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Old 07-28-2013, 06:42 PM   #951
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

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Even though it was a crappy story, OMD was the best thing to happen to Spider-Man in 20 + years...



Oh, TMoB... you say the funniest things.

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Old 07-28-2013, 07:31 PM   #952
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I think him joining the avengers and having his family move in with them was the smartest thing he had done in a long time...it solidified his hero role in the general public and made Mary Jane and Aunt May more immediate characters in other books...it was smartly written.

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Old 07-28-2013, 07:49 PM   #953
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

Joining the Avengers, yes. Moving in with them, no. I didn't like the idea of MJ and Aunt May becoming Avengers support staff when they are so much more than that. I didn't like the unmasking either. It's painting yourself into a corner. They did a lot of that to the point where OMD almost became a necessity to fix all of those mistakes.

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Old 07-28-2013, 08:33 PM   #954
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Heart Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

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Oh, TMoB... you say the funniest things.
I'll be here all week...


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Old 07-28-2013, 08:36 PM   #955
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

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Even though it was a crappy story, OMD was the best thing to happen to Spider-Man in 20 + years...


TMOB, I love ya, but, um.... no.

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Old 07-28-2013, 10:05 PM   #956
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

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Joining the Avengers, yes. Moving in with them, no. I didn't like the idea of MJ and Aunt May becoming Avengers support staff when they are so much more than that. I didn't like the unmasking either. It's painting yourself into a corner. They did a lot of that to the point where OMD almost became a necessity to fix all of those mistakes.
All of those stories were stupid too. It's clear JMS's first couple years were a lot stronger than his last couple (starting around Sins Past).

However, I believe OMD was already in the pipeline when the unmasking happened. They knew where they were going with it.

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Old 07-28-2013, 10:12 PM   #957
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

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Even though it was a crappy story, OMD was the best thing to happen to Spider-Man in 20 + years...

I doubt even Quesada believes that. Sometimes I really don't get you. If you really believe that... wow. Talk about drinking the single Spidey Kool-Aid at all costs.

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Old 07-28-2013, 10:56 PM   #958
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

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All of those stories were stupid too. It's clear JMS's first couple years were a lot stronger than his last couple (starting around Sins Past).

However, I believe OMD was already in the pipeline when the unmasking happened. They knew where they were going with it.
I think it was more of an out than it was a payoff. They knew those moves could backfire and it did. So we all had to suffer through OMD because they were so brazen about it.

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Old 07-29-2013, 10:03 AM   #959
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

If you go back and read the interviews around the time of Civil War a lot of the cryptic statements were about Spider-Man and the unmasking, and going on the run, and eventually getting remasked...
They knew exactly what they were doing...

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Old 07-29-2013, 11:12 AM   #960
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Yeah it wasn't an out. Have to agree with KM here. Remember OMD was originally going to be a JMS story, but instead of a Mephisto deal, Pete was going to go back in time to his college days and drop a dime on Harry for being a smackhead and save Gwen (yes, BND could have been worse. Gwen was supposed to come back). Quesada disagreed, JMS threw a tantrum and they basically rewrote the story they had been planning. But the broad idea of a marriage reset had been brewing long before the unmasking. It's just the details that came later.

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Old 07-30-2013, 12:40 PM   #961
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

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Remember OMD was originally going to be a JMS story, but instead of a Mephisto deal, Pete was going to go back in time to his college days and drop a dime on Harry for being a smackhead and save Gwen (yes, BND could have been worse. Gwen was supposed to come back). Quesada disagreed, JMS threw a tantrum and they basically rewrote the story they had been planning. But the broad idea of a marriage reset had been brewing long before the unmasking. It's just the details that came later.
I thought it was still going to be a Mephisto deal, but the history-change in question was going to be, as you say, saving Harry from drugs. I think in JMS's words that would have enabled Marvel to bring back Gwen if they so desired but not necessarily demanded that they do so (although I think JMS was certainly leaning in that direction, since a no-drugs Harry doesn't cause Norman to revert to his GG persona in ASM #121).

JMS's error was in trying to write a logical change of history to undo the marriage, when all Quesada wanted was a magical hand-wave (which drove JMS nuts).

Ah well. Old tales.

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Old 07-30-2013, 01:13 PM   #962
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

I'd have hated either way but would have taken JMS' approach over Quesada's. I can at least appreciate when a story makes sense, even if I don't care for the story. Quesada's was a bad story that did bad things that made no sense. And his art wasn't that good either.

Plus, even with the marriage ended, I'd have likely been curious enough about Gwen's return to keep going for at least a trial time period.

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Old 07-30-2013, 01:34 PM   #963
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

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I thought it was still going to be a Mephisto deal, but the history-change in question was going to be, as you say, saving Harry from drugs. I think in JMS's words that would have enabled Marvel to bring back Gwen if they so desired but not necessarily demanded that they do so (although I think JMS was certainly leaning in that direction, since a no-drugs Harry doesn't cause Norman to revert to his GG persona in ASM #121).

JMS's error was in trying to write a logical change of history to undo the marriage, when all Quesada wanted was a magical hand-wave (which drove JMS nuts).

Ah well. Old tales.
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I'd have hated either way but would have taken JMS' approach over Quesada's. I can at least appreciate when a story makes sense, even if I don't care for the story. Quesada's was a bad story that did bad things that made no sense. And his art wasn't that good either.

Plus, even with the marriage ended, I'd have likely been curious enough about Gwen's return to keep going for at least a trial time period.
JMS' ending would have DELETED over 30 YEARS of Spider-Man history.

EVERY story from ASM #96/98 onward would have never counted.

As bad as OMD was, at least it didn't take away from any of the stories that we've read. Say what you want about "married" versus "living together", but all those stories occured within canon, with Pete & MJ as a couple. The JMS ending would have meant that none of it happened.... which would have been FAR WORSE than the **** we got with OMD... in MY opinion

JMS's error was that he tried to "undo" most of the crap stories that he wrote during the last 3 years of his tenure as ASM writer.


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Old 07-30-2013, 01:40 PM   #964
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

I just pretend that OMD never happened and Pete and MJ just broke up after Back in Black.

Make believe is fun.


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Old 07-30-2013, 04:24 PM   #965
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No 121 means no Jackal, no Ben, no Kaine...
Granted a LOT more and devastating effects would have happened, but still...

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Old 07-30-2013, 06:08 PM   #966
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

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JMS' ending would have DELETED over 30 YEARS of Spider-Man history.

EVERY story from ASM #96/98 onward would have never counted.

As bad as OMD was, at least it didn't take away from any of the stories that we've read. Say what you want about "married" versus "living together", but all those stories occured within canon, with Pete & MJ as a couple. The JMS ending would have meant that none of it happened.... which would have been FAR WORSE than the **** we got with OMD... in MY opinion

JMS's error was that he tried to "undo" most of the crap stories that he wrote during the last 3 years of his tenure as ASM writer.

This is true. JMS's solution would have wiped out EVERYTHING I read since I started back in '73! And I think JMS's story still had the Mephisto deal, so it was actually worse than Joe Q's idea. As nonsensical as it was, it left the stories more or less in tact.

Yeah, and it made things worse because JMS thought he could write crap like Sins Past, because he thought he was going to have it erased.

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Old 07-30-2013, 06:29 PM   #967
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Sins Past was supposed to be Peter's kids, not Norman's. Editorial interference was the bane of Spider-comics in the late 00's.

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Old 07-30-2013, 06:42 PM   #968
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

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JMS' ending would have DELETED over 30 YEARS of Spider-Man history.

EVERY story from ASM #96/98 onward would have never counted.

As bad as OMD was, at least it didn't take away from any of the stories that we've read. Say what you want about "married" versus "living together", but all those stories occured within canon, with Pete & MJ as a couple. The JMS ending would have meant that none of it happened.... which would have been FAR WORSE than the **** we got with OMD... in MY opinion

JMS's error was that he tried to "undo" most of the crap stories that he wrote during the last 3 years of his tenure as ASM writer.

Then maybe instead of dividing Spider-Man's readership and giving the finger to 90s fans, they'd tick off the rest of you and everything would have been undone and Spider-Man would be readable. Because as far as I'm concerned, if they erased the marriage and the stories that came as a result (and no, OMIT's bull crap excuses do not erase that fact) then they can burn the whole rest of his history for all I care. They already ruined what I consider the best years of his life. I don't have any attachment to the rest that came before.

And if the idea of that upsets you in any way then you might have an inkling of what it was and is for people like me. Only for me it's a freaking reality.

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Old 07-30-2013, 06:45 PM   #969
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

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Sins Past was supposed to be Peter's kids, not Norman's. Editorial interference was the bane of Spider-comics in the late 00's.
And I would have loved to see that.

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Old 07-30-2013, 06:49 PM   #970
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Sins Past was supposed to be Peter's kids, not Norman's. Editorial interference was the bane of Spider-comics in the late 00's.
And that would of have been worse...

I mean the whole thing back then is worring Pete was too old because he's married... so you're going to give him ADULT KIDS??!!

I don't care who the father is, a retcon of fast growing twins from Gwen's past was/is IDIOTIC!!!

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Old 07-30-2013, 06:59 PM   #971
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Eh, whatever at this point. Like I said, I've made it a policy to ignore most of that stuff. Honestly, I think Marvel is heading towards a massive reboot in the next decade.

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Old 07-30-2013, 07:43 PM   #972
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

Tonight, on a whim, I decided to download "No One Dies" - the two-part Amazing Spider-Man story from Dan Slott and Marcos Martin that covered issues #655-#656 - on Comixology. And damn, that might just have been one of the best Spider-Man stories I've ever read.

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Old 07-30-2013, 07:59 PM   #973
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Old 07-30-2013, 08:13 PM   #974
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

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Tonight, on a whim, I decided to download "No One Dies" - the two-part Amazing Spider-Man story from Dan Slott and Marcos Martin that covered issues #655-#656 - on Comixology. And damn, that might just have been one of the best Spider-Man stories I've ever read.
It's certainly in the conversation. Best Spidey story of the previous 20 years.

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Old 07-30-2013, 10:56 PM   #975
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Default Re: The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

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Tonight, on a whim, I decided to download "No One Dies" - the two-part Amazing Spider-Man story from Dan Slott and Marcos Martin that covered issues #655-#656 - on Comixology. And damn, that might just have been one of the best Spider-Man stories I've ever read.
Aloha,
Agreed.
Even before his Gung fu training, Peter operated from a code of conduct regarding his powers and what he should do with them. No One Dies reflected Peter at his highest principles.
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