plus it can give you carpal tunnel syndrome!) Black vulcan just come here to say I like this I don't like that! That costume sucks and if that chick was real I would like to.. ahem... went off on a tangent. I am fully aware that the black costume existed during" secret wars" with spider man!( that scene of Hulk lifting a mountain is still my fav!)...oops went off on a tangent again!.. anyway I agree Nick Fury jr and coulson and most movie characters suck!

*black vulcan believes we should make love and not war...at least that's what people in the 70's believed hehe

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Old 02-08-2013, 02:02 PM   #38
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

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Agreed. Even with characters I like, they have massive room to grow.

Case in point:

-I've always loved Rhino, great and fun thug character. Then comes the storyline where he's finally just...so...freakin' tired of getting pummeled and mocked by Spidey. Guy finally gets arrested, displays incredible good behaviour and wants to settle down and have a beautiful normal life. The conflict is because of his temper and his incredibly hard to ignore past. He pushes forward and is happy.

Then a nut who wants to take his place ruins his life, and because he listened to Spidey's advice, he's truly alone now (his beloved mother finally died years ago and now his wife is murdered right before his eyes and he can do nothing to help her. He feels even worse since due to his invulnerability, he's left alive.) He kills the perpetrator and continues on a downward spiral that supposedly leads to his death.


-Venom: I loved him from the start. I was drawn in by the design and stayed for the interesting story. His motivations are controversial, but I found that they worked for a while. Plus I liked the concept of a hero doing his job and stopping the bad guy leads to a normal dude, not even close to being a villain or mad scientist, losing everything and going off the deep end. Plus the idea that was later introduced. His twisted sense of morality; he would be a villain to Spider-man, but wouldn't hesitate to cripple a mugger who hurt a little old lady. I always liked the personal nature of his beef. He wasn't a guy who wanted to rob banks or take over the world. If he got his way, he'd most likely become a "hero" in his own right.

I was a fan of Lethal Protector and some of the 90s stuff, but it was clear to me that some things were going south. Fast forward to Anti-Venom and you now take a look at the overall nature of Brock and it makes for an interesting fall and redemption story.

He was a guy trying to do good to get approval from his dad and get his existence acknowledged. That's selfish. He then becomes a monster and blames all his problems on a selfless and long-suffering saint of a man. He rises and falls time and time again until he's finally at death's door. During this time, he reviews his life, grows up and accepts that HE is the problem and decides to do the humble thing and help the homeless in the time he has left. He gets a "miraculous" second chance and without going crazy decides to stay helping people out of the goodness of his own heart. Gargan shows up and changes things forever.

Transformed and slightly reverting to his old self, he battles old foes, but then, after witnessing Spidey saving an old man, he FINALLY gets it and spends more time doing good for the sake of doing good rather than self gain. He is ostracized and becomes a fugitive from the law, but has no regrets since he, in his heart did good. He then saves a young woman, but gets her into trouble; his old anger flairs up, but rather than the anger being a selfish and mindless bit of carnage, he's fighting to save someone precious to him. He ultimately gives up his greatest ability; healing, to save an entire city. His story seemingly over, he's embraced in the media as a hero, and Mr. Fantastic, a man who in the past would have been in his path, embraces him.

His future is going in a new direction and we'll see what happens with that, but to me. This is why I give characters a chance. Venom had some absolutely terrible times, but with time, Brock and the suit are doing great. The new Venom series is compelling and I'm eagerly awaiting every issue. Brock has had a great bit of depth given to him as of late, and while he looks to be becoming a villain, I trust Bunn to give him some depth and reasoning for his actions. He's also been hinting at something big in Brock and Flash's futures, thus this may be a temporary bit of villainy.

In the end, keeping characters around can do a lot of good. You just need a good writer. Look at Mr. Freeze before the 90s animated series and after. Pretty interesting, I have to say.

Sorry for wall of text hah.
I think the biggest problem with Venom is that he's always been depicted as being either very clearly villainous with no goodness in him, or a pure Punisher type who just doesn't like Spider-Man. No one's actually gone for the full on middle ground with him. He can be someone who has a very strong and rigid set of ethics that he adheres to while also being obsessed with destroying Peter Parker's life and torturing him and the people around him. That kind of cognitive dissonance is interesting and hasn't really been explored with him.

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Old 02-08-2013, 11:09 PM   #39
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

I think Remnder established the middle ground with him nicely..generally agree with you though.

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Old 02-09-2013, 08:50 AM   #40
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

I find it strange that so many people are mentioning the Sentry. Yeah, Bendis flubbed on him but for him to have never been created would eliminate the completely astounding mini that Jenkins introduced him with. That story is still, to this day, one of my top 5, maybe even top 3, comic book stories. Bendis just didn't handle him well.

And my pick for characters to go the way of the Parker marriage.... Emma Frost. "No bad characters, just bad writers" my foot. I've seen tons of writers write that character over the years and I have liked her for a grand total of about 5 pages.

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Old 02-09-2013, 08:53 AM   #41
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

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They might be okay if they stick to their own titles but Squirl Girl had no place in New Avengers and Slapstick was horribly wrong for Avengers: The Initiative.

... and Santa can cry all he wants.
I'd like to officially declare that SW is on crack! Squirrel Girl was fantastic in New Avengers. She wasn't a member of the team and was only a supporting role, but her as Danielle Cage's nanny was great. She had some good moments as a result without being overplayed as the "newest Avenger" and it worked out nicely. Her Fear Itself issues were some of only real good comics to come out of that event. Her fighting to protect Danielle so Luke and Jessica could help out the rest of the world was great. I loved it.

Slapstick on Avengers: The Initiative... yeah that was wierd at first, but I got used to it.

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Old 02-09-2013, 09:39 AM   #42
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

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I find it strange that so many people are mentioning the Sentry. Yeah, Bendis flubbed on him but for him to have never been created would eliminate the completely astounding mini that Jenkins introduced him with. That story is still, to this day, one of my top 5, maybe even top 3, comic book stories. Bendis just didn't handle him well.

And my pick for characters to go the way of the Parker marriage.... Emma Frost. "No bad characters, just bad writers" my foot. I've seen tons of writers write that character over the years and I have liked her for a grand total of about 5 pages.
Yeah but that actually makes things worse when someone ruins the character so quickly.

Sentry is a ruined character as a hero, it's gonna take an act of god to save him.

In some ways I thought the Skrull-Vell concept could have been really cool..but it was just ruined.

When that happens I end up regretting the whole thing.

I actually thought Slapstick got interesting in A:TI I'd rather not talk about those guys though as it just get's me worked up about the non-use of the A:TI characters...loved that book.

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Old 02-09-2013, 10:02 AM   #43
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I'd like to officially declare that SW is on crack! Squirrel Girl was fantastic in New Avengers. She wasn't a member of the team and was only a supporting role, but her as Danielle Cage's nanny was great. She had some good moments as a result without being overplayed as the "newest Avenger" and it worked out nicely. Her Fear Itself issues were some of only real good comics to come out of that event. Her fighting to protect Danielle so Luke and Jessica could help out the rest of the world was great. I loved it.

Slapstick on Avengers: The Initiative... yeah that was wierd at first, but I got used to it.
Agree to disagree. All comic fans should expect a degree of cheesiness - but when the character in question is, quite literally, a joke, the tone of the series can be absolutely destroyed. I can't take anything seriously that involves a chick with a squirrel tail who can talk to small mammals. That and she can take Wolverine in a fight? I'm completely ambivalent about Wolverine (unless he's in Remender's X-Force) but there's no way he's being taken out by Squirrel Girl.

Look, I'm actually a semi-fan of Bendis. I enjoyed (most) of Volume I of New Avengers. But that nanny-selection issue of Volume II was one of the single worst Avengers issues I've ever read. Squirrel Girl? Bendis was the one on crack.

And I maintain my stance on Slapstick being the worst part of an otherwise fantastic series.

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Old 02-09-2013, 10:27 AM   #44
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

Agree to disagree then, because that second volume of new Avengers was the height of his Avengers run. It was simply fantastic, and adding supporting characters like Squirrel Girl and Wong aided in that

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Old 02-09-2013, 10:44 AM   #45
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To cater to the movie crowd turned comic fan....if they even exist.
I think it's worst than that. The way i see it marvel comics is now only a test ground at best, spawning grounds of potential trademark and copyrighted hit-list characters for the next movie.
At worst it is movie publicity disguised in the original magazine format, it' s much easier to turn comic fans into movie crowd after all.


As for characters all having potential: i agree. Even clones if pushed away from the initial copy can become autonomous concepts, ain't happening any time soon though.

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Old 02-09-2013, 10:48 AM   #46
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

Let's see, I agreed with the first post Venom, then of course Carnage. Never cared for the Punisher, and I agree Apocalypse never worked for me.

Here's one that's different… The Beyonder, I absolutely hated "secret wars"

The mid-80s on was a sad time for me, "my heroes don't kill".

Venom to me is just an wet dream for frustrated adolescents. The whole slobbering tongue thing is just so over the top


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Old 02-09-2013, 10:53 AM   #47
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

95% of them.

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Old 02-09-2013, 03:28 PM   #48
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

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As for characters all having potential: i agree. Even clones if pushed away from the initial copy can become autonomous concepts, ain't happening any time soon though.
Scarlet Spider's a prime example of that. He was a huge hit until Marvel went a horrible direction with him. When he was just Scarlet Spider, the clone of Peter Parker, he was awesome and people loved him. He was a major underdog. And then Marvel tried the switcheroo and made him the original Peter Parker and then he became Spider-Man and all-in-all it was just too much and the character suffered for it. I still think that if they would have just continued on with him as the clone he could have been going strong to this day. Kaine also shows that a clone can have legs, though the oversaturation of clones at the time hurt him for years and years.

Superboy is another example of a clone that lasts.

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Old 02-09-2013, 07:13 PM   #49
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

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Agree to disagree. All comic fans should expect a degree of cheesiness - but when the character in question is, quite literally, a joke, the tone of the series can be absolutely destroyed. I can't take anything seriously that involves a chick with a squirrel tail who can talk to small mammals. That and she can take Wolverine in a fight? I'm completely ambivalent about Wolverine (unless he's in Remender's X-Force) but there's no way he's being taken out by Squirrel Girl.
Whimsy and competence aren't mutually exclusive.

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Old 02-09-2013, 07:32 PM   #50
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

Theres a lot of em. None of them are huge characters. Thank god.

Specifically? Franklin Richards.

I've never liked X-Men to be a part of the MU. Thats not to say I dislike X-Men, I just don't think they fit properly into the universe as a whole and Franklin Richards is the biggest example of this. Or at least the biggest proof of this. His parents are Fantastic right? They are superheroes and they have unique powers. Wrong. Because of their son and mutants in general, those who are legitimately special become less special.

Which, is totally fine with me. Because I'd rather just keep them separate. The X-Men universe is great! It is a lot of fun and I love so many of the characters, I just prefer to pretend that the universes don't mix. Franklin Richards makes that difficult.

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