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Old 06-01-2013, 02:22 PM   #651
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

Nah, I saw the whole BND era as a mess. Slacker Pete, acting even more immature than he ever did in his high school days, shoving Carlie down our throats, MJ sleeping with some actor, Pete getting drunk, one night stands...

I do agree that the JMS era was seriously tarnished after JRJR left. I had enjoyed it (again, mainly from the art point of view with JRJR), but the whole Sins Past, which I HATED for many reasons besides Norman sleeping with Gwen, sent the title in a spiral I had not seen since the return of Pete's parents mess.

Quickly, back to Slott, the reason I hold him so high, is he really gets Pete's character (which was really obvious coming out of the BND era), his whole sense and knowledge of Spidey's entire history, and his intricate plotting, setting up threads which pay off down the road.

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Old 06-01-2013, 03:47 PM   #652
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

Well... like I stated earlier, depending on my mood, the list can change... so while I saw lots of negatives during BND, there were lots of positives...

I guess ultimately, positions 8, 9 & 10 can rotate from time to time pending on my mood... but those top 7 are pretty solid, and the last 3 can stay there...


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Old 06-01-2013, 04:17 PM   #653
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

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Well... like I stated earlier, depending on my mood, the list can change... so while I saw lots of negatives during BND, there were lots of positives...

I guess ultimately, positions 8, 9 & 10 can rotate from time to time pending on my mood... but those top 7 are pretty solid, and the last 3 can stay there...


No offense, but I can't think of one positive of BND.

Maybe the Osborn story because I like JRJR and Norm?

Which reminds me, because of BND, they concentrated on Spideu's little corner of the MU to set-up the awful status quo, that they missed a HUGE opportunity of bumping up Spidey's status/involvement in the MU when Norman became in charge of SHIELD/HAMMER.

Mackie was the "reboot" guy after The Gathering of the Five, right? Yeah, not good stuff.

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Old 06-01-2013, 04:35 PM   #654
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

BND had some good quality stories, it was the status quo that sucked.

Same goes for The Clone Saga. Status quo sucked but a lot of the Jurgen stories were good. I was really into Blood Brothers until Gaunt was revealed to not be Harry.

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Old 06-01-2013, 11:32 PM   #655
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

Osborn REALLY needs to find out Pete is Spidey again. Their relationship lacks that tense dynamic now. And Norman is such a boring Avengers (or whoever) villain. He needs to go back to focusing on Pete 24/7.

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Old 06-01-2013, 11:38 PM   #656
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

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It's pretty much tongue in cheek though. Otto has convinced himself that he's some kind of hero but to the reader he's as deranged as ever.

Roles have been reversed, you find yourself rooting against the hero so he gets exposed and soon will be rooting for the Green Goblin. That's what makes this a huge win.
Aloha,
Well said. If you check out some fans when Superior first started, some actually thought that some how Ock had changed and all of his past crimes had somehow magically been erased from existence.
Spidey rules-Doc Ock fools no one but himself

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Old 06-01-2013, 11:44 PM   #657
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That was the Micheline era... but man, once editorial mandate forced him to have Venom in the book all the time, along with guest appearances all over the Marvel universe, as well as the horrid Larsen art... his writing ranks much lower than I would have thought on my all-time list of ASM writers...

1) Stan Lee
2) Marv Wolfman
3) Roger Stern
4) Dan Slott
5) Gerry Conway
6) Len Wein
7) Tom DeFalco (first run)
8) Spider-Brain-Trust
9) JMDeMattheis
10) David Micheline
11) JMS
12) Tom DeFalco (2nd run)
13) Denis O`Neill
14) Howard Mackie

Some of these can be "debatable" pending on my mood, but for the most part... that's pretty accurate to me...

If we're doing favorite writer lists, here's mine.

1. JM DeMatteis
2. David Michelinie (he has no relation to the tire, TMOB )
3. Stan Lee
4. Peter David
5. 80's Roger Stern
6. 80's Tom DeFalco
7. Paul Jenkins
8. Todd Dezago (a strange choice I know, but his Sensational Spider-Ben run with the late 'Ringo is one of my favorites. I think it's criminally underrated. Plus he was really cool with taking time to talk to fans online)
9. JMS pre-Sins Past
10. Gerry Conway

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Old 06-01-2013, 11:49 PM   #658
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

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Osborn REALLY needs to find out Pete is Spidey again. Their relationship lacks that tense dynamic now. And Norman is such a boring Avengers (or whoever) villain. He needs to go back to focusing on Pete 24/7.
Agreed.

I loved the Iron Patriot and Dark Avengers run, but, it is time for him to ride the broomstick or glider again.

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Old 06-02-2013, 01:46 AM   #659
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

I like Norman better now that he doesn't know...


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Old 06-02-2013, 02:13 AM   #660
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

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I like Norman better now that he doesn't know...

I know you think BND is the best thing since the Lee/Ditko stories, but why...? All the intimacy, tension, personal animus and history is gone. It just seems like another costumed super-brawl now.

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Old 06-02-2013, 06:20 AM   #661
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Osborn REALLY needs to find out Pete is Spidey again. Their relationship lacks that tense dynamic now. And Norman is such a boring Avengers (or whoever) villain. He needs to go back to focusing on Pete 24/7.
Well, if it turns out that Pete is swimming around in Norman's head and memories are being exchanged like they were with Pete and Ock, that may end up being one of the end results down the line.

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Aloha,
Well said. If you check out some fans when Superior first started, some actually thought that some how Ock had changed and all of his past crimes had somehow magically been erased from existence.
Spidey rules-Doc Ock fools no one but himself
Pretty much in Superior's first arc. SpOck showed some redeeming qualities by working towards Peter's doctorate, not pursuing MJ and his child abuse memories brought to the surface by Vulture using kids as henchman.

He seemed to be a sympathetic character......then shot Massacre in the face.

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Old 06-02-2013, 10:12 AM   #662
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I know you think BND is the best thing since the Lee/Ditko stories, but why...? All the intimacy, tension, personal animus and history is gone. It just seems like another costumed super-brawl now.
Within 5 years of when Norman finds out his identity, we have three Green Goblin adventures where they all end up the same... Norman gets amnesia... yawn...

The history & tension is still there... GG still remembers his battles... he still remembers that he killed Gwen Stacy, someonewho was important to Spider-Man, and you think that after all these years, Peter wants him to find out again??? Now THAT's tension...

When Norman came back, aside from the nicely done 3 parter by Jenkins where he almost kills Flash, he has become an irrelevant character in the Spidey-verse... and now that he's moved on to "Lex Luther" status, he's even more lame...

The readers know the history... PETER knows the history... his fears of Norman finding out again, based on his own knowledge of how dangerous he can be with that info, makes it very tense...

The few times they've fought since BND has been much more than just "another costumed super-brawl"...

And in case you didn't get it before... when Norman knew... the stories were much more BORING... (Gwen & LSD issues aside).


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Old 06-02-2013, 10:45 AM   #663
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Within 5 years of when Norman finds out his identity, we have three Green Goblin adventures where they all end up the same... Norman gets amnesia... yawn...
Really? Remind me how many times that's happened since Norman returned in '96.


Quote:
The history & tension is still there... GG still remembers his battles... he still remembers that he killed Gwen Stacy, someonewho was important to Spider-Man,
But that's it. He doesn't know she was important to Spidey, because he doesn't know it was Spidey's girlfriend. Now she's just another civilian casualty of their war. Again, the personal dynamic is gone. He probably also doesn't remember murdering Ben Reilly, kidnapping the baby, messing with Flash or buying out the Daily Bugle. Again, like I said, all the personal history with Peter has been forgotten or muted or changed into impersonal moments that don't really mean a lot anymore.

Quote:
and you think that after all these years, Peter wants him to find out again??? Now THAT's tension...
As you would say..... "yawn".....




Quote:
When Norman came back, aside from the nicely done 3 parter by Jenkins where he almost kills Flash, he has become an irrelevant character in the Spidey-verse...
Oh please. What a bunch of baloney. He only orchastrated the clone-saga and killed Ben, kidnapped or killed his baby, kidnapped Pete's Aunt and tormented Peter and Jonah through his take-over of the Daily Bugle. As for no other nice stories? Revelations was awesome, DeMatteis wrote some great Spectacular issues with Norman as Daily Bugle owner including Spec #250, Mark Millar wrote a great 12 part Marvel Knights story in which Norman sold Spidey's personal info to Scorpion. He also kidnapped Peter and held him hostage in a great post-relaunch 2-parter with Mackie and Jenkins. So I don't know what you're talking about. Sorry, they can't all match the stellar quality of One More Day or One Moment In Time.

Quote:
and now that he's moved on to "Lex Luther" status, he's even more lame...
Oh you mean the post-BND stories where he plays the director of renegade Avengers. Yeah, I agree. Gee, I sure miss the days when he was a Spidey villain.

Quote:
The readers know the history... PETER knows the history...
Peter and Norman knowing the history > Peter knowing the history

Quote:
his fears of Norman finding out again, based on his own knowledge of how dangerous he can be with that info, makes it very tense...
Again, yawn.

Quote:
The few times they've fought since BND has been much more than just "another costumed super-brawl"...
I can only remember New Ways to Die and American Son off the top of my head and neither were as memorable as any of his stories from the 60's, 70's or 90's imo.

Quote:
And in case you didn't get it before... when Norman knew... the stories were much more BORING... (Gwen & LSD issues aside).

So THIS was boring? Lol okay, man.


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Old 06-02-2013, 04:18 PM   #664
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man, to this day, I STILL remember buying that issue when it first came out, lying on the floor and reading it and going HOLY S**T!

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Old 06-02-2013, 06:25 PM   #665
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

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Originally Posted by JJJ's Ulcer View Post
Osborn REALLY needs to find out Pete is Spidey again. Their relationship lacks that tense dynamic now. And Norman is such a boring Avengers (or whoever) villain. He needs to go back to focusing on Pete 24/7.
I agree. After all, Norman Osborn being the first villain to truly learn Peter's secret identity, along with his killing Gwen Stacy, is what helped to elevate him to being Spidey's top archenemy to begin with. Granted, him no longer having that knowledge was done, in part, to make him more of a villain for the rest of the MU along the likes of the Kingpin, Doctor Doom, Loki, etc. but at the same time, the sense that Spidey and the Green Goblin's fights were personal got severely diminished in the process.

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Old 06-02-2013, 09:09 PM   #666
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8. Todd Dezago (a strange choice I know, but his Sensational Spider-Ben run with the late 'Ringo is one of my favorites. I think it's criminally underrated. Plus he was really cool with taking time to talk to fans online)

I agree 1,000%! Dezago/'Ringo were sort of the bright spot in the bleak Clone Saga days. I loved they're stories & art. "Ringo was a big loss.

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Old 06-02-2013, 09:12 PM   #667
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man, to this day, I STILL remember buying that issue when it first came out, lying on the floor and reading it and going HOLY S**T!
Man, that must have been cool! Especially since that was obviously pre-Internet days!

The furthest back I go is an 8 year-old who mainly knows Spidey from the 60's cartoon reruns, picking up my 2nd issue of Amazing to see Spidey had a girlfriend and she gets killed by the Green Goblin!

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Old 06-02-2013, 09:33 PM   #668
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Really? Remind me how many times that's happened since Norman returned in '96.
Remind me of how many "good" Norman stories have there been from 1996 to 2008?

I can think of one...

He was a better villain when he was dead...

Yawn...

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But that's it. He doesn't know she was important to Spidey, because he doesn't know it was Spidey's girlfriend. Now she's just another civilian casualty of their war. Again, the personal dynamic is gone. He probably also doesn't remember murdering Ben Reilly, kidnapping the baby, messing with Flash or buying out the Daily Bugle. Again, like I said, all the personal history with Peter has been forgotten or muted or changed into impersonal moments that don't really mean a lot anymore.
But Peter remembers... all of it... and how does this take anything away from how "evil" Norman is to Peter again?

I fail to see how he's been rendered an ineffective villain...

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As you would say..... "yawn".....
Different strokes man... I just answered a question YOU asked... I didn't ask to be villified for my answers...

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Oh please. What a bunch of baloney. He only orchastrated the clone-saga and killed Ben, kidnapped or killed his baby, kidnapped Pete's Aunt and tormented Peter and Jonah through his take-over of the Daily Bugle. As for no other nice stories? Revelations was awesome, DeMatteis wrote some great Spectacular issues with Norman as Daily Bugle owner including Spec #250, Mark Millar wrote a great 12 part Marvel Knights story in which Norman sold Spidey's personal info to Scorpion. He also kidnapped Peter and held him hostage in a great post-relaunch 2-parter with Mackie and Jenkins. So I don't know what you're talking about. Sorry, they can't all match the stellar quality of One More Day or One Moment In Time.
Man... your panties are awfully bunched up... just because I don't find those stories listed off as "gems" doesn't mean I should get insulted for it or lumped into some kind of OMD or OMIT lover... which I NEVER said I liked.

So please... if you can't ask questions where you won't like my answers, stop asking me questions. Because I can't be bothered with your playground insults.

That last line of yours really speaks volumes about your maturity level...

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Oh you mean the post-BND stories where he plays the director of renegade Avengers. Yeah, I agree. Gee, I sure miss the days when he was a Spidey villain.
So do I... so do I...

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Peter and Norman knowing the history > Peter knowing the history
I disagree. It was awesome in the begining, but even Stan knew that Norman had to go because he couldn't do anything with him other than give him "amnesia"... so he died.

He should have stayed buried.

Because aside from that one Jenkins story, oh... and wait... all those other stellar gems that you think are so awesome, Norman Osborn as the Green Goblin has become a pale shadow of his former self.

Disagree if you'd like... it's your opinion as this one is mine.

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Again, yawn.
Yes... I find your post quite prosaic and boring... just like any GG stories from 1996 to 2008 (barring the ONE exception).

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I can only remember New Ways to Die and American Son off the top of my head and neither were as memorable as any of his stories from the 60's, 70's or 90's imo.
Nothing is as memorable from his stories from the 60's & 70's... New Ways to Die was far more entertaining (to me) than any of those boring stories you listed above...

But again... it's an opinion I'm allowed to have... so thanks in advance for respecting it.

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So THIS was boring? Lol okay, man.

OMG... did I really have to list off the actual issue where he finds out as "not boring"? I figured it would be implied...

But since you feel like bashing me for whatever reasons... go ahead.

I've had more reasonable AND respectful debates with a titmouse.

Thanks for playing.

Have a nice day.


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Old 06-02-2013, 10:13 PM   #669
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TMOB, it's ironic you critcize others for "playground insults" when you have such a dismissive and condescending tone towards those who disagree with you. Perhaps you should look at the language in your own post for why you got the reply you did. So yes, different strokes for different folks. But it seems you delight a bit in pushing people's buttons when they don't agree with you (especially about all the drastic changes introduced by BND), but when they respond in kind you act all taken aback and indignant as if you can't understand what you did to elicit such a reaction. I won't press the matter further, but have a great day too. Perhaps you can spend it reading some GOOD Norman stories, like the ones I recommended.

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Old 06-02-2013, 10:16 PM   #670
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Remind me of how many "good" Norman stories have there been from 1996 to 2008?

I can think of one...

He was a better villain when he was dead...

Yawn...



But Peter remembers... all of it... and how does this take anything away from how "evil" Norman is to Peter again?

I fail to see how he's been rendered an ineffective villain...



Different strokes man... I just answered a question YOU asked... I didn't ask to be villified for my answers...



Man... your panties are awfully bunched up... just because I don't find those stories listed off as "gems" doesn't mean I should get insulted for it or lumped into some kind of OMD or OMIT lover... which I NEVER said I liked.

So please... if you can't ask questions where you won't like my answers, stop asking me questions. Because I can't be bothered with your playground insults.

That last line of yours really speaks volumes about your maturity level...



So do I... so do I...



I disagree. It was awesome in the begining, but even Stan knew that Norman had to go because he couldn't do anything with him other than give him "amnesia"... so he died.

He should have stayed buried.

Because aside from that one Jenkins story, oh... and wait... all those other stellar gems that you think are so awesome, Norman Osborn as the Green Goblin has become a pale shadow of his former self.

Disagree if you'd like... it's your opinion as this one is mine.



Yes... I find your post quite prosaic and boring... just like any GG stories from 1996 to 2008 (barring the ONE exception).



Nothing is as memorable from his stories from the 60's & 70's... New Ways to Die was far more entertaining (to me) than any of those boring stories you listed above...

But again... it's an opinion I'm allowed to have... so thanks in advance for respecting it.



OMG... did I really have to list off the actual issue where he finds out as "not boring"? I figured it would be implied...

But since you feel like bashing me for whatever reasons... go ahead.

I've had more reasonable AND respectful debates with a titmouse.

Thanks for playing.

Have a nice day.

Actually, I want to clear something up that I said before...

The 60's GG stories after he knew Peter's identity were not boring... just the endings.

Amnesia.

Stan played that card 3 times in a 5 year span... largely in part because he didn't know what else to do with the character.

Similarly, after Captain Stacy died, Gwen became a two-dimensional "I hate Spider-Man" character that nobody knew what to do with.

So ASM #121/122 came to be... it was shocking to readers, and also freeing up Marvel with characters that had become somewhat prosaic. Norman's appearances were always intense, but once he became the "Goblin", aside from death, there was no other way around "amnesia".

So let's flashforward to 1996.

Norman was a regular character on the Spider-Man: TAS cartoon that was watched by MANY fans, old and young alike... but the younger fans might not have known much about him in the comics aside from the fact that he was the original Green Govlin.

So the Clone Saga is moving along painfully to regular readers, and sales are plummeting... and while it's accepted as fact that Norman "orchestrated" the whole debacle... that seemed too much like a "quick fix" and a "cheap ressurection" by Marvel to a cynical 29 year old... but man o'man, that must have been awesome to a young 14 year old Spider-Man reader...

So maybe all those stories listed off by JJ's Ulcer were "great" to him... because he's one of those younger readers... but myself, they were fluff, and not very entertaining.

Ultimately, it all comes from perspective... and sometimes, I lose track of that.

Cheers.


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Old 06-02-2013, 10:18 PM   #671
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

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TMOB, it's ironic you critcize others for "playground insults" when you have such a dismissive and condescending tone towards those who disagree with you. Perhaps you should look at the language in your own post for why you got the reply you did. So yes, different strokes for different folks. But it seems you delight a bit in pushing people's buttons when they don't agree with you (especially about all the drastic changes introduced by BND), but when they respond in kind you act all taken aback and indignant as if you can't understand what you did to elicit such a reaction. I won't press the matter further, but have a great day too. Perhaps you can spend it reading some GOOD Norman stories, like the ones I recommended.
I'm gonna read the 2 part Chameleon story in Avenging Spider-Man.

Cheers...


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Old 06-02-2013, 10:24 PM   #672
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

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Actually, I want to clear something up that I said before...

The 60's GG stories after he knew Peter's identity were not boring... just the endings.

Amnesia.

Stan played that card 3 times in a 5 year span... largely in part because he didn't know what else to do with the character.

Similarly, after Captain Stacy died, Gwen became a two-dimensional "I hate Spider-Man" character that nobody knew what to do with.

So ASM #121/122 came to be... it was shocking to readers, and also freeing up Marvel with characters that had become somewhat prosaic. Norman's appearances were always intense, but once he became the "Goblin", aside from death, there was no other way around "amnesia".

So let's flashforward to 1996.

Norman was a regular character on the Spider-Man: TAS cartoon that was watched by MANY fans, old and young alike... but the younger fans might not have known much about him in the comics aside from the fact that he was the original Green Govlin.

So the Clone Saga is moving along painfully to regular readers, and sales are plummeting... and while it's accepted as fact that Norman "orchestrated" the whole debacle... that seemed too much like a "quick fix" and a "cheap ressurection" by Marvel to a cynical 29 year old... but man o'man, that must have been awesome to a young 14 year old Spider-Man reader...

So maybe all those stories listed off by JJ's Ulcer were "great" to him... because he's one of those younger readers... but myself, they were fluff, and not very entertaining.

Ultimately, it all comes from perspective... and sometimes, I lose track of that.

Cheers.


Likewise, maybe a 45 year old Spidey fan stuck in the past only likes BND because it makes Peter single again, because "that's the way it should be." See what happens when you make assumptions about people you don't know?

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Old 06-02-2013, 10:56 PM   #673
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

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So let's flashforward to 1996.

Norman was a regular character on the Spider-Man: TAS cartoon that was watched by MANY fans, old and young alike... but the younger fans might not have known much about him in the comics aside from the fact that he was the original Green Govlin.

So the Clone Saga is moving along painfully to regular readers, and sales are plummeting... and while it's accepted as fact that Norman "orchestrated" the whole debacle... that seemed too much like a "quick fix" and a "cheap ressurection" by Marvel to a cynical 29 year old... but man o'man, that must have been awesome to a young 14 year old Spider-Man reader...

...or a slightly less cynical 31 year old that jumped in at the time of
Norman's death, so only read Norman's Gobby in back issues or reprints, and was happy to see his favorite villain back...

...plus liking it a hell of a lot better than being told the Spider-Man he had been reading about for the past 20 years was only a clone...


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Old 06-02-2013, 11:11 PM   #674
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

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Likewise, maybe a 45 year old Spidey fan stuck in the past only likes BND because it makes Peter single again, because "that's the way it should be." See what happens when you make assumptions about people you don't know?
I didn't mean to make it sound mean... my sentiment was genuine... I would think it must have been awesome to a younger fan...

Just sayin...



Also, I like the current Spider-Man... since Slott took over, it's been awesome... and yes, there are elements of the past, but still moving forward.


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Last edited by Themanofbat; 06-02-2013 at 11:17 PM.
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Old 06-02-2013, 11:15 PM   #675
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

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...or a slightly less cynical 31 year old that jumped in at the time of
Norman's death, so only read Norman's Gobby in back issues or reprints, and was happy to see his favorite villain back...

...plus liking it a hell of a lot better than being told the Spider-Man he had been reading about for the past 20 years was only a clone...

If they had started to play the Norman card earlier on... leading the reader on with slight clues... and then BAM!!! It's Norman. That might have been easier for me to swallow, but it came out of nowhere... and what followed was really disappointing to me as an older reader at that tome...

And I wasn't fond about reading the last 20 years of fake Spider-Man neither... I would have preferred a better fleshed out solution...


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