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Old 03-07-2013, 04:43 PM   #76
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

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Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123 View Post
So anytime a plane is hijacked we kill everyone on the plane?
They have engineers and scientists who determine probable casualties and fallout if planes go down in certain ares. The airliners have protocal they follow in the event of every imaginable situation. This is somewhat of a rundown of how it goes. When the tower loses contact with a plane they are by law required to contact the government. They work with the government to make sure beyond a shadow of a doubt it isn't mechanical failure. After all available options have been ticked off and they have confirmed it isn't a mechanical failure the government scrambles jets to get a view of the plane and attempt to make visual contact. If the cockpit is empty they report that and try to get a view in the cabin and report that. If the pilot is at the controls and nothing hinky is going on they will attempt to make visual contact with the pilots of the jet. If the pilot isn't at the controls and it is someone else they report that. While all this back and forth is going on the government has people working to determine how to best diffuse the situation. Shooting is and has always been a last resort. That won't change. And by last resort I mean the people who are capable of making an informed decision about the way to save the most lives has made the call. Then they report that to the people who give the order. This all happens very quickly.

Shooting down a plane is always at the end of the options list. As it should be. I am not saying we should just shoot down a plane. What I am saying is that by the time the government gives the order to shoot down the plane it has already been determined how many will die and the fallout if they don't. It is an informed decision based on protocal and imperical data and people who know what will happen. And yes with the wonders of engineering, and R&D we are capable of knowing what will happen and how many will die if a plane should hit an area so when they decide to shoot down a plane they do in fact know whether it will save more lives as opposed to leaving the plane in the air.

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Old 03-07-2013, 04:44 PM   #77
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

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Originally Posted by Marvolo View Post
Oh people, can you not read? They have engineers and scientists who determine probable casualties and fallout if planes go down in certain ares. The airliners have protocal they follow in the event of every imaginable situation. This is somewhat of a rundown of how it goes. When the tower loses contact with a plane they are by law required to contact the government. They work with the government to make sure beyond a shadow of a doubt it isn't mechanical failure. After all available options have been ticked off and they have confirmed it isn't a mechanical failure the government scrambles jets to get a view of the plane and attempt to make visual contact. If the cockpit is empty they report that and try to get a view in the cabin and report that. If the pilot is at the controls and nothing hionky is going on they will attempt to make visual contact with the pilots of the jet. If the pilot isn't at the controls and it is someone else tehy report that. WQhile all this back and forth is going on the government ahs people working to determine how to best diffuse the situation. Shooting is and has always been a last resort. That won't change. And by last resort I mean the people who are capable of making an informed decision about the way to save the most lives has made the call. Then they report that to the people who give the order. This all happens very quickly.

Shooting down a plane is always at the end of teh otpions list. As it should be I am not saying we shouldjust shoot down a plane. What I am saying is that by the time the government gives the order to shoot down the plane it has already been determined how many will die and the fallout if they don't. It is an informed deciswion based on protocal and imperical data andpeople who know what will happen.
It seems like you're merely attempting to create an extremely specific, perfected example (which would be highly unlikely yo ever actually able or be feasible realistically) just to prove your point.

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Old 03-07-2013, 04:52 PM   #78
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

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It seems like you're merely attempting to create an extremely specific, perfected example (which would be highly unlikely yo ever actually able or be feasible realistically) just to prove your point.
No, that is the protocol should a plane lose contact with the tower. The tower contacts the proper government authority and after the tower has done its part and can't get contact the jet's last known location is assessed and depending on location jets are scrambled. And I am not trying to prove a point. Our government does reserve the right to shoot down a plane, but as I said that is a last option and thankfully we have engineers and R&D that does tell us what is the most optimal decision to make. Shooting down a plane is never a knee jerk decision. When they make that choice they know it will save more lives. If there is even a shadow of a doubt that shooting down the plane won't save more than it would cost they leave the bird in the air. In the case of 9/11( a completely freak occurence lightning in a bottle event due to a number of things going wrong) with the protocals we have today and the knowledge we have gathered since then we would have been able to get those planes down before they hit the trade centers. The horrible catch 22 is that the only way we could prepare for a situation like 9/11 is to have experienced it, because at that point we were just naive that anyone would ever do something like that.

Hopefully, with advancing tech and our hindsight we can make planes hijack proof and no plane ever has to be shot down. Advancements in auto pilot is a good start. Make it so the bastards cant take control. The plane just locates the nearest landing strip and puts itself down while the terrorists suck a bag of *****.

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Old 03-07-2013, 06:51 PM   #79
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

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HH, are you talking about Destructus's reply, or the message Destructus is replying to?


I was agreeing with Destruct us and taking a step further by pointing out my disgust on the attitude a lot of the left has taken in regards to this issue.

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Old 03-07-2013, 06:57 PM   #80
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I was agreeing with Destruct us and taking a step further by pointing out my disgust on the attitude a lot of the left has taken in regards to this issue.
Is it fair to blame the only the left?

Outside of Libertarians, hardly anyone on the right is rallying against innocent drone casualties.

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Old 03-07-2013, 07:16 PM   #81
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

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Is it fair to blame the only the left?

Outside of Libertarians, hardly anyone on the right is rallying against innocent drone casualties.
Asides from libertarians, the excessively overzealous defense policy of the right has made me expect them to support things like this. They are at least consistent in supporting a vile and horrid policy. Being upset at the right on this issue would like being upset at Forrest Gump for having an IQ of 70. The left on the other hand....if this were George W. Bush doing this, they would be tearing the man into shreds. During the Bush Administration it was the left that was constantly criticizing the Executive Branch for ignoring the rule of law, but with the Obama Administration, since it's their guy, it's totally okay and acceptable. They don't have principles when it comes to Obama, they're just rooting for the guy like he's some kind of ****ing football team.

It really is the sheer hypocrisy that is disgusting me on this issue. The left should be standing up against Obama for his stance on drones and yet what do we have, politicians and even posters here on the Hype defending an utterly horrid, disgusting, and indefensible policy just because Obama is their guy. And it's not just on the drone issue, it's on everything that this administration has been doing between the crony capitalism, the lack of transparency, health care, etc. Where's the god damn outrage?!

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Old 03-07-2013, 07:16 PM   #82
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

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Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123 View Post
Is it fair to blame the only the left?

Outside of Libertarians, hardly anyone on the right is rallying against innocent drone casualties.
I don't think the right (outside of Libertarians) had a big problem with innocent casualties during the Bush administration. Many on the left certainly did . . . yet for some reason no longer do. It couldn't be because the political party of President changed, could it? Or, did they just "evolve" their positions at a rather convenient time?

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Old 03-07-2013, 07:30 PM   #83
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

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Asides from libertarians, the excessively overzealous defense policy of the right has made me expect them to support things like this. They are at least consistent in supporting a vile and horrid policy. Being upset at the right on this issue would like being upset at Forrest Gump for having an IQ of 70. The left on the other hand....if this were George W. Bush doing this, they would be tearing the man into shreds. During the Bush Administration it was the left that was constantly criticizing the Executive Branch for ignoring the rule of law, but with the Obama Administration, since it's their guy, it's totally okay and acceptable. They don't have principles when it comes to Obama, they're just rooting for the guy like he's some kind of ****ing football team.

It really is the sheer hypocrisy that is disgusting me on this issue. The left should be standing up against Obama for his stance on drones and yet what do we have, politicians and even posters here on the Hype defending an utterly horrid, disgusting, and indefensible policy just because Obama is their guy. And it's not just on the drone issue, it's on everything that this administration has been doing between the crony capitalism, the lack of transparency, health care, etc. Where's the god damn outrage?!
Okay I'm with you on the hypocritical acceptance of the left regarding Obama's poor record on civil liberties, crony capitalism and drones. I agree that it makes liberals and so-called progressives look really bad when they give Obama a free pass and in the long run it's going to bite them in the rear. They won't be taken seriously when they attack the next Republican president on any of these issues. They're only destroying any integrity they have left by blindly accepting everything Obama does that counters their principles.

I say this as a person who considers himself a progressive on many issues.

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Old 03-07-2013, 08:04 PM   #84
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

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Okay I'm with you on the hypocritical acceptance of the left regarding Obama's poor record on civil liberties, crony capitalism and drones. I agree that it makes liberals and so-called progressives look really bad when they give Obama a free pass and in the long run it's going to bite them in the rear. They won't be taken seriously when they attack the next Republican president on any of these issues. They're only destroying any integrity they have left by blindly accepting everything Obama does that counters their principles.

I say this as a person who considers himself a progressive on many issues.
Exactly! It's actually quite heartening to see someone on the left such as yourself, actually call this **** out.

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Old 03-10-2013, 04:44 AM   #85
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Old 03-10-2013, 02:12 PM   #86
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

Obama is a war criminal. Where are the left wing now?

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Old 03-11-2013, 05:41 AM   #87
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

What domestic terrorist? How often is there a Timothy McVeigh?? And when there is, why would he need to be taken out with a drone?? We use drones in Pakistan because we don't have boots on the ground. We obviously have boots on the ground here (and that has to be the silliest sentence I've written in a week).

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Old 03-11-2013, 05:47 AM   #88
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Obama is a war criminal. Where are the left wing now?
No, you're right. The hypocrisy on the left is pretty bad, concerning the drone program. I equate it to those on the right who a decade ago were pro-Iraq war neocon adventurists, but are now libertarian isolationists.

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Old 03-11-2013, 06:03 AM   #89
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

If you mean the anti-war movement, they and the tea party agreed to take 4-8 year shifts.

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Old 03-11-2013, 09:05 AM   #90
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Obama is a war criminal. Where are the left wing now?
Most presidents from the last 50 years are war criminals.

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Old 03-11-2013, 09:07 AM   #91
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If you mean the anti-war movement, they and the tea party agreed to take 4-8 year shifts.
When has the Tea Party ever been anti-War?

Maybe you mean the Libertarian Right.

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Old 03-11-2013, 09:14 AM   #92
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What domestic terrorist? How often is there a Timothy McVeigh?? And when there is, why would he need to be taken out with a drone?? We use drones in Pakistan because we don't have boots on the ground. We obviously have boots on the ground here (and that has to be the silliest sentence I've written in a week).
Well the police used a drone against Christopher Dorner even though it wasn't armed.

In fact the police are trying to use them for surveillance on a regular basis. The police state is becoming more and more militarized.

It doesn't take much imagination to see a point where the government justifies arming them against American revolts and/or terrorists.

The government starts by justifying torture, indefinite detention without trail and drone attacks on evil Muslims. Americans don't care. So when they start doing it to us we have no reason to complain.

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Old 03-11-2013, 11:02 AM   #93
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

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Obama is a war criminal. Where are the left wing now?
War criminal is a funny term because it has a fairly strict definition, but it's only applied when the loser fits it.

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Old 03-11-2013, 11:34 AM   #94
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Default Re: Should drones be used to fight domestic terrorist?

Waterboarding was conveniently only a war crime when the Nazis did it.

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Old 03-11-2013, 01:53 PM   #95
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War criminal is a funny term because it has a fairly strict definition, but it's only applied when the loser fits it.
It's only a war crime if it's someone else doing it. (ie not the US)

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Old 03-18-2013, 02:26 PM   #96
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Old 03-19-2013, 07:23 PM   #97
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All you have to do is watch the news to know drones produce far more civilian casualties than they're supposed to.
So true. I am amazed though that the news let this kind of information out in the public.
It's like a sick video game really for the operators of the drones. After many strikes somehow they flip out and decide to kill whoever civilian they like just for fun. After all who is gonna get them.

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Old 03-19-2013, 07:58 PM   #98
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I am totally disgusted with the hypocrisy of how we as Americans view life.

If an American dies over sees by a bombing it's a national tragedy. If a middle eastern dies in a bombing (or a whole bunch of middle eastern families) it's collateral damage (to somewhat quote a show)

We seem to think it doesn't matter because they are not "our people" As if we're better than then.
Just imagine for a second being terrified for your life every second day and night. Actually being sick with illness due to constant stress. That's what the good people in these countries go through all the time because of our "fight for freedom" BS we spout.

Not knowing if today will be the day you die in a bombing because one person in a crowd MIGHT be a terrorist. Or if the guy wearing the flag who says he’s a good guy will shoot you just for fun.
Great post. One thing i don't get is why Americans feel they are better or more importantly "different" from the other country citizens. I thought America was colonized by Europeans and then more nationalities came in the way like Africans, Chinese and from all over the world. Other than the indigenous Indians, the rest of Americans are people from all countries.

It is stupid when both Americans and Europeans get into who is better and all that. We are all brothers divided by corporations and governments so they can enjoy power and maintain the current status quo.


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Old 03-19-2013, 08:29 PM   #99
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I imagine the most vocal protest against drones depends on which party sanctions the drones. For example, I doubt Hannity would be so outspoken about the drones if the president who sanctioned them wasn't a Democrat.

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Old 10-22-2013, 10:34 AM   #100
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Two new reports from human rights groups show that U.S. drone strikes in Pakistan and Yemen have killed more civilians than American authorities have admitted and may, in some cases, have violated international law.

Amnesty International investigated nine U.S. drone attacks in Pakistan between May 2012 and July 2013. According to the group, more than 30 civilians were killed in just four of the strikes.

One such strike killed 10 civilians, including a 14-year-old, who were, at the time they were bombed, eating dinner inside a tent. Several minutes later, as rescuers arrived to treat the wounded, another missile attack struck the site, killing eight more civilians.

“The drones are like the angels of death,” Nazeer Gul, a shopkeeper in the village Miram Shah in Pakistan, where at least 19 civilians have been killed since January 2012, told the New York Times. “Only they know when and where they will strike.”

The Human Rights Watch, which conducted a separate investigation in Yemen, found that at least 57 civilians were killed in six attacks between 2009 and 2013, including 41 in a 2009 strike that was based on bad information from the Yemeni government.

And a 2012 airstrike in Yemen destroyed a mini-bus, killing a pregnant woman, three children, and eight others. That attack was also blamed on faulty intelligence from the Yemeni government, which compensated the victim's families.

The studies come just four days after a U.N. human rights investigator released a report on drone strikes in Pakistan. According to the the investigator, Ben Emmerson, about 2,200 people have been killed by drone strikes in Pakistan over the past decade, including at least 400 civilians and 200 “probable non-combatants.”

In May, President Obama announced changes to the drone program, saying it will be only be used when there's “near-certainty that no civilians will be killed or injured,” and promised to be more transparent about the operations, which are carried out by a secret CIA program in Pakistan and by the CIA and Joint Special Operations Command in Yemen.

While the number of strikes has dropped in recent months, the U.S. still refuses to release information about many of the attacks, according to the reports.

“We think these people were civilians, and the onus is on the U.S. government to prove otherwise,” Naureen Shah of Amnesty International, who helped write that group’s report, told the Los Angeles Times. “The U.S. government has this information and is withholding it.”
Just imagine the wonders they could do on our home turf

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