Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - - - - - Part 14

[nite-owl]

So is Alfred blind or what?

[Léo Ho Tep]

let's put it that way: nothing will change for Alfred after DOTF. And apart from Bruce being alone again, like in the war games epilogue, there is nothing new.

PS: your sig is priceless.

[kguillou]

I'm almost starting to think that maybe we've all just become conditioned to every single comic story being "earth shattering" and "status quo altering" and "nothing will ever be the same!!". Maybe that's why we feel let down by this.

[Motown Marvel]

Or maybe Snyder just doesn't have the imagination worthy of such stories.

[Mr. Dent]

Originally Posted by CConn

But it's all based on a forced and poorly done event/situation that will render any consequences as hokey and illogical.

It was not forced nor poorly done in my opinion...which doesn't make sense in the context of a comic book story. How can a storyline be forced? It's the Joker, when he shows up he's going to cause chaos. Furthermore, you're going to have to explain to me how anything in this plot could make the consequences hokey or illogical. What happened is quite logical and cerebral and I don't really see how you can argue with that.

[CConn]

Not at all. It's that this story was built up from the very beginning that it was going to be this giant, be all end all to the Joker, and change everything forever.

Meanwhile for months, all us sensible ones did was whine that we didn't need some big be all end all to for the Joker.

But ultimately, rather than just tell a solid Joker story, Snyder (in the comic) built up all of this tension and suspense that something with some finality was going to happen and it just....didn't. It's the literary equivalent of blue ball.

[CConn]

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

It was not forced nor poorly done in my opinion...which doesn't make sense in the context of a comic book story. How can a storyline be forced? It's the Joker, when he shows up he's going to cause chaos. Furthermore, you're going to have to explain to me how anything in this plot could make the consequences hokey or illogical. What happened is quite logical and cerebral and I don't really see how you can argue with that.

I'm not really interested in debating it too thoroughly, but as I said before...

1). It was downright dumb to write that all of the sidekicks thought their faces had been cut off.

2). What Joker did to them wasn't nearly enough for them to cause them all to have PTSD in those final pages.

It's just stupid. The entire logic behind Joker even being able to shake the foundations of the Bat-Family without even harming anyone is senseless. These people have suffered multiple deaths at the hands of the Joker, and still have gone on. Him doing some performance piece on them to **** with Bruce's head should have extremely little affect.

And to think that that should have "lasting implications" is equally vapid. Again, if he actually characterized the characters like they should be and have been for years now, they'd shrug it off in about a day and move on.

[antsman41]

Originally Posted by CConn

I'm not really interested in debating it too thoroughly, but as I said before...

1). It was downright dumb to write that all of the sidekicks thought their faces had been cut off.

2). What Joker did to them wasn't nearly enough for them to cause them all to have PTSD in those final pages.

It's just stupid. The entire logic behind Joker even being able to shake the foundations of the Bat-Family without even harming anyone is senseless. These people have suffered multiple deaths at the hands of the Joker, and still have gone on. Him doing some performance piece on them to **** with Bruce's head should have extremely little affect.

And to think that that should have "lasting implications" is equally vapid. Again, if he actually characterized the characters like they should be and have been for years now, they'd shrug it off in about a day and move on.

Co-Signing.

[nite-owl]

I like to think that Snyder's scripts got mixed up with some fan fiction and every at DC was to embarrassed to admit it.

[CConn]

It really is like a little kid trying to do justice to his idol without having the talent, insight or sophistication to do it.

[kguillou]

I dunno, I think Snyder's very talented, i mean he wrote the story very well but the ending, like you said CConn, gave us blue balls. I think if he were willing to take a chance and be ballsy, this story could have been magnificent and really given us all something to talk about.

[CConn]

I think his writing has very quickly deteriorated; regressing to pretty simplistic plotting, overly campy dialogue, and an inability to properly imbibe his stories with character growth and progression.

[JewishHobbit]

I'll have to reread the arc to really decide but I do feel that it was a big let down. I didn't really appreciate Night of the Owls either until I read it straight through though, so I want to give Death of the Family a fair shot as well.

[RoughNTumble]

at least he said his riddler arc won't cross over

[Cain]

Originally Posted by CConn

I'm not really interested in debating it too thoroughly, but as I said before...

1). It was downright dumb to write that all of the sidekicks thought their faces had been cut off.

2). What Joker did to them wasn't nearly enough for them to cause them all to have PTSD in those final pages.

It's just stupid. The entire logic behind Joker even being able to shake the foundations of the Bat-Family without even harming anyone is senseless. These people have suffered multiple deaths at the hands of the Joker, and still have gone on. Him doing some performance piece on them to **** with Bruce's head should have extremely little affect.

And to think that that should have "lasting implications" is equally vapid. Again, if he actually characterized the characters like they should be and have been for years now, they'd shrug it off in about a day and move on.

Powerful post

[RoughNTumble]

[RoughNTumble]

http://smodcast.com/episodes/grant-morrison-bat-bard/

Grant Morrison on kevin smith's batman podcast

haven't listened to it yet

[Darkness Falls]

alfred's dream in batman & robin 17 alone was worth the cover price

[Léo Ho Tep]

I agree with everything Ccon has said. Also, DOTF wasn't well written at all. It was average, the dialogues were bad, it was full of stupid moments, like Batman knocking a horse. Not only is there nothing special in this story, but it's not even just a good story. I'm not waiting for earth shattering stories. I just want some good stories. That's what I get with Tomasi. His stories are not incredible, mostly because he has to tie them with Batman, or Batman inc, but his characterization is incredible, which makes his run awesome imo.

[Mystirious]

Batman punching that poor horse is why the Bat family are angry at him

You apologise Bruce, you horse puncher you

I liked the end of Death of the family mostly...I thought what was on the platter being one huge joke on Batman and on the readers was a nice touch

[Oberon sexton]

Originally Posted by Mystirious

Batman punching that poor horse is why the Bat family are angry at him

You apologise Bruce, you horse puncher you

I liked the end of Death of the family mostly...I thought what was on the platter being one huge joke on Batman and on the readers was a nice touch

I may have to break you.

[Mystirious]

Originally Posted by Oberon sexton

I may have to break you.

But I need my spine

[Llama_Shepherd]

Originally Posted by Léo Ho Tep

I agree with everything Ccon has said. Also, DOTF wasn't well written at all. It was average, the dialogues were bad, it was full of stupid moments, like Batman knocking a horse. Not only is there nothing special in this story, but it's not even just a good story. I'm not waiting for earth shattering stories. I just want some good stories. That's what I get with Tomasi. His stories are not incredible, mostly because he has to tie them with Batman, or Batman inc, but his characterization is incredible, which makes his run awesome imo.

+1. I very much enjoyed Snyder when he was on Detective Comics, so I'd actually love to see him moved to Nightwing, where he would hopefully write a Nightwing who is compotent as he is one of the most experienced heroes after the JL. Then Tomasi might be allowed free reign on Batman & Robin.

Unfortunately, Snyder=$ so he's noot gonna be moving, which means more contrived, rehashed crap, which ultimately is systematically dismantling the run of the far superior Grant Morrison.

Since 2005 we've seen Bruce actually evolving as a character, that there is more to him than just Batman and that the most important thing, the first truth of Batman was that he was never alone, and Scott Snyder managed to take that away in one- very underwhelming- issue.

[Mystirious]

I think the reason I didn't mind Death of the Family was that i ignored all that hype about how 'omg this will be the most important Batman vs Joker' story ever'

It definitely wasn't but as a Joker story i thought it was okay

I dug Riddler getting some love

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by BlackMagicWolf

I'm really surprised at what i'm hearing. You all really didn't like the ending? I've heard some pretty....interesting excuses as to why this isn't good so i'll try and say it why it is a good ending.

Be mindful that this is my opinion, I've read Batman comics for years and am full-versed on his mythology, I'm not trying to disrepect anyone just trying to bring some clarity.

CConn: How was dumb that the bat-family got tricked into believing their faces were gone? I believed it the moment I saw it, I couldn't but think "What kind of tech will allow their faces to be reattached?". It has nothing to do with strength or smarts when you're dealing with a psychopath. If anything that's what this arc proved. That no matter how prepared you are, how strong you are, how good you are, sometimes someone will have your number and be able to outhink you. He didn't dumb down the characters at all, he played upon what happened in the previous issues and in the tie-ins to create a believeable scenario. They see that the others faces are bandaged and covered in blood, the Joker had his own face removed why wouldn't they believe he would do the same to them? Damian, the toughest kid in the DCU, was afraid that his face was gone and asked Batman how he looked, that's believable, even Batman was suprised when it was a bluff.

Kguillou: I didn't really want a bang, that's not what the Batman/Joker stories are supposed to be about, they're about proving a point. The Killing Joke was about proving that one bad day can turn anyone into a guy like the Joker, Arkham Asylum was about proving that it's Batman's true home. Death of the Family was to prove that Batman needed the Joker and the Joker alone. That the family made him weak. I didn't expect a huge fistfight or the death of a family member or the batcave blowing up, I want good dialogue, good progression of the characters. And that's what I got.

stillanerd: I understand what you're saying, really I do, but you're not thinking about some of this in the right perspective. Mainly the part about the Joker and his past. Part of the enigma of the Joker is that we don't truly know who is or was. You say he doesn't care about his past, but The Killing Joke shows that he does, one bad day and all that remember? Second just he doesn't care doesn't mean he wants everyone to know. Especially Batman. It's just like the Riddler said once, "when a riddle is known by all it's useless", Batman is a master detective yet he could (until now) never figure out who Joker was. That drove him crazy not being able to figure that out. And Joker used that against him, so when Batman said he knew it scared Joker, his biggest secret was out, the playing field was level for the first time. And as for the Bat-family hating Bruce that hasn't happened in this scale in recent tenure. The Bat-Family is famous for always being there for one another, Battle for the Cowl, Hush, and others showed that they had each others back. Then its revealed that there greatest nemesis may have known about them all along? Of course they should feel betrayed, especially after what happens because of that. And i'm sorry but I couldn't help but laugh when after the battle was over and the Joker had "lost" and the Bat-Family had split and Bruce was all alone at the Batcomputer that the final word we see is "HA". That's poetry.

i'm not trying to prove anything here, I'm just trying to show another viewpoint. Death of the Family was meant as a battle between Batman and Joker, a culmination of a long and bloody history. And I believe it did that. Did it have epic moments? Yes. Did it a resound effect on the Bat-books? Yes, and time should prove that. Did we get insight into both Batman and Joker that we hadn't had before? Yes depending on what you've read.

We should appreciate this for it is, not for what we wanted it to be.

I thank you for your time.

I agree with this overall. I do think part of the problem is the hype surrounding this story. Snyder kind of set the stage for a horror-like, Silence of the Lambs type of ending but ultimately it was still a Batman story full of Batman tropes. I think it succeeded in finding some new edges to bring out in the Batman/Joker dynamic, but let's face it- a lot of readers were expecting at least one death. Doesn't mean that was the right way to end it, but the expectation was there.

This is just my opinion, but I think what rubs some people the wrong way about Snyder is his writing has a touch of self-importance to it (which Morrison's did too), which causes people to be more critical. Trust me, I can relate to that mindset so I'm not blaming anyone who bashes his run. But if you remove all the hype and whatnot, I still think he's writing quite solid Batman stories. I know others will disagree, but his arcs have certainly kept my attention so far, and Capullo's artwork has been stellar. One thing I respect about Snyder's stuff is that he comes up with an interpretation and sticks with it, even if it's an unconventional way of viewing Gotham/the characters. Joker's motivation throughout this story was unique and new to the mythos, it drove the story the whole way through and stayed consistent up to the very last panel. He had a take on the character and his relationship with Batman and stuck to his guns.