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Old 02-13-2013, 04:03 PM   #76
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Default Re: Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

I liked this for what it was. The first moment I turned the page and seen what was under those lids I was like OH ****!!! but then all I could say was "There's no way he actually did it" and low and behold. He didn't. I wish Alfred would've been blinded or something would have happened but oh well. Guess Mr Snyder is lacking in the testicle department. The only good part was Bats trying to tell Joker he figured out who he is and Joker flipping out. Then, Bruce trying to talk to him in Arkham was cool. I liked how each member of the Bat-fam blew Bruce off at the end too. Like he really got under their skin. Batman and Robin was on some ******** though. Whole issue nothing but dreams?!?! I don't give a **** how symbolic or revealing they are this isn't ****ing Sopranos. Keep the dreams for cartoons or something. Seriously wouldn't have even picked this issue up if I'd have known

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Old 02-13-2013, 05:08 PM   #77
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Default Re: Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

Liked the conclusion but it was a bit anti-climactic.

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Old 02-13-2013, 06:19 PM   #78
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Default Re: Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

I don't think it was anti-climatic, it was exactly what Joker promised, he promised to kill the family and though not literally he did. He got to each of the family members and messed them up, I'm most interested in seeing what happens to Dick because he invested everything in Haley's Circus and now its gone because of the Joker.

The only thing I didn't get was the fly on the screen.

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Old 02-13-2013, 06:52 PM   #79
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Default Re: Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

You cant deny though...the way Snyder was impeccably building this up, the way the tension was just swelling throughout the previous chapters...you cant help but expect a "bang" at the end of the story.

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Old 02-13-2013, 06:53 PM   #80
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Default Re: Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

I thought this ending was a little weak, but I think it's pretty clear that Snyder has more plans for the Joker.

I'd like to see what Snyder has in mind for that radioactive isotope he put into all the family's blood. If he gets to stay on the book long enough.

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Old 02-13-2013, 07:04 PM   #81
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Default Re: Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

It was dumb that he not only was able to trick then into thinking their own faces were cut off, but also got into their heads enough that they turned their back on Bruce. It made absolute no sense considering what we already know about these characters. They're stronger than that. They're smarter than that. And I'm not getting sick and tired of Snyder having to dumb down characters because he apparently isn't smart enough to write them intelligently.

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Old 02-13-2013, 07:10 PM   #82
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Default Re: Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

All this story made me really want to do is go back and read some of the best Joker stories. The No Man's Land one in particular.

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Old 02-13-2013, 07:24 PM   #83
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Default Re: Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

OK so in the end the family now wants to keep their distance from Batman. Here we go again. At least I'm finally done buying this book.

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Old 02-13-2013, 07:35 PM   #84
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Default Re: Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

Well, glad to see I'm not alone in being letdown in the ending. It just sucks because everything else about this story was soooooooo good.

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Old 02-13-2013, 08:21 PM   #85
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Default Re: Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

Okay, read Batman #17. Overall, I didn’t think Death of the Family was a bad story. However, with regards to this particular issue serving as a conclusion to the story? I am in total agreement with those who describe this issue as a massively disappointing let-down with no real pay off whatsoever. And this is coming from someone who regards Scott Snyder as one of today’s best comic book writers.

Sure, Greg Capullo’s art was fantastic as always, and I thought the beginning of the issue was especially intense. But if you really take a closer look, all this is story did was recycle and reuse aspects of the Batman and Joker dynamic that were already there, and whatever additions Snyder attempted to add were not only needlessly bungled, but, IMO, missed the point.

For example, we finally learn why the Joker had his face removed just so he could wear it like a mask–”So [Batman] can see that he smiles on the inside as he does on the outside” i.e. that he doesn’t hide who he really is. Except we readers already knew this on the simple basis that the Joker looking like a creepy clown was not a disguise, that this is what makes him terrifying. His wearing a “mask” made of his own flesh actually undermines this very point that the Joker makes.

Second, the Joker challenging Batman over why he doesn’t just kill him, saying his reasons for not doing so are bullcrap, with Snyder suggesting this is partly true when Bruce tells Alfred that if he does kill the Joker that someone worse will take his place. This is of particular annoyance to me because we already know the answer to the question of “Why doesn’t Batman just kill the Joker?” (and not just because of the conventions of serialized fiction). Anyone who has read Alan Moore’s The Killing Joke and Frank Miller’s The Dark Knight Returns, or have seen Christopher Nolan’s The Dark Knight have had this question answered: The Joker believes that anyone, when properly pushed, is capable of losing control and abandoning their morals, rules and principles, thus saying this makes those morals, rules and principles nothing but “bad jokes.” Batman, however, refuses to lose control, standing by his code to never resort to committing murder no matter what. Because Batman knows full well that if he consciously takes a person’s life, including the Joker’s own life, then it “proves” that the Joker was “right all along.” And guess what? The Joker also knows this. That’s why he “loves” Batman because he sees him as a challenge. Even although he’s insane, wouldn’t mistake Batman’s refusal to kill him as a sign of “love” as he claims here.

Then there’s the point about how even though the Joker knows Batman is really Bruce Wayne, he doesn’t really care because he knows Batman is who Bruce really is–again something we already figured out beforehand, especially if one has read Grant Morrison’s Batman R.I.P. Except Snyder adds the utterly ridiculous revelation in that Bruce willingly revealed himself as Batman to the Joker at Arkham Asylum years ago, which just makes Bruce out be a over-confident moron. Same with the revelation that the Joker’s biggest fear is that Batman has figured out his real name, which completely contradicts previous depictions that the Joker doesn’t really care about his own past or his real name. After all, if the Joker doesn’t care about who Batman really is, why should he care if Batman really knows?

As for the resolution to the story? The Joker “dies” from falling from a great height even though we never actually see the body and Batman doesn’t bother to go down and investigate the bottom of the chasm to see if the Joker is really dead? How convenient! Oh, the Bat Family is bitter at Bruce for keeping such a crucial secret from them when he should’ve trusted them and told them what it was beforehand? Just like every other conclusion to virtually every major Batman event in last two decades? That’s the real reason why the ending is disappointing and why people are saying “nothing happened. Because what was sold as a Joker story to end all Joker stories is nothing but an overrated, over-hyped cliché.

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Old 02-13-2013, 09:39 PM   #86
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Default Re: Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

I'm really surprised at what i'm hearing. You all really didn't like the ending? I've heard some pretty....interesting excuses as to why this isn't good so i'll try and say it why it is a good ending.

Be mindful that this is my opinion, I've read Batman comics for years and am full-versed on his mythology, I'm not trying to disrepect anyone just trying to bring some clarity.

CConn: How was dumb that the bat-family got tricked into believing their faces were gone? I believed it the moment I saw it, I couldn't but think "What kind of tech will allow their faces to be reattached?". It has nothing to do with strength or smarts when you're dealing with a psychopath. If anything that's what this arc proved. That no matter how prepared you are, how strong you are, how good you are, sometimes someone will have your number and be able to outhink you. He didn't dumb down the characters at all, he played upon what happened in the previous issues and in the tie-ins to create a believeable scenario. They see that the others faces are bandaged and covered in blood, the Joker had his own face removed why wouldn't they believe he would do the same to them? Damian, the toughest kid in the DCU, was afraid that his face was gone and asked Batman how he looked, that's believable, even Batman was suprised when it was a bluff.

Kguillou: I didn't really want a bang, that's not what the Batman/Joker stories are supposed to be about, they're about proving a point. The Killing Joke was about proving that one bad day can turn anyone into a guy like the Joker, Arkham Asylum was about proving that it's Batman's true home. Death of the Family was to prove that Batman needed the Joker and the Joker alone. That the family made him weak. I didn't expect a huge fistfight or the death of a family member or the batcave blowing up, I want good dialogue, good progression of the characters. And that's what I got.

stillanerd: I understand what you're saying, really I do, but you're not thinking about some of this in the right perspective. Mainly the part about the Joker and his past. Part of the enigma of the Joker is that we don't truly know who is or was. You say he doesn't care about his past, but The Killing Joke shows that he does, one bad day and all that remember? Second just he doesn't care doesn't mean he wants everyone to know. Especially Batman. It's just like the Riddler said once, "when a riddle is known by all it's useless", Batman is a master detective yet he could (until now) never figure out who Joker was. That drove him crazy not being able to figure that out. And Joker used that against him, so when Batman said he knew it scared Joker, his biggest secret was out, the playing field was level for the first time. And as for the Bat-family hating Bruce that hasn't happened in this scale in recent tenure. The Bat-Family is famous for always being there for one another, Battle for the Cowl, Hush, and others showed that they had each others back. Then its revealed that there greatest nemesis may have known about them all along? Of course they should feel betrayed, especially after what happens because of that. And i'm sorry but I couldn't help but laugh when after the battle was over and the Joker had "lost" and the Bat-Family had split and Bruce was all alone at the Batcomputer that the final word we see is "HA". That's poetry.

i'm not trying to prove anything here, I'm just trying to show another viewpoint. Death of the Family was meant as a battle between Batman and Joker, a culmination of a long and bloody history. And I believe it did that. Did it have epic moments? Yes. Did it a resound effect on the Bat-books? Yes, and time should prove that. Did we get insight into both Batman and Joker that we hadn't had before? Yes depending on what you've read.

We should appreciate this for it is, not for what we wanted it to be.

I thank you for your time.

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Old 02-13-2013, 10:03 PM   #87
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Default Re: Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

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Originally Posted by BlackMagicWolf View Post

i'm not trying to prove anything here, I'm just trying to show another viewpoint. Death of the Family was meant as a battle between Batman and Joker, a culmination of a long and bloody history. And I believe it did that. Did it have epic moments? Yes. Did it a resound effect on the Bat-books? Yes, and time should prove that. Did we get insight into both Batman and Joker that we hadn't had before? Yes depending on what you've read.

We should appreciate this for it is, not for what we wanted it to be.

I thank you for your time.
Your definition of epic moments is incredibly weak.

And DotF showed us this battle between Batman and the Joker, but it showed us absolutely nothing new. The "insight" that we got into the relationship between the two was either a) a rehash of what we've seen for the past 20 years or b) contradictory to what we've seen for the past 20 years. Somehow, Snyder managed to do both, which stillanerd addressed in his post.

If we appreciate any story for what it is instead of what it could have been, we'd all be in love with a bunch of ****** stories.

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Old 02-13-2013, 10:05 PM   #88
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Default Re: Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

Very well written, BlackMagicWolf and to be quite honest i agree with everything your saying. BUT, I don't know, i think I speak for a lot of us when I say that the way this story was built up, the tension being built, the slow loosening of batman's grip on his sanity, it all felt like it was building to an absolutely terrifying crescendo.

Look, I'm happy the bat family is alright, i was relieved when it was revealed nothing happened to them. But in that final scene between Bats and Joker, Batman is finally at his point where "Enough is ENOUGH". I didn't know what to expect and i wasn't expecting Bats to actually kill the Joker or anything, BUT i was expecting something...again, terrifying to happen. Either to Joker or Batman. Throughout 3/4's of this issue my pulse was racing and i kept thinking to myself "Ok, Snyder, your doing it. You're doing it! Now just bring it home, baby, just bring it home! Knock it out of the park!". And with those thoughts racing in my head i just couldn't help but feel like "that's it?" when the joker fell down the cave and ended like soo many other joker stories preceding it.

Again, I will emphasize that I GREATLY enjoyed this story on a whole. Snyder's an excellent writer and he really did an amazing job of building the Joker up to be this unstoppable force of nature that no one, not even Batman can tame. His return to Gotham felt like an event, like a tsunami that was destroying everything in it's path. I didn't expect Batman to finally end the Joker, but i was hoping that maybe this time, this time, Batman would say "enough is ENOUGH" and resort to more drastic measures to put a stop to Joker. Admittedly, I don't know what that could have been, but I just could not help but feel the ending we got didn't really live up to what the preceding issues made it out to be.

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Old 02-13-2013, 10:24 PM   #89
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Default Re: Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

Scarecrow King: Fine I shall define my epic moments, when we all thought that the Bat-family had become faceless, when Batman set them on fire, the final showdown with Joker, the arkham scene, and the "HA" revelation at the end. As for the second point I have to bring to your attention that.....i haven't read 20 years of Batman comics. And I'm pretty sure plenty of people haven't either. I came to Batman through the animated series and the movies. And not once did I ever think of Joker being in love with Batman or thinking of him as his king. That's new to me, and the point of the New 52 is to bring old and new together to a generation that hasn't read the Killing Joke or Arkham Asylum or No Man's Land etc. And you misinterpreted my last point. I don't mean we should appreciate all stories for what they are, I mean we should appreciate this story for what it was broadcast as, I heard Scott Snyder say that this was meant as a Joker story and that this was about him bringing Batman back to what he should be, alone. And in that case he did what he wanted. And for the record if we judged every comic on what it could have been....we would hate just about every comic we would read cause we all want them to be better in one way or another.

kguillou: Thank you for your honesty and I understand where you are coming from. And I was with you when I was feeling that this was the moment when Batman might cross the line...but that's just it you see, if he crosses the line he's not Batman. He has his one rule and he sticks to it, and maybe he doesn't kill out of fear or something else but he doesn't do it and that's what makes him Batman. And the ending could've been something else, but I don't know what it could've been. The Joker was soundly defeated, he had his last mystery revealed (in whisper) by Batman. In his eyes he became just like every other Bat-villain. Known. Batman knows who he is now and the Joker can't stand it. True the buildup was intense and maybe it was a little bit of a cheat, I honestly was expecting parts of Alfred to be on the food trays cause in my mind it was the only thing in my mind that made sense and then Snyder pulled a U-turn and did something else that's what made it exciting. And as for the impact we're going to feel that for books to come. This isn't over by a longshot, and that's what makes this great.

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Old 02-13-2013, 11:17 PM   #90
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Default Re: Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

Having dropped the book at chapter 2 of Death In The Family due to how overwritten and tired I thought it to be, I'm rather intrigued by the notion of The Joker feeling threatened by Batman knowing his identity. It demeans him and all he stands for. The Joker may think of himself as something larger, as an agent of chaos, a force of nature. But he's still a man. And an identity only makes that more so. And it implies to me that Bruce is kind of in tune with the fact that, despite being a symbol himself, he too is still also a person. I suppose decades worth of previous Joker stories may show that the Joker doesn't give a crap either way, that regardless of who he was, he's gone beyond that and turned into something else. But I also suppose that when you boil it all down, he's still a human being. It's an interesting aspect to dig into.

But I'm not reading anything Snyder's written on Batman since issue 13 and nothing on Swamp Thing since issue 12 and I've been bitterly disappointed with every issue since 7 on both titles so my opinion probably isn't too valid.

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Old 02-13-2013, 11:53 PM   #91
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Default Re: Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

This is probably the first material I've read from Snyder that I've been disappointed in. It wasn't actually bad--but it was just a retread of all the major Joker themes present in any Joker story, except told really slowly and really obviously. The lack of new material or an interesting perspective on the old material bothered me, and it was really just issue after issue of the same points being touched on.

The only thing that piqued my interest was the Joker's identity (and even that isn't new material), but then Snyder pulled it out from under our noses, so there went that. Again, not a bad story--just not a special one, as it was billed. This was just any Joker story, but with more self importance.

Also I don't know why the Joker wouldn't actually cut their faces off.

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Old 02-14-2013, 12:54 AM   #92
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Default Re: Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

Probably for the same reasons the Skrull didn't actually kill the replicated/cloned heroes. Contrived status quo/plot excuse.

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Old 02-14-2013, 12:56 AM   #93
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Default Re: Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

Pretty anti-climactic, but at least he didn't do anything desperate. Didn't really tell us anything we didn't already know about Joker or Batman as characters. Still had fun with the arc, though. Looking forward to next one.

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Old 02-14-2013, 01:13 AM   #94
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Default Re: Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

Batman 17 was just alright. Disappointing finale with some good parts. The first half was quite good but the actual ending....meh at best. The four parts I really loved though were:

Joker saying "You want me to kill him. And him. And him. And him [Jason] (again)."

Batman's bluff about knowing Joker's identity.

Joker freaking out at the idea of knowing his own identity before being Joker.

And the final 'ha'.

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Old 02-14-2013, 02:07 AM   #95
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Default Re: Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

Batman and robin this week was just a filler issue, but a rather good one. The evolution of Bruce and Damien's relationship has been so well done between Morrison and Tomasi.

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Old 02-14-2013, 02:19 AM   #96
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Default Re: Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

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Batman and robin this week was just a filler issue, but a rather good one. The evolution of Bruce and Damien's relationship has been so well done between Morrison and Tomasi.
One thing to note is that it's very different than the solicitation said. Makes me think they changed it so that they got one more really Damian-focused issue in before his death.


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Old 02-14-2013, 04:44 AM   #97
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Default Re: Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

Death of the Family has more potential consequences than any meaningless character death every would have brought to the table.

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Old 02-14-2013, 04:52 AM   #98
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Default Re: Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

the whole DOTF was really average, and this issue is not different. It brings nothing new to the table. It was hyped as the definitive Joker story, and it was average at best.

The ending was more than expected, and it was weak. But my biggest gripe with Snyder, is that he's always stating the obvious. A lot of writer are not that subtle, but by making his characters claim loudly what everyone already know, he doesn't make them more interesting, he undermines their potential.

For instance, was it a bright idea to make Bruce say that the Joker doesn't care for his identity? No, it isn't. It crippled the Joker from his aura. A lot of people did a way better job at showing how Joker doesn't care for the man under the mask. Same goes for Bruce considering Alfred as his father. Not only it's not subtle, but it's not gripping as well.

I didn't hate this arc. There were some good ideas, like how Bats played with Joker in the climax. But it was nothing special, and it certainly isn't worth all this hype.

It doesn't bother me at all that nobody dies. Actually, I think it was one of the good point of this story. But in the end, everything felt forced, and I really can't believe the family would turn her back on Bruce like that.

On the other hand, B&R 17 was awesome. It was one of these issues that is more about character development than moving the story forward, but it was really touching.

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Old 02-14-2013, 09:19 AM   #99
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Default Re: Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

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Death of the Family has more potential consequences than any meaningless character death every would have brought to the table.
But it's all based on a forced and poorly done event/situation that will render any consequences as hokey and illogical.

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Old 02-14-2013, 09:21 AM   #100
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Default Re: Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

The only bad thing about B&R is that it has to ride on the coattails of the main title. If it could just do its own thing, I think it'd be much better.

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