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Old 02-14-2013, 05:33 AM   #51
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

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The thing is that the NDAA says that those covered are people who harbor terrorists as well (if you think about it you would be guilty of a crime if you willfully harbored a criminal). They are fair game. If you kill a terrorist and his family, the family who harbors him is fair game. One may count them as civilians, but they are targets as well. According to the U.S. as of 2010 only 20 to 30 civilians were killed in drone strikes in the 9 years it had been operation. That's compared to 6.6 million civilians during WWI, 70 million during WW2, about 1.5 million during the Korean conflict, 1.1 during the Vietnam War, and 13,807 during the Persian Gulf War in a shorter time frame with combat forces.


Well sorry baby you have to die because your uncles a terroist and he visted.

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Old 02-14-2013, 04:15 PM   #52
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

I know what you mean, Smash. The child doesn't have any stake in their hypothetical terrorist relative's mad crusade, but war doesn't work like that.

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Old 02-14-2013, 05:02 PM   #53
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

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I know what you mean, Smash. The child doesn't have any stake in their hypothetical terrorist relative's mad crusade, but war doesn't work like that.
Just for the record, we are not talking about 3000 or so children. It's more like 176, and it is unfortunate. The thing is that the U.S. government is only claiming that a total of 50 people were killed in those strikes.

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Old 03-06-2013, 04:17 PM   #54
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

I am totally disgusted with the hypocrisy of how we as Americans view life.

If an American dies over sees by a bombing it's a national tragedy. If a middle eastern dies in a bombing (or a whole bunch of middle eastern families) it's collateral damage (to somewhat quote a show)

We seem to think it doesn't matter because they are not "our people" As if we're better than then.
Just imagine for a second being terrified for your life every second day and night. Actually being sick with illness due to constant stress. That's what the good people in these countries go through all the time because of our "fight for freedom" BS we spout.

Not knowing if today will be the day you die in a bombing because one person in a crowd MIGHT be a terrorist. Or if the guy wearing the flag who says he’s a good guy will shoot you just for fun.

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Old 03-06-2013, 04:19 PM   #55
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

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Just for the record, we are not talking about 3000 or so children. It's more like 176, and it is unfortunate. The thing is that the U.S. government is only claiming that a total of 50 people were killed in those strikes.

ONLY? Really? Because if 50 Americans died there would be outrage, but I guess since it's "only 50 LESSER people" it's bad...but OK. I mean, after all...they are not the glorious Americans.

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Old 03-06-2013, 04:40 PM   #56
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

Rand Paul is leading a filibuster. Against John Brennan nomination for CIA Director and drone policy. Closing in on 6 hr mark. On c-span 2 and online on c-span.

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Old 03-07-2013, 07:11 AM   #57
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"Holder told the Senate Judiciary Committee earlier in the day that if there had been anti-aircraft missiles positioned around New York and Washington on the day before the Sept. 11 hijackings,* they might've enabled the president to destroy the airliners at the cost of hundreds of American lives, as compared with the thousands who were actually killed when they crashed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

“What would we all give to have had those Patriot missile batteries available on Sept. 10, 2001 in New York and Washington. It would have meant we lost a planeload of American citizens and would have saved thousands” of lives, Holder said."


Why on earth would you shoot down multiple planes of innocent US citizens at a time when you had no clue what the terrorists were actually going to do with the planes? Especially since, before 9/11, ramming planes into buildings wasn't even really thought of as a possible strategy.

I mean, what if the government took out a bus with your family on it, just because they kinda thought they heard through intelligence (y'know, which is wrong sometimes) that terrorists were going to utilize the bus for nefarious reasons, would you be cool with that?What's most troubling about Holder's statement was that, in his hypothetical, he didn't just list terrorists being killed, or not even those aiding them, but 100% innocent US citizens as well.

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Old 03-07-2013, 02:14 PM   #58
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

If a plane is in restricted airspace way off course, not making contact and heading for the heart of a major city where no airports are loacted and has refused to make visual contact with an escort then shoot it down. Even if it was a mechanical failure and not a terrorist attack and nothing else could be done they should still shoot it down before if it reaches the city. A plane plummeting into a building in the middle of a city due to mechanical failure is equally as dangerous as a hijacked plane plummeting into a building in the middle of the city. Its about saving the most lives possible. Its not glorious, and it is unfair to people on the plane, but it is equally unfair to the other thousands who would die because someone couldn't make the tough decision. Those brave passengers who brought down the plane themselves that day understood this.

And a bus is not even anywhere close to being the same as a plane off course and out of control. A bus would not do what those two planes did on 9/11. The size and velocity of the craft plus the type and amount of fuel carried makes an out of control plane a literal missle.

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Old 03-07-2013, 03:18 PM   #59
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

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ONLY? Really? Because if 50 Americans died there would be outrage, but I guess since it's "only 50 LESSER people" it's bad...but OK. I mean, after all...they are not the glorious Americans.
The fact that anyone finds this to be defensible disgusts me to my core and it's a core reason why I'm just absolutely fed up with the American left.

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Old 03-07-2013, 03:40 PM   #60
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

^This.

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Old 03-07-2013, 03:41 PM   #61
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

HH, are you talking about Destructus's reply, or the message Destructus is replying to?

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Old 03-07-2013, 03:52 PM   #62
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

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If a plane is in restricted airspace way off course, not making contact and heading for the heart of a major city where no airports are loacted and has refused to make visual contact with an escort then shoot it down. Even if it was a mechanical failure and not a terrorist attack and nothing else could be done they should still shoot it down before if it reaches the city. A plane plummeting into a building in the middle of a city due to mechanical failure is equally as dangerous as a hijacked plane plummeting into a building in the middle of the city. Its about saving the most lives possible. Its not glorious, and it is unfair to people on the plane, but it is equally unfair to the other thousands who would die because someone couldn't make the tough decision. Those brave passengers who brought down the plane themselves that day understood this.

And a bus is not even anywhere close to being the same as a plane off course and out of control. A bus would not do what those two planes did on 9/11. The size and velocity of the craft plus the type and amount of fuel carried makes an out of control plane a literal missle.
And I'm sure you'd say that exact same thing if it was Bush, Cheney, and Powell who made that statement.

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Old 03-07-2013, 03:55 PM   #63
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

I think he is talking about the message Destructus is replying.

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Old 03-07-2013, 03:56 PM   #64
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

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ONLY? Really? Because if 50 Americans died there would be outrage, but I guess since it's "only 50 LESSER people" it's bad...but OK. I mean, after all...they are not the glorious Americans.
While I'm a tremendous advocate of one's citizenship status doesn't change their worth as human being, when it comes to people launching attacks and whatnot on foreign soil, war is war.

And it is awful.

And it is a terrible shame it has to happen.

But its not as if America's enemies would be cool with just hashing it out peacefully in Switzerland so innocents could be saved.

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Old 03-07-2013, 04:03 PM   #65
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

You can't kill a plane full of innocent people because of where it might land.

You don't know for sure if the hijacker will chicken out, if the target can be vacated or if the passengers and crew will regain control of the plane.

Which means if you blow it up, you might've killed all those innocent people for nothing. No, admit that somethings are harder to prevent and move on morals intact. That's exactly what we should do with the option of torture as well.

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Old 03-07-2013, 04:06 PM   #66
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

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You can't kill a plane full of innocent people because of where it might land.

You don't know for sure if the hijacker will chicken out, if the target can be vacated or if the passengers and crew will regain control of the plane.

Which means if you blow it up, you might've killed all those innocent people for nothing. No, admit that somethings are harder to prevent and move on morals intact. That's exactly what we should do with the option of torture as well.
Exactly. Its not really that complex.

Or it isn't until you attach an R or a D next to the person who said it apparently.

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Old 03-07-2013, 04:09 PM   #67
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

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You can't kill a plane full of innocent people because of where it might land.

You don't know for sure if the hijacker will chicken out, if the target can be vacated or if the passengers and crew will regain control of the plane.

Which means if you blow it up, you might've killed all those innocent people for nothing. No, admit that somethings are harder to prevent and move on morals intact. That's exactly what we should do with the option of torture as well.
Within a mile of a city you don't have the luxery of hoping it won't land in a building. If it wasn't for an airliner being a bomb in and of itself I wouldn't suggest anything like this, but with a plane carrying thousands of gallons of fuel and weighing in at around 730,000 pounds there is no other option it must be put down. Letting it hit a building isn't an option.

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Old 03-07-2013, 04:12 PM   #68
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

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Within a mile of a city you don't have the luxery of hoping it won't land in a building.
No, you just have the intelligence to not murder people on a guess.

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Old 03-07-2013, 04:18 PM   #69
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No, you just have the intelligence to not murder people on a guess.
It isn't murder to save thousands.

And remember shooting down a plane isnt an option once it is over the city. You would just rain fire and steel down on a wide area. There is a small window to decide whether to do it or not. And the government does send out jet's to get visual contact before doing it. They don't just say "gee willikers lets murder some folks!"

It isn't the governments fault if they have to make that decision. It is the criminals who put the plane and its passengers in that ridiculous situation. Their deaths are at the hands of the terrorists not the reactionary measures to save thousands.

This isn't a normal situatiuon where it is a car that can be slowed down and stopped. How do you stop a plane in midair when the terrorist won't allow the plane to be escorted? The only options we have is escort it to the ground or shoot it. But if you have other options feel free to come share.

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Old 03-07-2013, 04:22 PM   #70
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

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It isn't murder to save thousands.

And remember shooting down a plane isnt an option once it is over the city. You would just rain fire and steel down on a wide area. There is a small window to decide whether to do it or not. And the government does send out jet's to get visual contact before doing it. They don't just say "gee willikers lets murder some folks!"

It isn't the governments fault if they have to make that decision. It is the criminals who put the plane and its passengers in that ridiculous situation. Their deaths are at the hands of the terrorists not the reactionary measures to save thousands.

This isn't a normal situatiuon where it is a car that can be slowed down and stopped. How do you stop a plane in midair when the terrorist won't allow the plane to be escorted? The only options we have is escort it to the ground or shoot it. But if you have other options feel free to come share.
But again, if there's no communication, you don't even know if there's a criminal on the plane.

You're merely using moral relativism to make a senseless statement seem sensible. It isn't.

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Old 03-07-2013, 04:24 PM   #71
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

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But again, if there's no communication, you don't even know if there's a criminal on the plane.

You're merely using moral relativism to make a senseless statement seem sensible. It isn't.
And you are ignoring a keypoint. That is why they send the jets to get visual contact. A jet can get close enough to see in the cockpit. They can see who is at the controls. If the pilot is at the controls or the terrorist will make contact back they don't shoot. It is only if the cockpit is empty or the jet pilot sees something suspicious that they radio back and receive further orders and possibily move to more drastic measures. They don't just blindly make the decision.

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Old 03-07-2013, 04:25 PM   #72
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

Oh, and, also, you technically have no idea how many people would be killed if you didn't shoot the plane down. Because, as you yourself admitted, it could be a mechanical failure, it could go down without harming thousands, it could not even go down at all, you really don't know. You're just guessing. A guess that could easily cost people their lives for no good reason other than a bunch of assumptions.

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Old 03-07-2013, 04:27 PM   #73
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Oh, and, also, you technically have no idea how many people would be killed if you didn't shoot the plane down. Because, as you yourself admitted, it could be a mechanical failure, it could go down without harming thousands, it could not even go down at all, you really don't know. You're just guessing. A guess that could easily cost people their lives for no good reason other than a bunch of assumptions.
You do realize that if it is a mechanical failure and it hits a building it will still ignite the fuel, right? If a 747 had hit the trade centers due to a mechanical failure it would have been the same result. The fuel didn't ignite because of a bomb. So yes, an engineer would be able to say how many would die if a plane hit one area or another.

Also, planes feed back information to the pilot and the tower. If a plane has a mechanical failure the pilot and the tower can determine where they are going down and report it. Airliners have safety protocols galore so if it is a legitimate mechanical failure it will be known and steps are in place to solve or contain the situation. If it is a true mechanical failure the government will know and act accordingly. Only under extreme circumstances would they ever shoot a plane with a mechanical failure down, and they do have scientists and engineers who determine the fallout of the crash so the tower and government can make an informed decision.

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Old 03-07-2013, 04:34 PM   #74
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

So anytime a plane is hijacked we kill everyone on the plane?

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Old 03-07-2013, 04:39 PM   #75
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You do realize that if it is a mechanical failure and it hits a building it will still ignite the fuel, right?
Or the plane could land in the body of water that's, what, less than a mile away from where the WTC was located.

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