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View Poll Results: Which is your favourite of Nolans Batfilms?
Batman Begins 54 19.93%
The Dark Knight 115 42.44%
The Dark Knight Rises 102 37.64%
Voters: 271. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-12-2013, 11:17 PM   #251
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That doesn't make sense. You can say the same about Begins, and id disagree. "Oh let's do Year One here! Then stick The Man Who Falls there, then 1 scene of Long Halloween there!" and with TDK "Long Halloween and Killing Joke and Heat..."

It's no different with TDKR as it was with BB or TDK.

I don't find anything cut and paste with Rises.

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Old 05-12-2013, 11:23 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Shikamaru View Post
I really felt his heart wasn't here. I don't mean to sound rude but a lot of the film feels very half-ass to me. There are 2 main things that give me this feeling from it.

The first is that it's not as intelligent (don't know if that's the right word) as the first two. What I mean is that Nolan was always careful to have most of his things make sense within the context of the story and not make the audience say "Well, I have to accept that because it's a CBM". Sure that that exists in all CBM's to an extent but you never had to think like that with most things in BB and TDK. Now with TDKR, about half of the movie has that "accept this because it's a CBM" mentality almost to the same extent as The Avengers. You have to constantly give things a pass because it is a CBM. Take Catwoman's costume for example. Why is she wearing it? It makes no sense for her to wear it other than in the 2 scenes where she steals. It doesn't protect her against anything; it doesn't hide her identity; she doesn't use any of the weapons on it. The only reason she seems to be wearing it most of the time is because she is Catwoman and this is a superhero movie. Another example is Bruce healing his back because, well, he just does because it's a CBM. It is that type of Avengers logic that is majorly present in half the film. That's one of the things that makes me feel Nolan's heart wasn't in the right place.
I just wanted to reply to this point. I'll limit it to just this one though because, while I disagree with you on TDKR in general, this part I strongly agree with even more and no doubt others will reply and I don't want it to seem like I'm ganging up on you.

However, just going off of this paragraph, you seem to have a problem with some story gaps. Are there some things that we could have seen or done differently? Sure. There are gaps in story or logic in almost every film out there. How does Joker get bombs into a hospital? How does the water vaporizing device in Begins vaporize water in the mains but not in people's bodies? How come Harvey has to explain a Rico case to Gordon? There are compromises made for the story in practically every film. But to say that it's not as intelligent is something I disagree with. In many ways, I find it the most symbolic and rich of not just Nolan's Batman trilogy but of his entire career so far. I wrote up an analysis on it, you don't have to read it but, I'm not going to rehash my points here.

http://forums.arkhamverse.com/viewto...p?f=91&t=19163

Also, Catwoman's costume, she's a cat burglar. The heels are debatable (and undeniably flats are easier to move in) as for usefulness (mostly they seem to be there for Selina to leave scratch marks in people) but the rest of the costume isn't exactly too out there for a catburglar. Nightvision goggles and a skintight outfit. Nothing too fancy.

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Old 05-12-2013, 11:26 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by shauner111 View Post
Ledger died, so they went from probably sticking him in the 3rd in a very small role to not featuring Joker at all. But they chose the third movie to tell that retirement story so it would match that "final Bruce Wayne image" they had in their heads since 2005. Why did they do that? Because they figured it would probably be the last movie they made together.
That's what I was talking about. Part of the reason it was ended the way it was was due to Nolan not wanting to come back and also not wanting WB to continue his franchise without him, even though a closed ending such as that did not naturally fit (IMO).

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At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if the trilogy was intentional or not. The fact is, it ended up happening. And it's a beginning, middle and end of a story.
There are 2 types of trilogies. The first are trilogies that just happen to be 3 separate movies that take place in the same continuity AKA just a trilogy. The second type are three-act trilogies like Star Wars and LOTR AKA natural trilogies.

BB and TDK would fall under the first type while TDKR falls under the second. In the first type, each movie is not one part of a bigger story. Each movie is a story. In the second part, each movie is a small part of a bigger story.

Basically, even if TDKR was going to be the last, it should've been treated as just another story in this continuity, even if it would've had a closed ending. However, it tries to pretend as if the entire trilogy is a natural trilogy like Star Wars and LOTR. It is a trilogy, but not the trilogy that TDKR tries to sell itself as.

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I disagree that Nolans heart wasn't in it for TDKR. I actually think it has the most heartfelt writing in the whole trilogy when it comes to Bruce's arc.

I will say that as much as I love (ya, im in the minority) the 8 year gap because it did something that made sense TO ME within the story and it was an unexpected move...and I really love that with a film, when I get something im not expecting...I have to say...a part of me feels like fans wouldn't be *****ing so much if there was a film in between TDK & TDKR to show a lengthier career. Maybe it would have felt more fulfilling by the end of Rises if he was Batman for longer during the gap.

As in, if Bruce was dealing the clean energy project during those 5 years but still going out to clean up the remaining members of the mob, on the down-low. I feel like that would make the haters feel OK about it.
I still probably wouldn't have liked the ending if it was the same but Bruce being Batman for 8 years would've at least made the story feel as if he deserves that retirement, which I didn't feel. That would've made the ending a lot better in my book though still not necessarily great. At least I don't think so.

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Old 05-12-2013, 11:41 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Gotham's Knight View Post
I just wanted to reply to this point. I'll limit it to just this one though because, while I disagree with you on TDKR in general, this part I strongly agree with even more and no doubt others will reply and I don't want it to seem like I'm ganging up on you.
I don't feel like I'm being ganged up on. I feel like I have to handle 1000 different conversations at the same time. lol

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However, just going off of this paragraph, you seem to have a problem with some story gaps. Are there some things that we could have seen or done differently? Sure. There are gaps in story or logic in almost every film out there. How does Joker get bombs into a hospital? How does the water vaporizing device in Begins vaporize water in the mains but not in people's bodies? How come Harvey has to explain a Rico case to Gordon? There are compromises made for the story in practically every film. But to say that it's not as intelligent is something I disagree with. In many ways, I find it the most symbolic and rich of not just Nolan's Batman trilogy but of his entire career so far. I wrote up an analysis on it, you don't have to read it but, I'm not going to rehash my points here.
Things like the stuff I brought up are movie logic that people are just going to have to accept. BB and TDK are not 100% immune from plot holes like that. No story is. But like I also said in the same post you're quoting, the difference is that BB and TDK had that comic book logic in small doses and mainly in the background while there was way too much of it in TDKR - the quantity of those things is why it is a problem in TDKR for me but not in BB & TDK. It doesn't seem to know what it's doing. Sometimes it tries to be more ground and realistic while at other times it has Avengers logic.

As for me saying that it's not intelligent enough, that's exactly why I said that maybe "intelligent" was not the right word to use for what I was talking about. You know what I meant though. I disagree though that it's just as rich as BB and TDK, especially TDK.

If you don't mind, I'll read that at a later time. I'm too busy discussing many things with people here on this site (not just on this thread).

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Also, Catwoman's costume, she's a cat burglar. The heels are debatable (and undeniably flats are easier to move in) as for usefulness (mostly they seem to be there for Selina to leave scratch marks in people) but the rest of the costume isn't exactly too out there for a catburglar. Nightvision goggles and a skintight outfit. Nothing too fancy.
That's why I said it makes sense when she steals stuff. But what about when she leads Batman to Bane? Or when she asks Bane's men to deliver Lucius Fox when Bruce asks her to go along with his plan? Or in that entire fight at the end? Other than the 2 scenes where she steals, she has no logical reason to be wearing that costume.

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EDIT: Also, love the avatar.
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Originally Posted by shauner111 View Post
That doesn't make sense. You can say the same about Begins, and id disagree. "Oh let's do Year One here! Then stick The Man Who Falls there, then 1 scene of Long Halloween there!" and with TDK "Long Halloween and Killing Joke and Heat..."

It's no different with TDKR as it was with BB or TDK.

I don't find anything cut and paste with Rises.
The difference is that BB and TDK still felt like their own unique stories while in Rises, it didn't feel like the stories they chose meshed that well together in the execution.

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Old 05-12-2013, 11:48 PM   #255
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Ah man, it pains me to read when people say they didn't like the end of Rises. Ive seen the movie so many times now, and everytime I see the end I get tears in my eyes.

But ill agree to disagree because I don't see Star Wars or LOTR as natural conclusive trilogies. There's a reason why theyre able to make prequel films and sequels to those movies. BB is still the beginning of a larger part of the batman mythos, and even if there were more films that followed TDK, it's still a "middle" film in Batmans mythology because he's not a veteran, there' no Robin, he's not older, it's a post-origin story and he's pretty much in his prime in this version. And as we know, TDKR is the end of that version of the story. So to me it's a natural beginning, middle, end trilogy. That's how a trilogy should be done as JGL would say.

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Old 05-12-2013, 11:50 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Shikamaru View Post
The difference is that BB and TDK still felt like their own unique stories while in Rises, it didn't feel like the stories they chose meshed that well together in the execution.
But that's just your opinion, not fact, because I personally thought the stories meshed extremely well and were executed in a very powerful and emotional way.

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Old 05-12-2013, 11:54 PM   #257
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I think it's a genuine capital T Trilogy for this primary reason:

For both sequels, where we find ourselves at the start of the movie is a direct result of the repercussions of choices made in the previous movie. There is a strong causality chain between all the movies.
  • Widespread corruption in the law/system leads to Bruce deciding to become a hero: Batman.
  • Batman is a symbol that threatens the very idea of corruption.
  • Batman's actions lead to an escalation in criminal response: The Joker.
  • The Joker is a symbol that threatens the very idea of heroism.
  • Joker's actions lead to Batman deciding to become the villain.
  • Batman becoming the villain leads to an escalation in the law/the system.

And from there, the story is perfectly tee'd up for a story that deals with consequences and redemption. Which is how a story of this nature should end. What started as a hero's journey ends as a hero's journey.

It's a real trilogy, no way around it. It will be cited in film textbooks for years to come as a prime example of one. Doesn't matter how it was written. It's no less of a trilogy than Star Wars, which made up tons of stuff as it went along. There's this myth out there that Lucas had everything all mapped out and it's complete bull. All he knew was that it was a multi-part saga and that it would be about the son redeeming the father. Luke and Leia were never even meant to be twins in the first place. Just like all Nolan/Goyer knew was that this would be a story about a lost soul finding a means to channel his rage, finding a purpose in that, then being tried and tested, ultimately protecting his city at a great personal cost, and then having to find the will to live again. As Nolan said, this type of story naturally lends itself to a three part structure.

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Old 05-13-2013, 12:03 AM   #258
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I don't feel like I'm being ganged up on. I feel like I have to handle 1000 different conversations at the same time. lol
That's kinda what I meant. It's annoying to keep up with multiple people responding to one post and then you post your response...and someone else replied.

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Things like the stuff I brought up are movie logic that people are just going to have to accept. BB and TDK are not 100% immune from plot holes like that. No story is. But like I also said in the same post you're quoting, the difference is that BB and TDK had that comic book logic in small doses and mainly in the background while there was way too much of it in TDKR - the quantity of those things is why it is a problem in TDKR for me but not in BB & TDK. It doesn't seem to know what it's doing. Sometimes it tries to be more ground and realistic while at other times it has Avengers logic.

As for me saying that it's not intelligent enough, that's exactly why I said that maybe "intelligent" was not the right word to use for what I was talking about. You know what I meant though. I disagree though that it's just as rich as BB and TDK, especially TDK.
Sorry, I must have missed the part where you said that BB and TDK had it in small doses but there was too much in TDKR. My bad.

The only time I can really think of comic book logic would be with the obvious back healing bit.

While I can agree it's probably not as plot rich as TDK, which is almost a non-stop thrill ride with heart, a difficult feat to accomplish, I feel it's rich in a very different way. I feel that TDKR gave us the best look at Bruce Wayne, even more so than Begins. As well, I felt that the parallels and symbolism were far better in TDKR than in either of the previous two installments.

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If you don't mind, I'll read that at a later time. I'm too busy discussing many things with people here on this site (not just on this thread).
Oh, yeah, of course. I was just putting it out there. Shameless self promotion.

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That's why I said it makes sense when she steals stuff. But what about when she leads Batman to Bane? Or when she asks Bane's men to deliver Lucius Fox when Bruce asks her to go along with his plan? Or in that entire fight at the end? Other than the 2 scenes where she steals, she has no logical reason to be wearing that costume.
Well, you can't do that all in a maid's outfit.

Fair enough though but I got the impression, and maybe it was just me but whatever, that Selina was a continuation of the copycats in TDK. She wore the costume because of Batman. Escalation. You've got to have an image now if you want to set yourself apart.

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Old 05-13-2013, 12:10 AM   #259
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Right. I think there were stories that could have been told and placed between each movie. But Nolan chose to tell a Bruce Wayne centric arc, that lasted a trilogy, where he got to the essential stories from the 70 + year history of the character. The origin story, the escalation in criminals/freaks via his arch nemesis: The Joker (as BatLobster put it) and the ending story of an older Batman who becomes an immortal hero by saving the city.

You also have to look at this. Like I said a few posts ago, they knew back in 2004 that if they ever had the chance to end the whole story (which was probably nothing more than a stupid dream back then) then they had the final image of a happy Bruce who's out of Gotham. Now..

The first shot of Christian Bale's Bruce Wayne in the WHOLE trilogy, is a close-up of him in a claustrophobic hell of a prison. He's distressed, sweating from a nightmare, he's depressed, angry, lost. The FINAL shot of the trilogy is a shot of Bruce with a smile on his face, he's free, he's not alone.

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Old 05-13-2013, 12:14 AM   #260
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The first shot of Christian Bale's Bruce Wayne in the WHOLE trilogy, is a close-up of him in a claustrophobic hell of a prison. He's distressed, sweating from a nightmare, he's depressed, angry, lost. The FINAL shot of the trilogy is a shot of Bruce with a smile on his face, he's free, he's not alone.
Or, to even take that a step further...the first shot we see of Bruce Wayne in the whole trilogy is him smiling as a boy with a female companion. Before all the tragedy.

I always thought to see Bruce arrive at that state again at the very end signified that his entire life had finally come full circle to where he had finally triumphed over all the tragedy and could get back to living his life.

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Old 05-13-2013, 12:32 AM   #261
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Or, to even take that a step further...the first shot we see of Bruce Wayne in the whole trilogy is him smiling as a boy with a female companion. Before all the tragedy.

I always thought to see Bruce arrive at that state again at the very end signified that his entire life had finally come full circle to where he had finally triumphed over all the tragedy and could get back to living his life.
we both nailed it.

Great observation. And like the very end, when he's running around in the garden with Rachel, he's free, he's smiling, he's simply living but as a boy. In the outdoors. All of that is mirrored at the end of Rises, but it's the first time he's able to experience this as a man, as an adult.

He's friggin 40 years old. It's quite emotional.

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Old 05-13-2013, 12:47 AM   #262
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^^Also, as an image I found pointed out, he finally found his rare blue flower that grew on the Eastern slopes (they did say that Selina was from the East side, didn't they?).


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Old 05-13-2013, 01:00 AM   #263
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I really felt his heart wasn't here. I don't mean to sound rude but a lot of the film feels very half-ass to me. There are 2 main things that give me this feeling from it.

The first is that it's not as intelligent (don't know if that's the right word) as the first two. What I mean is that Nolan was always careful to have most of his things make sense within the context of the story and not make the audience say "Well, I have to accept that because it's a CBM". Sure that that exists in all CBM's to an extent but you never had to think like that with most things in BB and TDK. Now with TDKR, about half of the movie has that "accept this because it's a CBM" mentality almost to the same extent as The Avengers. You have to constantly give things a pass because it is a CBM. Take Catwoman's costume for example. Why is she wearing it? It makes no sense for her to wear it other than in the 2 scenes where she steals. It doesn't protect her against anything; it doesn't hide her identity; she doesn't use any of the weapons on it. The only reason she seems to be wearing it most of the time is because she is Catwoman and this is a superhero movie. Another example is Bruce healing his back because, well, he just does because it's a CBM. It is that type of Avengers logic that is majorly present in half the film. That's one of the things that makes me feel Nolan's heart wasn't in the right place.

The second reason is the amount of story that TDKR borrows from the comics. It's late and I'm getting tired of typing so I'll keep this short. TDKR has the most story influences out of the 3 films. While the other 2 films did have major story influences, they blended very well together and created 2 stories that are still very unique to the stories the films were based on. TDKR's story feels very cut-and-paste. It feels as if Nolan didn't have a story for TDKR so he looked at the comics and said "Well, what can I find here? Oh, I know. I'll do No Man's Land over here, Knightfall over here, and Dark Knight Returns over there and I got a story!" whereas BB and TDK felt more like "I have these stories here from the comics. How could I create a unique perfect story out of these by meshing them together?" I don't know if I'm making sense or not in what I'm trying to say.
It being the most complex of the three films make it a very intelligent Nolan film, imo. Yes, some elements needed to surely be more developed, but enough was given within the IMAX time restraints. That plus Wayne was giving an ending no other hero will be given in a CBM, I would say it has the most heart and "brain" of all three films.

And the idea that it's the most of the three with more elements from comics even makes it the smartest of the three. The Dark Knight Returns, Knightfall, No Man's Land, The Cult...only a few more inspirations than Batman Begins or The Dark Knight. I think this argument is again, reaching.

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Every studio gives a director a time limit, especially for a franchise as big as Batman. You think TDKR would've still been made by Nolan if he came now in 2013 and told WB he finally has a story? It wouldn't have. Yes, this isn't Sony, which is exactly why Nolan was able to announce he is coming back to do a sequel two years after TDK hit theatres and three years after he finished working on TDK. WB basically gave him a lot of time, something that not too many directors get.
We don't need to worry about "what if" because Nolan had an idea before Inception and finally worked on the film for a 2012 release, lol.

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Old 05-13-2013, 01:28 AM   #264
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The idea that Nolan's heart wasn't in the movie is, frankly, absolute garbage. He was not contractually obliged to come back for a third film unlike Bale and co. (whose original deal was for three films) and wouldn't have put all the work it takes to make a movie of this scale unless he really wanted to. It's fine if you didn't like the movie but don't try to justify your opinion and explain the director's creative choices by assuming he didn't really care about them. Nolan earnestly took the story in places you didn't like. You disagreed with him on some level. It's as simple as that.

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Old 05-13-2013, 01:29 AM   #265
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The idea that Nolan's heart wasn't in the movie is, frankly, absolute garbage. He was not contractually obliged to come back for a third film unlike Bale and co. (whose original deal was for three films) and wouldn't have put all the work it takes to make a movie of this scale unless he really wanted to. It's fine if you didn't like the movie but don't try to justify your opinion and explain the director's creative choices by assuming he didn't really care about them. Nolan earnestly took the story in places you didn't like. You disagreed with him on some level. It's as simple as that.
If only people would say this without thinking of the reasons why they think the film is subpar due to a director not having the heart to work on the film or a studio rushing someone or yadda, yadda, yadda.

This isn't a situation where a director didn't even understand a specific element from the beginning like Raimi and the symbiote/Venom.

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Old 05-13-2013, 02:02 AM   #266
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The idea that Nolan's heart wasn't in the movie is, frankly, absolute garbage. He was not contractually obliged to come back for a third film unlike Bale and co. (whose original deal was for three films) and wouldn't have put all the work it takes to make a movie of this scale unless he really wanted to. It's fine if you didn't like the movie but don't try to justify your opinion and explain the director's creative choices by assuming he didn't really care about them. Nolan earnestly took the story in places you didn't like. You disagreed with him on some level. It's as simple as that.
Nail. On. Head.

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Old 05-13-2013, 02:26 AM   #267
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Or, to even take that a step further...the first shot we see of Bruce Wayne in the whole trilogy is him smiling as a boy with a female companion. Before all the tragedy.

I always thought to see Bruce arrive at that state again at the very end signified that his entire life had finally come full circle to where he had finally triumphed over all the tragedy and could get back to living his life.
great post! i do wonder if alfred will be in bruce and selinas life in the near future though? but the happy ending was the best thing to happen in this whole trilogy, imo. i also wonder if bruce and selina will stay in italy or whatever is in the cards for his future.

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Old 05-13-2013, 02:55 AM   #268
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^^Also, as an image I found pointed out, he finally found his rare blue flower that grew on the Eastern slopes (they did say that Selina was from the East side, didn't they?).

Anne-lina is a rare blue flower and Bruce finds what he's looking for.

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Old 05-13-2013, 06:25 AM   #269
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I apologize if it sounds like that. I have no mean intentions by saying that nor do I hold grudge or anger towards Nolan for TDKR.



I really felt his heart wasn't here. I don't mean to sound rude but a lot of the film feels very half-ass to me. There are 2 main things that give me this feeling from it.

The first is that it's not as intelligent (don't know if that's the right word) as the first two. What I mean is that Nolan was always careful to have most of his things make sense within the context of the story and not make the audience say "Well, I have to accept that because it's a CBM". Sure that that exists in all CBM's to an extent but you never had to think like that with most things in BB and TDK. Now with TDKR, about half of the movie has that "accept this because it's a CBM" mentality almost to the same extent as The Avengers. You have to constantly give things a pass because it is a CBM. Take Catwoman's costume for example. Why is she wearing it? It makes no sense for her to wear it other than in the 2 scenes where she steals. It doesn't protect her against anything; it doesn't hide her identity; she doesn't use any of the weapons on it. The only reason she seems to be wearing it most of the time is because she is Catwoman and this is a superhero movie. Another example is Bruce healing his back because, well, he just does because it's a CBM. It is that type of Avengers logic that is majorly present in half the film. That's one of the things that makes me feel Nolan's heart wasn't in the right place.

The second reason is the amount of story that TDKR borrows from the comics. It's late and I'm getting tired of typing so I'll keep this short. TDKR has the most story influences out of the 3 films. While the other 2 films did have major story influences, they blended very well together and created 2 stories that are still very unique to the stories the films were based on. TDKR's story feels very cut-and-paste. It feels as if Nolan didn't have a story for TDKR so he looked at the comics and said "Well, what can I find here? Oh, I know. I'll do No Man's Land over here, Knightfall over here, and Dark Knight Returns over there and I got a story!" whereas BB and TDK felt more like "I have these stories here from the comics. How could I create a unique perfect story out of these by meshing them together?" I don't know if I'm making sense or not in what I'm trying to say.



Every studio gives a director a time limit, especially for a franchise as big as Batman. You think TDKR would've still been made by Nolan if he came now in 2013 and told WB he finally has a story? It wouldn't have. Yes, this isn't Sony, which is exactly why Nolan was able to announce he is coming back to do a sequel two years after TDK hit theatres and three years after he finished working on TDK. WB basically gave him a lot of time, something that not too many directors get.
Excellent post. 100% agree

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Old 05-13-2013, 10:21 AM   #270
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The difference is that BB and TDK still felt like their own unique stories while in Rises, it didn't feel like the stories they chose meshed that well together in the execution.
Exactly

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Old 05-13-2013, 04:51 PM   #271
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^^Also, as an image I found pointed out, he finally found his rare blue flower that grew on the Eastern slopes (they did say that Selina was from the East side, didn't they?).





I hate that (not the poster, just the idea and gif).


While I get the idea behind it along with the symmetry it feels way too "cute" to me.

Other than tumblr users and fan girls, I find it hard to imagine anyone would want to see Batman/Bruce Wayne in that sort of light. Yeah, okay, the guy got his happy ending, he's done with the Batman (and Bruce Wayne) gig but isn't being an Italy tourist chilling with Anne Hathaway enough? You have to clip him even more? A "dreamy" Bruce and Selina in baby blue with forced similarities to Ra's and Batman Begins just feels so wrong to me.




I wish I could ask Goyer, Nolan and Nolan if that (and all those other connections) were indeed intentional. I bet they'd look at me like I was nuts.

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Old 05-13-2013, 05:16 PM   #272
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I kind of doubt that particular parallel was intentional. But I do think the idea that Bruce sets out on this epic quest to be become Batman, only to come full circle back to living a healthy, fulfilled life as Bruce Wayne is beautiful.

It's the idea that he went on this quest and waged a war, but ultimately he was seeking internal peace all along. He initially hung all those hopes for a normal life on Rachel, but that was never healthy. Selina represents his ability to move on. I have no problem viewing the life of Bruce Wayne in that light.

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Old 05-13-2013, 07:53 PM   #273
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BatLobsterRises, how have you been? I haven't seen you around here in a while. But then again, I haven't been around the TDKR boards for a while. lol

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But that's just your opinion, not fact, because I personally thought the stories meshed extremely well and were executed in a very powerful and emotional way.
Of course it is. I didn't think I'd have to write "in my opinion" after every sentence to make it obvious that I am just stating my opinion.

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The idea that Nolan's heart wasn't in the movie is, frankly, absolute garbage. He was not contractually obliged to come back for a third film unlike Bale and co. (whose original deal was for three films) and wouldn't have put all the work it takes to make a movie of this scale unless he really wanted to. It's fine if you didn't like the movie but don't try to justify your opinion and explain the director's creative choices by assuming he didn't really care about them. Nolan earnestly took the story in places you didn't like. You disagreed with him on some level. It's as simple as that.
Translation: "There is no possible way anyone can have legitimate criticisms towards TDKR and truly believe Nolan really dropped the ball, so everything they take issue with is just them being butthurt that they didn't get the story they wanted."

That's the message that I got from this post. As for why Nolan would come back for a third film in the first place, I already addressed possible reasons for that earlier. I don't see the "evil" in saying that you believe the director's heart wasn't in his project. There are many directors that come back to a beloved franchise of theirs without their heart there despite them not being obligated to do so. George Lucas didn't have to make the prequels; no one forced him to. He came back because he wanted to do Star Wars again. Does this mean that there is no way his heart couldn't have been in the prequels? No. As I'm sure you would agree, his heart was not in there. Going back to Nolan, I also stated 2 reasons as to why I believe his heart wasn't in TDKR - reasons that have nothing to do with the story decisions he made.

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It being the most complex of the three films make it a very intelligent Nolan film, imo. Yes, some elements needed to surely be more developed, but enough was given within the IMAX time restraints. That plus Wayne was giving an ending no other hero will be given in a CBM, I would say it has the most heart and "brain" of all three films.

And the idea that it's the most of the three with more elements from comics even makes it the smartest of the three. The Dark Knight Returns, Knightfall, No Man's Land, The Cult...only a few more inspirations than Batman Begins or The Dark Knight. I think this argument is again, reaching.
I don't believe it is the most complex of the three films. Quite frankly, I find it to be the least complex of the three. In fact, I personally think that it tries to hard to be the most intelligent and complex CBM there is and it fails at it. This may sound really weird to say but to an extent, TDKR feels like the type of CBM that would come out and be a knockoff of TDK. I'll explain what I mean by that. Remember when Donner's Superman came out, was a success, and then you had movies like Supergirl and Steel that tried to copy its classic superhero story feel to obtain the same result? Or when Raimi's Spider-Man came out and you had stuff like the FF movies that tried to replicate its fun cheesy retro style and failed? Or when Iron Man came out and then Green Lantern tried to copy the fun badass action tone that Iron Man had? To me, TDKR feels like it's trying way too hard to be the most intelligent, complex, and realistic CBM there is and fails to do so IMO. I know that probably sounds like a really weird thing to say since it's a sequel to TDK and is done by the same people. Oh boy, I am going to get SO much hate for what I just said. I think I can see the angry mob from my window.

I'm seeing a lot of people use the "We'll never see an ending like that to a CBM ever again" defense. I wonder how many people would still use that defense if they bring back Nolan's Batman for Justice League. I've noticed that a lot of the people that try to defend TDKR with that argument are the same people that keep insisting that Nolan's Batman should be in JL no matter what. But technically, if they do that then it no longer becomes an ending that no CBM would ever give to its hero and I will never have to hear that argument from them again .

To be honest, I would love to see a director's cut of the movie. I heard that around an hour and 20 minutes are cut from the movie including Bane's origin story. I'm really wondering what my opinion would've been of the movie as a whole if so much wasn't cut out. Too bad we'll never know since Nolan doesn't like the idea of one.

I don't think the stories they chose meshed together well though. I'm not saying that they can't mesh together well, just that they didn't in this specific execution. In the first 2 movies, while there were a lot of stuff from stories in the comics there, they meshed together really well that they created 2 great stories that are still very unique from the stories of the comics they were based on (IMO).


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Old 05-13-2013, 08:06 PM   #274
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That's kinda what I meant. It's annoying to keep up with multiple people responding to one post and then you post your response...and someone else replied.
Well, at least someone on here has experienced my pain. lol

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Sorry, I must have missed the part where you said that BB and TDK had it in small doses but there was too much in TDKR. My bad.

The only time I can really think of comic book logic would be with the obvious back healing bit.

While I can agree it's probably not as plot rich as TDK, which is almost a non-stop thrill ride with heart, a difficult feat to accomplish, I feel it's rich in a very different way. I feel that TDKR gave us the best look at Bruce Wayne, even more so than Begins. As well, I felt that the parallels and symbolism were far better in TDKR than in either of the previous two installments.
There's a whole list of things like that that I take issue with. Also, it's not just the back healing bit (which is so ridiculous in my book that it makes the Lazarus Pits looks realistic) but Bruce's injuries as a whole throughout the movie.

In my opinion, Batman Begins gave us the best look at Bruce Wayne while The Dark Knight gave us the best look at Batman.

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Oh, yeah, of course. I was just putting it out there. Shameless self promotion.

Well, you can't do that all in a maid's outfit.

Fair enough though but I got the impression, and maybe it was just me but whatever, that Selina was a continuation of the copycats in TDK. She wore the costume because of Batman. Escalation. You've got to have an image now if you want to set yourself apart.
That would've been fine with me if they just didn't drop that theme altogether. Had TDKR taken place shortly after TDK with Batman still around the whole theme with "freaks" still being there, I would've bought that from Catwoman.

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Old 05-13-2013, 09:24 PM   #275
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Basically, even if TDKR was going to be the last, it should've been treated as just another story in this continuity, even if it would've had a closed ending. However, it tries to pretend as if the entire trilogy is a natural trilogy like Star Wars and LOTR. It is a trilogy, but not the trilogy that TDKR tries to sell itself as.


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100% great post

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